Do you want experience from combat?

[Gromnir]

 

 

Always the clash of GNS. The venn diagram never intersecting on an area everyone can agree upon. 

 

With PS:T, the focus was clearly on the narrative side. A focus that served it well. It did very little to address the gamist and threw the simulation aspect on its head. It served as a vehicle for narrative, and a clever take on simulationist mechanics. Not for everyone. The narrative was a cut above the rest, however.

 

 

ps:t were our favorite crpg. being our favorite does not mean that we cannot recognize flaws. one glaring flaw were the xp mechanic. wisdom, a stat which were the prime attribute o' no playable ps:t TNO class, were an xp Multiplier. not only were many quest rewards tied directly to a minimum wisdom score, but having a high wisdom resulted in potential more than 33% improvement in all xp gained in the game. playing as a high strength and low intelligence/wisdom fighter, as were a viable and enjoyable build in all othe ie games, resulted in a player not only missing a significant amount o' wisdom specific content, but it created an xp penalty for those players foolish enough not to boost wisdom. ps:t, as much as we loved the game and still frequent replay it as a high wisdom, high charisma player, were a classic example o' developer schadenfreude.  you wanna play a vanilla fighter in ps:t? HA! joke is on you, 'cause not only does ps:t combat suck, but you is getting a functional xp penalty for playing as a traditional fighter build.

 

great game, but with some bad mechanics. nothing precludes a great game from having some flaws.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Honestly I would call Ps:T a adventure game with rpg elements. Most people played with max wis/int/char anyway

 

most folks who played it later than winter 1999 likely did go wisdom/int/charisma route... which were most people, 'cause initial sales sucked, and the memory leak made near unplayable for many anyways. again, not a perfect game, but recall that the game starts you off as a fighter in a d&d game. am expecting that many folks played game for a goodly bit as a fighter, if not most folks who were just starting the game with 0 board feedback or walk-through.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: can't spell walk-through? sheesh. in any event, ps:t, as fantastic as it were , were horrible for exp mechanics, balance, etc.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Gromnir

[Cantousent]

I loved PS:T also, but I think of it as a true work of art in the sense that individual elements might seem out of place or outright crazy, but the experience as a whole changed the way I looked at video games.  I don't want another PS:T, although I did pledge at... I think the silver level or something for the ToN game.  What I expect in PoE is fun combat and a well done story.  If it accomplishes that, I'll be happy.  I don't expect something transcendental.  Just a lot of fun.

[Gromnir]

I loved PS:T also, but I think of it as a true work of art in the sense that individual elements might seem out of place or outright crazy, but the experience as a whole changed the way I looked at video games.  I don't want another PS:T, although I did pledge at... I think the silver level or something for the ToN game.  What I expect in PoE is fun combat and a well done story.  If it accomplishes that, I'll be happy.  I don't expect something transcendental.  Just a lot of fun.

no disagreement. is more than a few folks on these boards who is sick o' us waxing poetic concerning ravel/ei-vene/mebbeth/marta character. no matter what criticisms we got for chris avellone, the development o' that "single" character changed the way we look at crpg writing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zansatsu]

 

Just a point I'd like to make about metagaming and the rewards in this game. Loot is hand placed so it never changes and never moves so if you're not into crafting saying loot is an incentive for exploration and combat may hold true to some but I'm confident others will just wait till great people like Sensuki and others find everything and share it with us as they are want to do, then just go to the specific area's and get the specific things they want. The beastiary is a really cool Idea but again all of it will be up on Wiki in about a week or two and then why would I need to fill it out. That being said I am still really excited for this game and want to play it. Just think it could do better but that's my opinion.

 

Well yeah people will metagame around items, josh stated that their are also special unique skills that you get from questing so thats another thing people will use for meta character builds. Most people replay RPG's to try out different class combinations.

I agree but in this instance you can already try all the class combinations you want the first time through. Oh well it is still going to be a great play through at least once.

