Sensuki's Suggestions #012: Non-Terrible Main HUD [Mockup]

[Sarex]

Well we simply don't concur.  It is on the right with Divinity Original Sin and I don't see anyone trying to say it sucks because of it.  I can read the combat log just fine either way and looking left or looking right makes no difference to me.  Personally other than the fact that I can't outright hide the center bit right now and the combat log only expands in one direction I see nothing wrong with the current ui.

 

The D:OS UI is so bad I can't even begin to describe it. If you can't move your mouse over it without triggering 50 different pop-up windows then that is some seriously ****ty design. I am ok with the floaty minimalist design, even though I prefer the look of the solid ones, but the D:OS ui was ****.

[Stun]

 

Its crazy hard to add visual and audio feedback for every single thing in this game because it has the complexity of a turn based game. How to solve it? I dont know thats the dev's job because its actually really hard and cost a lot of time and money.

 

Nice cop-out.

 

"Combat log is bad because 1999 and the info should be availabel otherwise."

"How?"

"Damned if I know, it's their job to figure out."

 

That's exactly what he's saying.

 

The fact of the matter is that a well designed combat log solves all the issues he brought up, and therefore, should be the centerpiece of the HUD. Of course this doesn't automatically mean that we should be happy with PoE's combat log as it is. Mainly because its current state is not ideal. I can list a ton of changes to make it better. Its repositioning to the front and center is only the start.

 

Text should be color coded better in it. It should scroll slower. There should be a space between each line. It should name the item/spell/ability that is causing the damage or debilitating/buffing effect. etc.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[Mayama]

Or you could simply go with - if it aint broke don't fix it and use a combat log just like most isometric games of this type do. You know, the sensible thing to do.

Well even if you accept or fully embrace the combat log idea you still need visual and audio clues for as much things as possible You cant read everything in the combat log, to much information (if you dont pause).  Their are also mechanics that are more or less completly hidden right now like the engagement system.

[Sensuki]

Left or center is good. Right is bad.

 

Well even if you accept or fully embrace the combat log idea you still need visual and audio clues for as much things as possible You cant read everything in the combat log, to much information (if you dont pause).  Their are also mechanics that are more or less completly hidden right now like the engagement system.

All of which I've covered in my recent videos.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

The current UI would have been quite fine, given that I really like ToEE's more minimalist UI approach, but!

 

After having played the beta, and noticing how much it plays like a different game from those classic D&D CRPGs, I'm now accepting a more clunky approach, even if it eats up screen real estate.

 

I like playing fast, almost like in a RTS, when it comes to RTwP, so in that sense an RTS-UI like COH2's make much more sense - and it has a big board along the bottom, and all buttons needed placed there. It doesn't have a combat log, nor a party with summons - and here those things are centre stage, so why not place the actions of the characters you control at the bottom in the centre?

I'm no slave to combat logs, but they are very important references in IE games, even for a D&D buff like myself - I wouldn't miss it for the world, so, having played M&M X like 100 hours, I can tell for a fact that their UI actually works pretty well, and reading that combat log is no problem at all.

 

Notice how we all speak of the importance of combat and the UI - the game is so combat-focussed that we need it to even surpass the UI of an RTS to be perfect and enjoyable? But still it has nothing on the fact it's no sold as a real CRPG, and the IE games before were just a kill-stuff-repeat-mechanics CRPGs.

Edited August 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[PrimeJunta]

Saying that its a band aid solution, what it is and knowing how to solve it are two different things. You can only improve things if you are willing to accept that they are not optimal.

 

(1) Combat information in this type of game is complex. That's part of the appeal. Which defense am I attacking? What are my numbers? What did I roll? What was the result? How much damage did I do? How much of that was soaked by DT? And so on. To play optimally, I need to get at this information. I'll only not care about it once I've already drawn the conclusions and made my choices and am playing efficiently.

 

(2) Therefore, we are dealing with a problem of presenting complex information in a manner that is as clear and understandable as possible.

 

(3) A tried-and-true way of accomplishing this is the combat log. This one is a mess, but that's not because it's a combat log; it's because it displays unimportant information ("BB Fighter regenerated 1 Stamina due to blaa-blaa-blaa") and doesn't display the important information (the numbers).

 

Therefore, if you proudly proclaim it to be obsolete, it is IMO incumbent on you to suggest a better alternative. What you're doing sounds almost like you were proudly proclaiming the spreadsheet to be an obsolete way of managing numbers and formulae, and when asked what you'd replace it with, go "I don't know, it's Microsoft's job to figure it out."

 

I.e., not very... helpful, from where I'm at.

 

(FWIW I have also designed user interfaces for longer than I care to think about.)

[Freshock]

I wouldn't call the current hud terrible, I actually like it alot. But your suggestion isn't bad either, although I don't think I would ever read the chat box the way it is on your setup. 

[Mayama]

Therefore, if you proudly proclaim it to be obsolete, it is IMO incumbent on you to suggest a better alternative. What you're doing sounds almost like you were proudly proclaiming the spreadsheet to be an obsolete way of managing numbers and formulae, and when asked what you'd replace it with, go "I don't know, it's Microsoft's job to figure it out."

 

Its more about hidding the spread sheet behind something more readable, also is their anyone on this forum that does not design Ui's?

[Sensuki]

Do you design UIs for games that have the option to play without tooltips and damage floats?

