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Itemization feels bland


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You can argue that these weapons are imbalanced, and I won't totally disagree, but...you didn't. You had to get carried away with the BG2 bashing and take it 20 notches further to claim that they rendered combat trivial. which is false.

 

 

 

You know you can use the robe and staff on everything that can multiclass, ever played something like a kensai/mage? All those options are insane power gamer options.

 

So?

 

PS: I'm not letting you move the goalposts. You can certainly powergame in Bg2. Who would ever argue otherwise? Also, What's your point?

 

 

 

Its not a real tradeoff because that would mean that risk/reward is kinda balanced which is not.

LOL

 

Is there some CRPG dictionary of terms that you're getting this from? It's a tradeoff, period. The game doesn't let fighters use the Staff of the magi unless they take mage levels. And when they do, they will not be as effective in melee combat as a pure fighter, nor as effective at casting spells as a pure mage. But they can now use the staff of the magi....but that's only if they wish to forgo dual-wielding 2 powerful weapons at the same time for extra attacks, or the AC and magical defensive bonuses from wielding a the shield of Balduran, or the shield of harmony

Edited by Stun
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You can argue that these weapons are imbalanced, and I won't totally disagree, but...you didn't. You had to get carried away with the BG2 bashing and take it 20 notches further to claim that they rendered combat trivial. which is false.

 

 

 

You know you can use the robe and staff on everything that can multiclass, ever played something like a kensai/mage? All those options are insane power gamer options.

 

So?

 

PS: I'm not letting you move the goalposts. You can certainly powergame in Bg2. Who would ever argue otherwise? Also, What's your point?

 

The powergaming is beyond the scope of what should be allowed. If a game lacks any challenge because you can powergame easily to levels that makes any content trivial than something is wrong. We dont talk here about power gaming like in most RPG'S where the maximum you can archive is beeing a good percentage better than your average hero. Their are tons of items, spells and class combinations in BG2 that make people question the thought process of the devs. Some people here act like that are minor balance issues. Stuff like robe of vecna that lets you instacast many spells or project images that lets you cast an army of yourself is not imbalanced its just broken.

Edited by Mayama
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The powergaming is beyond the scope of what should be allowed. If a game lacks any challange because you can powergame easily to levels that makes any content trivial than something is wrong. We dont talk here about power gaming like in most RPG'S where the maximum you can archive is beeing a good percentage better than your average hero. Their are tons of items, spells and class combinations in BG2 that make people question the thought process of the devs. Some people here act like that are minor balance issues. Stuff like robe of vecna that lets you instacast many spells or project images that lets you cast an army of yourself is not imbalanced its just broken.

LOL Freak.
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The stun from Celestial Fury is p. good.

 

I always use it as my off-hand weapon as a Kensai unless I have to swap it out for a +4 weapon or higher.

 

I also like the mod that makes it rain every time you use it haha, I love rain in the BGs.

 

Speaking of rain, I have not seen any Environmental rain in PE yet .......

.......

Edited by Sensuki
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So now you start to insult me because of the lack of arguments?

LOL make that Blind Freak.

 

There isn't a single sentence in your last post that I (and others) haven't already thrashed more than once.

 

Go Play Dragon Age 2 or something and stop wasting your time with us. It has the rigidly policed, constrictingly balanced, totally unpowergameable, utterly-railroaded classes, abilities, and items that would make you scream "YES!!!!!".

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So now you start to insult me because of the lack of arguments?

LOL make that Blind Freak.

 

There isn't a single sentence in your last post that I (and others) haven't already thrashed more than once.

 

Go Play Dragon Age 2 or something and stop wasting your time with us. It has the rigidly policed, constrictingly balanced, totally unpowergameable, utterly-railroaded classes, abilities, and items that would make you scream "YES!!!!!".

 

Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies. I really start to question if you are aware what balance acctually means.

Edited by Mayama
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Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploity-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

 

You don't *get* BG2. That's your problem.

 

There IS no trivializing combat in Bg2, because the bestiary is vast enough to insure that there's no magic bullet that penetrates everything.

Edited by Stun
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Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploit-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

It only reveals how simple the combat system actually was. A balanced and deep strategy game does not need gimmicks to keep people entertained. It offers replayability through the different ways on how you can approach a situation. The most basic example would be chess, no expoits, no gimmicks, almost completly balanced but people are enjoying it for thousand of years.

 

 

You don't *get* BG2. That's your problem.