[Stun]

am still mystified 'by his inability to grasp the concept behind loss o' kill xp for stealthily moving past combat encounters to complete quests when xp is being awarded for kills.

And I'm still mystified by Gromnir's inability to grasp the concept behind loss of Quest XP for the Stealthy playstyle but not for, say, talking. Especially since he seems to be championing the false notion that the Quest XP-only system rewards all playstyles equally. And then of course, the utter subject-changing and red herrings he'd respond with whenever ANYONE pointed this out to him. (well, that part's not so mystifying)

 

Hey Gromnir, Can you complete any quest in the beta via stealth?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

In fairness Stun wan't aware at the time of Josh's statement and corrected himself.

It'd be more accurate to say that Josh changed the design.

 

Because just a few months ago This was the plan

PC Gamer: Party combat is a big part of the game, but you’ve also said it’s possible to play the game solo. Do you think this will be fun, or is it for masochists only?

 

Josh Sawyer: It’ll be hard. I’m sure people will find certain classes and builds that will make it easier than others. Especially once you’ve already played through the game, and you have the metagame knowledge, it becomes a lot easier. I think the enjoyment comes from the fact that it’s a unique challenge on its own. Some people will say, I don’t know how to play through this whole game with a priest or a wizard, but I’m going to figure out how to do it. It will be pretty challenging, especially at certain points. We’re planning to use a sliding experience system, so if you have a single character they’ll gain levels more quickly than if they were with an entire party.

But apparently it was neither difficult nor expensive to change course, and balance each XP reward, for every quest, in every area of the game to account for each of the six party number size choices the player has. Yet we are lead to believe that adding XP rewards for this game's hand placed encounters and then balancing the game around that too, is too difficult and would lead Obsidian to...bankruptcy or cause its employees to suffer post traumatic stress disorder, or whatever nonsensical gibberish Gromnir is spouting today. Edited August 31, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

am still mystified 'by his inability to grasp the concept behind loss o' kill xp for stealthily moving past combat encounters to complete quests when xp is being awarded for kills.

And I'm still mystified by Gromnir's inability to grasp the concept behind loss of Quest XP for the Stealthy playstyle but not for, say, talking. Especially since he seems to be championing the false notion that the Quest XP-only system rewards all playstyles equally. And then of course, the utter subject-changing and red herrings he'd respond with whenever ANYONE pointed this out to him. (well, that part's not so mystifying)

 

Hey Gromnir, Can you complete any quest in the beta via stealth?

 

sure we can complete quest via stealth. we can stealth past bugs and spiders and all kinda stuff. we can use stealth lots. you asking stoopid on purpose... again? or perhaps are you asking a silly question such as can we complete a quest via nothing but stealth. *chuckle*  we would observe that such a query is rather pointless and is one very good reason for implementing quest xp as it don't discriminate or punish based on how we accomplish goals.  but thanks for showing just how limited you wanna be in this discussion.

 

oh, and you can complete solo, and you will level faster, just not enough to unbalance. you get +5%. yippie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

sure we can complete quest via stealth. we can stealth past bugs and spiders and all kinda stuff.

Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave. They must be removed if you wish to enter the cave and complete the Ogre quest. You also can't stealthily complete the Dragon Egg quest because the conversation with the mercenary party that guards the nest auto-triggers when you approach. The missing daughter quest can't be completed via stealth due to dialogue triggers as well, and the Nymtha quest can't be completed via stealth because first it requires dialogue, and then if the dialogue fails, it requires combat.

 

we can use stealth lots.

We weren't discussing whether or not you can use stealth, but whether or not the Quest-only XP system rewards the stealth playstyle.

 

you asking stoopid on purpose... again? or perhaps are you asking a silly question such as can we complete a quest via nothing but stealth. *chuckle*  we would observe that such a query is rather pointless and is one very good reason for implementing quest xp as it don't discriminate or punish based on how we accomplish goals.  but thanks for showing just how limited you wanna be in this discussion.