[PrimeJunta]

Its more about hidding the spread sheet behind something more readable, also is their anyone on this forum that does not design Ui's?

 

Tell that to our controller. What could possibly be more readable than the numbers she's working with?

 

It sounds to me like you want to obscure the mechanics altogether, and make it all about, say, visual and auditory feedback. That is all very awesome and entirely well-suited for a game like, say, The Witcher 3. It is also completely not what a game like P:E is about. We want to see the numbers. ALL the numbers.

 

You may feel that this numbers-based gameplay is all very last millennium, but a lot of us disagree -- and that's a different matter altogether.

[Mayama]

Do you design UIs for games that have the option to play without tooltips and damage floats?

 

Floating numbers or feedback would help alot. It worked great in ToEE. The numbers right now appear at a weird place under the character and have a very hard to read font or color.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 We want to see the numbers. ALL the numbers.

 

 

Apparently not. Some of us (no names) don't want to see xp numbers very often.

 

Hehe, it's like my "Carthage needs to be destroyed".

[PrimeJunta]

You and BruceVC need to get together to discuss romance and combat XP.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indeed. Brothers in Arms XP!

[Mayama]

So this was our daily forum cage fight, rather harmless and neither helm nor stun took part in it. Well stun tried but wasnt really in top form today.

[Sensuki]

 

Do you design UIs for games that have the option to play without tooltips and damage floats?

 

Floating numbers or feedback would help alot. It worked great in ToEE. The numbers right now appear at a weird place under the character and have a very hard to read font or color.

 

You missed the point. IN THIS GAME YOU CAN TURN OFF DAMAGE FLOATS AND COMBAT HUDS MEANING YOU NEED TO RELY ON TEH LOG TO DISPLAY THE INFORMATION. JUST LIKE THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES. THIS IS AN OPTION THAT MANY PEOPLE WANTED.

[Stun]

So this was our daily forum cage fight, rather harmless and neither helm nor stun took part in it. Well stun tried but wasnt really in top form today.

Oh? That wasn't the tune you were singing just 2 pages ago when you spouted the obligatory, knee-jerk "YOUR A TROLL!" response to my very first post on this thread. Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[Sarex]

LoL, the self proclaiming victor.

[war:head]

Maybe YOU don't care about what's going on under the hood, But Me, I'm a total nerd. I don't just want to know whether my paralyse spell succeeded, I want to know what the enemy rolled to fail. I want to know what bonuses or penalties came into play, so that I can work in the future to increase my success with all my skills. etc. Not wanting a combat log means you don't really care about stuff like that. That's called being a casual by definition. So again. Go play your Dragon Age.

 

So what you're saying is: Dragon Age is the better RPG?

 

Cause the way I see it actual role playing forbids aids like damage numbers and combat logs since that is how the real world works. If you hit someone with a sword, you don't get damage numbers and if you miss there isn't some artificial number on why you missed. 

 

What you're doing is min/max'ing an Excel spreadsheet, using numbers to optimize your character. From an RP standpoint that is pretty casual.

[Stun]

The real world also doesn't show damage numbers floating over the heads of people when you hit them.

 

No one here is arguing that the combat log shouldn't be minimizable/hidable (it should. just like in the IE games) Just that it should never, EVER be removed. this is a Role playing GAME, it is not an auto-play movie.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@war:head Ah, the Dan Vavra school of game design.

 

Nothing wrong with it as such, but it's a whole different game.

[illathid]

 

Maybe YOU don't care about what's going on under the hood, But Me, I'm a total nerd. I don't just want to know whether my paralyse spell succeeded, I want to know what the enemy rolled to fail. I want to know what bonuses or penalties came into play, so that I can work in the future to increase my success with all my skills. etc. Not wanting a combat log means you don't really care about stuff like that. That's called being a casual by definition. So again. Go play your Dragon Age.

 

So what you're saying is: Dragon Age is the better RPG?

 

Cause the way I see it actual role playing forbids aids like damage numbers and combat logs since that is how the real world works. If you hit someone with a sword, you don't get damage numbers and if you miss there isn't some artificial number on why you missed. 

 

What you're doing is min/max'ing an Excel spreadsheet, using numbers to optimize your character. From an RP standpoint that is pretty casual.

 

 

I think someone needs to brush up on the Stormwind fallacy.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I've been meaning to post that a long time. Thanks, illathid!

[Yonjuro]

 

Here is a non-terrible Main HUD design.

...

What do you guys think?

 

 

 Very good. I think the best part of the post is the analysis (you know, the red circles and arrows) showing how far you need to change your focus in the two layouts.

 

 Whatever the position of the combat log, in combat, the character icons should be next to it; you need to be able to see what it is happening and react to it. This should be uncontroversial if people are paying attention.

 

(BTW, I reported a (somewhat related) bug regarding character level ups; the spell/talent selection icons are on the far left and the descriptions are on the far right. Stop doing that, OE. Just stop.) 

[war:head]

The real world also doesn't show damage numbers floating over the heads of people when you hit them.

 

No one here is arguing that the combat log shouldn't be minimizable/hidable (it should. just like in the IE games) Just that it should never, EVER be removed. this is a Role playing GAME, it is not an auto-play movie.

I wasn't entirely serious in my post and I don't think the combat log should go or is a bad thing in itself. I was just playing on your questionable claim that anyone who doesn't care about min/max'ing their character is a casual who should go play DA instead of PoE.

Edited August 27, 2014 by war:head