Its more like you dont get that different people have different views on things and that your point of view is not the absolute thruth about things. Reading through the beta forum suggests that the majority tends to favor a balanced game over a rollercoaster ride of expoits and imbalance.

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Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploit-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

 

It only reveals how simple the combat system actually was.

 

I'm calling your bluff. You're full of Sh*t and even you know it

 

1) we're discussing exploits that are discovered after several playthroughs of a time honored classic. (also, unless you're metagaming or insanely lucky, you won't even FIND the Staff of the Magi on your first playthrough)

2) And even if someone were genius enough to discover such exploits on a first playthrough, it still doesn't render combat trivial, since BG2 is a game that crawls with hard counters to everything. Summoning an army of yourself works only sometimes. other times the enemy simply tosses a Death spell and the army disappears. "Exploiting" celestial fury + improved haste works sometimes. Other times the enemy just casts maze on you and *poof* you're no longer attacking him with Celestial Fury. you're no longer even there. Double clicking every 3 seconds on the Staff of the magi in order to become invisible works sometimes, other times the enemy has true sight active and suddenly you realize you're wasting your time doing USELESS things. etc. etc. etc.

3) Even Josh Sawyer agrees that BG2's combat isn't trivial, and that it can be quite harsh with its frequent save-or-die, long lasting stuns, chance, etc. and has promised a more forgiving experience for PoE.

 

 

 

 

Its more like you dont get that different people have different views on things and that your point of view is not the absolute thruth about things. Reading through the beta forum suggests that the majority tends to favor a balanced game over a rollercoaster ride of expoits and imbalance.

If we were just dealing with "viewpoints" and "Opinions" here, I wouldn't bother responding to your blather. But You're making *false* claims. factually disprovable false claims....about one of the greatest RPGs ever created. And so I'm here to correct you. Edited by Stun
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Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploit-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

 

It only reveals how simple the combat system actually was.

 

I'm calling your bluff. You're full of Sh*t and even you know it

 

1) we're discussing exploits that are discovered after several playthroughs of a time honored classic.

2) And even if someone were genius enough to discover such exploits on a first playthrough, it still doesn't render combat trivial, since BG2 is a game that crawls with hard counters to everything. Summoning an army of yourself works only sometimes. other times the enemy simply tosses a Death spell and the army disappears. "Exploiting" celestial fury + improved haste works sometimes. Other times the enemy just casts maze on you and *poof* you're no longer attacking him with Celestial Fury. you're no longer even there. Double clicking every 3 seconds on the Staff of the magi in order to become invisible works sometimes, other times the enemy has true sight active and suddenly you realize you're wasting your time doing USELESS things. etc. etc. etc.

3) Even Josh Sawyer agrees that BG2's combat isn't trivial, that it can be quite harsh with it's save-or-die, long lasting stuns, chance, etc. and has promised a more forgiving experience for PoE.

 

 

 

 

Its more like you dont get that different people have different views on things and that your point of view is not the absolute thruth about things. Reading through the beta forum suggests that the majority tends to favor a balanced game over a rollercoaster ride of expoits and imbalance.

No. If we were just dealing with "viewpoints" and "Opinions" here, I wouldn't bother responding to you. You're making *false* claims. factually disprovable false claims. And so I'm correcting you.

 

Dude the caster army thing was mentioned in reviews when the game came out like many other inbalances or exploits. You just have to go to youtube and watch a random let's play to see that I dont make false claims. As I said bevor a well balanced game does not need build in inbalance and exploits for replayability. About images and death spells, their are ways to get around that problem. 

 

Baldur's gate is basically a sandbox full of tools that no one ever tried to balance. That is not what this game is all about and it was obvious from the very first minute of the kickstarter campaing. Afaik they talked a lot about all that stuff and why they dont want it in PoE. If you like that kind of game, PoE is not for you and they explicitly informed everyone about it multible times.

Edited by Mayama
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Is there some rule that every thread turn into a slap fight over Shadows of Ann?

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Dude the caster army thing was mentioned in reviews when the game came out

No. it wasn't. We cannot have a debate when one side's argument consists of nothing but silly made up claims.

 

 

Baldur's gate is basically a sandbox full of tools that no one ever tried to balance. That is not what this game is all about and it was obvious from the very first minute of the kickstarter campaing. Afaik they talked a lot about all that stuff and why they dont want it in PoE. If you like that kind of game, PoE is not for you and they explicitly informed everyone about it multible times.