 

oh, and you can complete solo, and you will level faster, just not enough to unbalance. you get +5%. yippie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Nope. Just poking giant holes in your feeble argument, and all the witless insults you toss don't change that. Edited August 31, 2014 by Stun

[Cantousent]

I'm not stepping in the middle of a brawl, but I did think I would mention that I don't really believe it's that important at this point to say that stealth doesn't have any specific quests associated with it in the beta.  Even if the release date were closer, I would still think of the beta as being an unfinished representation of the completed work.  I don't think we should have an objective oriented quest based system, but rather a results oriented system.  In that case, there are many possibilities for rewarding stealth over dialogue or combat, and I like that idea.  I don't see what it really has to do with combat XP per se, but I do hope to see a robust system that takes into account a variety of styles.  I just don't think that the absence of evidence of reward for one particular style in the beta means that one can't exist in the finished product.

[Helm]

So you think that Obsidian should back down from one of their goals and promises that they set in during KS campaign, which was "Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.". Or do you think that asymmetry should go other way, meaning that non-combat solution should produce more experience than combat solutions?

Aha. Let us once again look at what they promised us in context:

 

 "Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. [...] They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one."

When I level up I can spend points on separate combat and non-combat abilities. Sounds great!

 

"Combat can be avoided with non-combat skills. [...] Perhaps you can re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery to prevent any further undead from rising, or maybe figuring out a way across a ruined bridge will always avoid the bandits on this side of the river."

If I re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery using a non-combat ability, then I don't need to fight the skellies! Wow, that sounds fantastic! But do I get (extra) XP for doing so?

 

"Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count."

I would still get XP for using my head and re-sanctifying the desecrated cemetery and not just obliterating them in close combat. Hell yeah!

 

 

 

Design Goals

In putting together our non-combat system, we have made a list of goals for the design of these skills and the rules they need to follow.

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.
• Non-combat skills do not use the same resources as combat skills. You don't spend the same stuff for a non-combat skill as you do for combat skills. Some don't use anything at all to use, so you will never find yourself unable to blast an opponent if you get caught sneaking.
• All non-combat skills are useful. If we add lockpicking to the game, we will make sure that there are locks to pick and worthwhile rewards for getting past them.
• All non-combat skills can be used frequently. If you take disarm traps as a skill, you should expect more than two traps in the entire game world. Frequency of application has a large impact on how useful something is.
• Combat can be avoided with non-combat skills. There will often be ways to avoid fighting. Yes, we will have the standard methods of talking your way out of a fight or sneaking around an encounter, but there will be other ways too. Perhaps you can re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery to prevent any further undead from rising, or maybe figuring out a way across a ruined bridge will always avoid the bandits on this side of the river.
• Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

 

 

 

It sounds like the typical description of an IE game actually (maybe with just a bit more flavor though). I am not surprised that the IE fans threw their money at Obsidian after reading this, because they promised to reward us accordingly for our accomplishments and promised us that non-combat skills can be used to avoid combat in certain situations. And most important of all, they promised to reward these choices accordingly. I am not seeing any of this in the game.

 

"We will only reward the player for doing the bidding of villagers. You can only get XP by doing these quests and nothing else. Our combat is not rewarded accordingly, so you can just skip it (almost always possible) with your always-on stealth ability. Oh, and I hate Baldur's gate, so don't expect anything similar. Trollolololol"

This is what we got. Sounds like a classic bait and switch if you ask me. I am very disappointed.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Helm

[Gromnir]

I'm not stepping in the middle of a brawl, but I did think I would mention that I don't really believe it's that important at this point to say that stealth doesn't have any specific quests associated with it in the beta.  Even if the release date were closer, I would still think of the beta as being an unfinished representation of the completed work.  I don't think we should have an objective oriented quest based system, but rather a results oriented system.  In that case, there are many possibilities for rewarding stealth over dialogue or combat, and I like that idea.  I don't see what it really has to do with combat XP per se, but I do hope to see a robust system that takes into account a variety of styles.  I just don't think that the absence of evidence of reward for one particular style in the beta means that one can't exist in the finished product.

you are trying to be rational. that Will fail.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

 

Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave. 

 

which complete ignores that we can sneak past all the spiders in the cave. admitted, we haven't tried to stealth past the ones outside the cave. *shrug* doesn't matter. if we sneak past spiders and then kill or use dialogue to finish the ogre quest, why should we be penalized? we accomplished the goal. is bizarre that you can't grasp this basic concept. your stealth-only resolution fixation complete ignores one o' the benefits o' quest only xp: the developers don't discriminate, nor do they care how you accomplish the quest. refusal to provide a numerical advantage to one resolution v. another is one o' the chief benefits o' quest xp, and you seem mentally incapable o' grasping such an utterly obvious concept... 

 

but you didn't get your ps:t foible...  which you actually edited your way into.

 

you can't grasp that it is taking fewer resources to Not balance than any mechanic which would be, necessarily "extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff."  

 

you don't realize or recognize that adding a mechanic that would be "extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff"  is far too resource intensive to achieve at this late date.

 

you don't understand that the espoused goals o' PoE as noted in the kisckstarter were, "Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count," which clearly conflicts with a notion o' per-kill xp awards.

 

...

 

is simply not worth responding direct to you at this point. really. our admission o' a complete failure to make you recognize concepts as axiomatic as water is wet or autumn follows summer aside, the entire issue is moot. is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated.

 

*shrug*

 

am genuine beginning to understand nietzsche's mental breakdown. the true horror is that we recognize that we is the guy doing the flogging o' the horse. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

 

Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave. 

which complete ignores that we can sneak past all the spiders in the cave.

 

No it doesn't. It merely proves false the claim (yours) that the quest can be completed via stealth, since combat is required before reaching the ogre, and more relevantly, before receiving a single experience point for that quest. If you wish to change your False claim to one more accurate like: "Well, OK, The Quest-XP only system may require some players to alter their playstyles sometimes in order to receive XP. No system is perfect heheheh", then fine. Not sure your ego will allow that though.

 

admitted, we haven't tried to stealth past the ones outside the cave.

It's not a matter of trying. They block a map transition. You can lure them away from it then try run in without fighting them (not sure if that works), but regardless, that will require that you deactivate stealth.

 

*shrug* doesn't matter.

It does for your claim.

 

if we sneak past spiders and then kill or use dialogue to finish the ogre quest, why should we be penalized?

You can't sneak past the spiders, so your question is meaningless and the point remains: There are no quests in this beta that can be completed via stealth, So the claim that the Quest-XP system rewards all playstyles is false and one who chooses Stealth as a playstyle cannot receive XP for it in this beta. He must first change his play style. In fact, even if you COULD stealth past all the insects and spiders, you STILL can't complete that quest with stealth since the game forces a *visible* confrontation with the ogre AND forces a dialogue with him.

 

In order for a stealth playstyle to work in your system, the quest itself has to be specifically geared towards stealth. ie. It has to be, like, a heist-type quest where you are tasked with recovering/stealing an item and returning to the quest giver without being seen or forced into any confrontation with anyone along the way.

 

Those are *YOUR* perameters, Gromnir. That is the Bar you set previously when we were debating Combat XP, when I was pointing out to you why it's fundamentally impossible to reward XP for stealthing past encounters in a combat XP-only system.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Stun

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

I don't care how anybody else plays the game, I do care only about the game being as much fun as possible. No combat xp, less fun. If YOU care HOW I play the game, you have problem in your head.

Devs, please make turn off combat xp button and everybody should be pleased, right? Right? You shouldn't really care how I do play the game at my home.

 

   

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it.

 

 

 

 

The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation.  They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else.  It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold.

 

It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen.

As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. 

 

Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

*Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

...