I beg your pardon, but you have no idea how unbalanced and exploitable PoE is going to be.

 

After just 1 day of Playing the beta I personally discovered 1 balance killing exploit, 1 overpowered weapon type, and about half a dozen class based imbalances.

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No. it wasn't. We cannot have a debate when one side's argument consists of nothing but silly made up claims.

 

 I beg your pardon, but you have no idea how unbalanced and exploitable PoE is going to be.

 

After just 1 day of Playing the beta I personally discovered 1 balance killing exploit, 1 overpowered weapon type, and about half a dozen class based imbalances.

 

I ignore your first sentence because it would result in a endless debate. Better for both of us I guess.

 

http://kotaku.com/ho...-rpg-1625516832

 

Thats the Josh Sawyer balance article. You can read their that they did zero balance bevor the beta. The difference is that they try to balance the game. BG had the problem that they wanted to add tons of stuff but the AD&D license forced them to implement it in a way that made them unbalanced because their was no dungeon master to control all the over the top stuff flying around.

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Is there some rule that every thread turn into a slap fight over Shadows of Ann?

 

No, just the ones Stun posts in. :runs:

 

Hey, start from page 1 and read this thread. The BG2 slap fest was going on way before I got here.
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I ignore your first sentence because it would result in a endless debate.

An endless debate? A simple link to an article from 2000/2001 citing BG2's P.I. Army Exploit would end the debate outright. Since it would confirm your claim. But you won't find such an article, or even references to such an article, because none exist, because these are the types of exploits that gamers discover in games only after *years* of playing the hell out of it.

 

Nice try though!

 

 

http://kotaku.com/ho...-rpg-1625516832

 

Thats the Josh Sawyer balance article. You can read their that they did zero balance bevor the beta. The difference is that they try to balance the game.

So?

 

I can show you a 2010 interview with Mike Laidlaw where he swears that Dragon Age 2 will be a deep and compelling epic. I'm not seeing your point. Trying to balance a game does not instantly mean the game will be balanced, and it sure as hell doesn't mean the game won't be riddled with balance-killing exploits.

 

And...it doesn't matter anyway. This is a Single player game. Balance isn't that important. Neither is the need to shackle the powergamers and hand out lollies to all players who play all classes because...FAIR!

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http://kotaku.com/ho...-rpg-1625516832

 

Thats the Josh Sawyer balance article. You can read their that they did zero balance bevor the beta. The difference is that they try to balance the game.

So?

 

I can show you a 2010 interview with Mike Laidlaw where he swears that Dragon Age 2 will be a deep and compelling epic.

 

 

If you dont believe in the developers than why did you spend money on it?

Edited by Mayama
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Choo Choo here comes the derail train, next stop IWD

 

 

I do not like the enchanting system because you cannot farm without random encounters, making you rely on limited random drops.

 

It would be nice if you could break your enchanted items down to their components if you want to transfer one to a new item, effectively losing money invested and for the item. Not realistic but eh

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If you dont believe in the developers than why did you spend money on it?

That's a good question. I would have to say that I'm a trusting sort by nature. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt at first. Of course, once they Burn me, I never trust them again. And that's why I'm not buying DA:I or anything else from bioware ever again. No matter how many times I hear them swear that it's going to be the biggest, bestest game they've ever made.

 

But enough of that

 

It would be nice if you could break your enchanted items down to their components if you want to transfer one to a new item, effectively losing money invested and for the item. Not realistic but eh

That's reverse engineering. It's totally realistic, actually (well, at least as realistic as enchanting items can ever be) Edited by Stun
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A reverse-engineering mechanic would be nice but it would have to be done well enough to be worthwhile. Else we'll get just another "convert to nanogel" thing, only in fantasy-speak. Doable but a fair bit of work, and probably only worth it if crafting is more than just an optional side dish.

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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It just baffles me that people call items, spells or classes that trivialize any encounter balanced.

Gonna devote this to it's own post because it breaches the ceiling of sanity and rises to the stratosphere of crazy-speak.

 

None of the items you listed trivialize combat in BG2 in the slightest. Lets go down your list.