 

 

3. Doesn't give an incentive to kill everything on a map (which can be chore) - only what you need to kill to do what you want to do

 

 

Yes, on seconds thoughts you make sense, perhaps introducing XP combat does affect the opposing voter; however, I cannot see why both camps cannot get what they want eventually.

Regarding (reasons against) 3:  I think the crpg community would object vocally to Pillars becoming an action rpg along the lines of say Diablo, that said it shouldn't detract from offering the player xp from combat which crpg's have been doing since Bards Tale and before.

 

 

 I agree and I think that, if the game is good, somebody will make a kill XP mod since there is clearly a demand for it. It will be a a fair bit of work to get it right, but if somebody does the work, the game will still be good with the mod (a bad mod will just be ignored). 

 

 I thought that the quest only XP was strange when it was first announced - also the no pre-buffing decision. These are both departures from how the IE games work and so, were risky decisions. In the beta, the XP system and the available buffs seem to work. Even if you have a different preference, neither of these breaks the game - it makes it better in some ways (and worse in others).

 

 The gamble that the OE team made was that the good will outweigh the bad - we'll see when we have the whole game. I think they're going to be right; it seems like the quests in the beta will have repercussions elsewhere in the game and we will be seeing some of the NPCs again (at least, the subset of them that we didn't kill). 

 

 In any case, whether we agree or not, it's nice to see a reasoned response to an issue that has evoked some strong feelings.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

I don't care how anybody else plays the game, I do care only about the game being as much fun as possible. No combat xp, less fun. If YOU care HOW I play the game, you have problem in your head.

Devs, please make turn off combat xp button and everybody should be pleased, right? Right? You shouldn't really care how I do play the game at my home.

   

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it.

 

 

 

 

The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation.  They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else.  It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold.

 

It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen.

As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. 

 

Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

*Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

 

naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. 

 

our post:

 

a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue:

 

"Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs."

 

please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement."  would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? 

 

again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem.

 

end post.

 

indira responded thus:

 

Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance.

 

I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. 

 

As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance

 

end repost.

 

therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated."  the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Ward]

just decided to check the forums, although i backed the KS high enough to get into the beta i am glad i haven't played it yet. I am stunned there is no combat XP. Please don't re-invent the wheel guys, we backed knowing this is Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dales (first one only) spiritual successor, not a where no one has gone before experiment.

[Gromnir]

just decided to check the forums, although i backed the KS high enough to get into the beta i am glad i haven't played it yet. I am stunned there is no combat XP. Please don't re-invent the wheel guys, we backed knowing this is Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dales (first one only) spiritual successor, not a where no one has gone before experiment.

am sympathetic, but please note that the kickstarter pitch were perhaps not what you imagined it to be.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67963-backer-beta-developer-impressions/?p=1495069

 

the developers were up-front and clear that body count would be de-emphasized in PoE and that making all builds equal viable and giving all such builds equivalent potential for xp acquisition were primary goals. there should not be a surprise in 2014 when it weren't a surprise in 2012.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care how anybody else plays the game, I do care only about the game being as much fun as possible. No combat xp, less fun. If YOU care HOW I play the game, you have problem in your head.

Devs, please make turn off combat xp button and everybody should be pleased, right? Right? You shouldn't really care how I do play the game at my home.

 

   

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it.

The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation.  They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else.  It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold.

 

It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen.

As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. 

 

Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

*Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. 

 

our post:

 

a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue:

 

"Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs."

 

please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement."  would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? 

 

again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem.

 

end post.

 

indira responded thus:

 

 

Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance.

 

I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. 

 

As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance

 

end repost.

 

therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated."  the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No he stated they could do it, and that he did not believe perfect balance was necessary. As in he doesn't agree those stated goals of perfect balance are necessary. Nor do many of us.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care how anybody else plays the game, I do care only about the game being as much fun as possible. No combat xp, less fun. If YOU care HOW I play the game, you have problem in your head.

Devs, please make turn off combat xp button and everybody should be pleased, right? Right? You shouldn't really care how I do play the game at my home.

   

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it.

The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation.  They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else.  It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold.

 

It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen.

As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. 

 

Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

*Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. 

 

our post:

 

a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue:

 

"Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs."

 

please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement."  would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? 

 

again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem.

 

end post.

 

indira responded thus:

 

 

Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance.

 

I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. 

 

As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance

 

end repost.

 

therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated."  the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No he stated they could do it, and that he did not believe perfect balance was necessary. As in he doesn't agree those stated goals of perfect balance are necessary. Nor do many of us.

 

actually, no. he/she agreed that a new mechanic that included the promised balancing could not be added in the requisite time with the available manpower/money resources. he/she doesn't believe such balancing is necessary, but he/she agreed that that josh's statements about the balancing being prohibitive for qa and designers was accurate. 

 

this is simple reason folks. an engineer says he can't build a replacement bridge by December that will satisfy certain design requirements such as weight limits, longevity, etc. another engineer shows up and claims that a bridge can be built by December, but her specs is complete different. not all bridges is the same just as not all xp mechanics is the same. a primary goal mentioned in the kickstarter promise were balance. indira says balance ain't necessary? well, that's nice, but it ain't actual helpful or responsive... she offers a very nice rope bridge, but that ain't what obsidian promised or would be willing to replace their current design with.

 

so no, as we noted, a balanced xp mechanic cannot be constructed in the time remaining, and indira agreed... she simply doesn't see balance as a necessary quality. issue is moot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[ManifestedISO]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67963-backer-beta-developer-impressions/page-17?do=findComment&comment=1495069

 

Equally unequivocal and appealing. No wonder I didn't focus on, or build a construct out of, something it doesn't say.

 

A comparatively new way to play in the tiredest of tired genres ... I'll take two.  

 

 

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care how anybody else plays the game, I do care only about the game being as much fun as possible. No combat xp, less fun. If YOU care HOW I play the game, you have problem in your head.

Devs, please make turn off combat xp button and everybody should be pleased, right? Right? You shouldn't really care how I do play the game at my home.

 

   

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it.

The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation.  They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else.  It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold.

 

It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen.

As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. 

 

Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

*Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. 

 

our post:

 

a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue:

 

"Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs."

 

please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement."  would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? 

 

again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem.

 

end post.

 

indira responded thus:

 

Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance.

 

I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. 

 

As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance

 

end repost.

 

therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated."  the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

No he stated they could do it, and that he did not believe perfect balance was necessary. As in he doesn't agree those stated goals of perfect balance are necessary. Nor do many of us.

actually, no. he/she agreed that a new mechanic that included the promised balancing could not be added in the requisite time with the available manpower/money resources. he/she doesn't believe such balancing is necessary, but he/she agreed that that josh's statements about the balancing being prohibitive for qa and designers was accurate. 

 

this is simple reason folks. an engineer says he can't build a replacement bridge by December that will satisfy certain design requirements such as weight limits, longevity, etc. another engineer shows up and claims that a bridge can be built by December, but her specs is complete different. not all bridges is the same just as not all xp mechanics is the same. a primary goal mentioned in the kickstarter promise were balance. indira says balance ain't necessary? well, that's nice, but it ain't actual helpful or responsive... she offers a very nice rope bridge, but that ain't what obsidian promised or would be willing to replace their current design with.

 

so no, as we noted, a balanced xp mechanic cannot be constructed in the time remaining, and indira agreed... she simply doesn't see balance as a necessary quality. issue is moot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

But you believe combat xp can never be perfectly balanced and we agree, it never can be and we don't care it's miniscule in the differences. So very strictly perfectly balance combat xp cannot be implemented, but you would argue it never could no matter the time frame, so why agree to your conditions when we don't want them. However the system that we are in favor of could be implemented in the allotted time.