 

The Staff of the Magi - usable only by the one class designed to suck monkeyballs in melee. -And- it specifically endowed with properties that will only be useful against other spell casters. Thus if you send your mage ahead to whack away at a vampire or a golem, or a fire giant, or a dragon, or a mind flayer, or a beholder, the ensuing battle will hardly be "trivial"...except maybe for the enemy. Mages should be casting spells instead. The caveat to this is that Thieves get UAI very late in the game and thus they can also use the Staff of the Magi. Of course, the game won't let you backstab with it, so its invisibility property is useless. And anyone dumb enough to equip their thief that late in the game with a 2-handed weapon that 1) a mage should be using, and 2) can't be used for backstabbing, Is an Idiot and his opinions on triviality are rendered irrelevant because of that alone. But mostly, the Staff of the Magi is really nice to have, and it's one of the 4 or 5 most powerful weapons in SoA. But it doesn't make anything trivial.

 

 

Cloak of Mirroring--just like the Staff of the Magi in that it is designed to ONLY be effective against enemy spell casters. it will not help you against a dragon. It will not help you against golems or vampires, or mindflayers, or shadowfiends, or anyone who tries to take your head off in melee. And even against spell casters, it won't protect you against the nastier stuff. The claim that it trivializes combat is most definitely NOT true. Even if we assume that BG2 isn't a party based game and only 1 person in your party can wear the cloak of mirroring.

 

Staff of the Ram -- not sure why this is even here. You only get it in Throne of Bhaal...when it is far too late to be discussing trivial combat (as if your sorcerer's 6 copies of Summon Planetar, and your thief's 15 spike traps are somehow overshadowed by a LOUSY quarterstaff that can knock people back 10% of the time) But lets talk some more about that knock-back ability. Why do you find it powerful? It's the opposite of powerful. it's annoying and it HINDERS combat effectiveness.

 

Celestial Fury -already talked about this. But if you wish to gimp your character by taking points in katana just so you can reap its limited benefits (I'll take the Flail of the Ages over it any day), your loss. It's not even a powergamer's weapon. and it most certainly doesn't make ANYTHING trivial.

 

You can argue that these weapons are imbalanced, and I won't totally disagree, but...you didn't. You had to get carried away with the BG2 bashing and take it 20 notches further to claim that they rendered combat trivial. which is false.

 

 

 

 Reasonable people can disagree about these items but the real takeaway point from this debate is this:

 

 Whether you think these items from BG2 are so amazing that they made the game extra fun to play or you think that these items are so amazing that they ruined the balance of the game (and you felt dirty for using them every single time you played because why. oh. why. couldn't you have a modicum of self control? WHYYYYY?!??) - we can all agree that these items were amazing.

 

 We're arguing about them a decade and a half later.

 

 If PoE doesn't have items that people remember and argue about a decade and a half later we can reconvene and agree that the items were too bland. I hope that doesn't happen and so here we are discussing how to prevent it in this very thread. Carry on.

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 Reasonable people can disagree about these items but the real takeaway point from this debate is this:

 

 Whether you think these items from BG2 are so amazing that they made the game extra fun to play or you think that these items are so amazing that they ruined the balance of the game (and you felt dirty for using them every single time you played because why. oh. why. couldn't you have a modicum of self control? WHYYYYY?!??) - we can all agree that these items were amazing.

 

 We're arguing about them a decade and a half later.

 

 If PoE doesn't have items that people remember and argue about a decade and a half later we can reconvene and agree that the items were too bland. I hope that doesn't happen and so here we are discussing how to prevent it in this very thread. Carry on.

 

A good analogy would be magic the gathering. I played it when I was young and it had two types of awesome cards. You had stuff like sengir vampires that people liked because they were just plain OP the mana/reward ratio was just wrong and they removed those cards in later editions. The other type of awesome cards that players remember were cards like stasis, those cards were build enablers. They let you play in a completly different way and enabled new strategies. They were not more powerfull than other decks but added more options to the game. I personaly think its better to aim for the second type of awesome items.

Edited by Mayama
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Obviously people who refer to the Staff of Magi as "OP" would restrain themselves from using it in the first place.

But this is no vindication for bad gamedesign. I mean, a pure, singleclass Wizard/Mage is OP in the first place. So what about restraianing yourself and don`t play any arcane magic class in the first place?

It should be the developers job to eliminate such OPness. If the player is forced to restrain himself, something went terribly wrong. I mean, I´ve heard this argument a dozen times on the Skyrim Forums alone. People who like the fact that you could craft weapons that three-hitted Alduin in Master would simply reply: "If you don´t like them, don´t use them, it is a single player game kk?"

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