[Volourn]

"the developers were up-front and clear that body count would be de-emphasized in PoE"

 

HAHAHA! Yet, from the other side they talk about how PE is combat heavy and that many battles won't be avoidable. *yawn*

 

"and that making all builds equal viable and giving all such builds equivalent potential for xp acquisition were primary goals."

 

 

L0LZ

 

 

"there should not be a surprise in 2014 when it weren't a surprise in 2012."

 

It was no surprise but they said to give it a chance and don't judge the xp system until we tried the game. I tried the game. The xp system sucks. How come SRR has a better xp system than PE? There's no excuse for that.

 

 

 

"ps:t were our favorite crpg. being our favorite does not mean that we cannot recognize flaws. one glaring flaw were the xp mechanic. wisdom, a stat which were the prime attribute o' no playable ps:t TNO class, were an xp Multiplier. not only were many quest rewards tied directly to a minimum wisdom score, but having a high wisdom resulted in potential more than 33% improvement in all xp gained in the game. playing as a high strength and low intelligence/wisdom fighter, as were a viable and enjoyable build in all othe ie games, resulted in a player not only missing a significant amount o' wisdom specific content, but it created an xp penalty for those players foolish enough not to boost wisdom. ps:t, as much as we loved the game and still frequent replay it as a high wisdom, high charisma player, were a classic example o' developer schadenfreude.  you wanna play a vanilla fighter in ps:t? HA! joke is on you, 'cause not only does ps:t combat suck, but you is getting a functional xp penalty for playing as a traditional fighter build."

 

It was a great mechanic.  Take your whining of 'balance' and 'traditional fighters' then throw them in ttrash. Wasn't one of the popints of PST was not to go the 'traditional way'? Now, you whine you could not be a 'traditional' low wisdom' warrior? COME ON. Only loser min maxers cry when they can min a stat liek that. LMAO No wonder you are a new age apologizer.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Volourn

[Zansatsu]

Look Gromnir you can lecture me all you want about combat xp can't be perfectly balanced. I get that. I also know this isn't going to get implemented. However a system i would prefer could be implemented in time for launch. In the context of your argument I don't wish to conform in terms of coming up with a perfectly balanced alternative when I'm not interested in it.

[Gromnir]

 

But you believe combat xp can never be perfectly balanced and we agree, it never can be and we don't care it's miniscule in the differences. So very strictly perfectly balance combat xp cannot be implemented, but you would argue it never could no matter the time frame, so why agree to your conditions when we don't want them. However the system that we are in favor of could be implemented in the allotted time.

 

mischaracterization o' our arguments... or any argument we has seen. Gromnir has noted that an advantage o' quest based xp is that it avoids the need to balance. and you is incorrect, being an optimist, we has actually suggested that a perfect balancing algorithm may exist, but that it would be prohibitively difficult to achieve. given that the alternative, quest xp, doesn't require such complex calculus, it strikes us as a far more rational, and pragmatic approach.

 

regardless, you were wrong.

 

"the entire issue is moot. is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this  game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated."

 

you claimed that this were a point o' potential disagreement. it isn't. both the obsidian developers and other kill-xp proponents with tech know-how agree that a mechanic that seeks to balance cannot be added to PoE at this late date. moot.

 

 

"Look Gromnir you can lecture me all you want about combat xp can't be perfectly balanced. I get that. I also know this isn't going to get implemented. However a system i would prefer could be implemented in time for launch. In the context of your argument I don't wish to conform in terms of coming up with a perfectly balanced alternative when I'm not interested in it. "

 

is not a matter o' perfect balance. you jokers is so funny. even so, some honesty from start would serve you better. if you were like indira and could at least admit that you don't consider balance a necessary quality, we would disagree with you, but you would not make yourself such an easy target for scorn & or ridicule. not care about balance? is a perfect acceptable pov. many folks don't see a need for balance in a sp crpg. the developers disagree however and made promises based on their beliefs in the importance o' balance from the start o' the kickstarter. moot.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Gromnir