"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[PrimeJunta]

Haha, I just checked the Codex beta thread, and the usually-butthurt sure are there, venting their butthurt. It's delightful!

 

Sometimes it's funny though, like people use words to mean the exact opposite of what I think they mean.

 

"Having to follow a strict class template" = "diversity." 

 

"Designing to allow diverse viable builds within a class" = "being a control freak."
 

"Designing to avoid trap choices" = "developer-created safety net." 

 

I'm pretty sure Stun and the others who are butthurt over the muscle wizard, for example, would've been totes cool with it if it had been a D&D class from a supplement:

 

"Muscle Wizard: Prime requisite: Strength, determines bonus spells and maximum spell level. Bonus feat: Heavily Armored Spellcaster. Spells from Wizard list. Learns spells and casts like a Sorcerer. Hit die: d8. Base attack bonus progression: low. Saves: Will (high), Reflex (medium), Fortitude (medium). Class skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Spellcraft, Alchemy. Special: may only cast every other round."

 

There, happy? I guess some people just aren't capable of coming up with their own character concepts and need designers to do it for them, eh?

[Stun]

Stun and other 'butthurtees" would point out that D&D doesn't need a Muscle wizard supplement. D&D allows for Multi-classing. remember? (diversity? What diversity?)

 

Anyway.

Oh? I thought the consensus was that Might is the only ability you need.

Well, that's just a commentary on the relatively pointless nature of the other ability stats in PoE. As for Might, I'm not sure how one can conclude IT'S needed either, given that the damage and healing bonus difference between 3 and 18 is, like, about 15%? That's called a bonus. A slight one (you'll be doing about 4 more points of damage with your sword than someone with 3 might) That's not a NEED. Of course this is nothing but semantics. A system who's motto is: "no trash choices" means that no stats are needed. Period. Because if they were NEEDED, then choosing not to take them would lead to build failure. And there's no such thing as build failure in a "no trash builds" system. There cannot be.

 

With the P:E approach on the other hand, there really are different viable stat distributions for different character concepts.

That means very little when stats don't have much of an impact on the class builds in the first place. The Attributes are designed to be a modest supplement to already existing build options. More to the point: Boosting your Muscle wizard's Might and Con to 18 is NOT why he's so effective in melee. Your wizard is effective in melee because every class is designed to be effective in melee. Because they must be. Because...safety net.

 

You see this as excellent and refreshing. I see it as watered down class design. And Junta, I see it as such even as I concede the point that the AD&D class system takes it too far in the other direction.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Mayama]

 

That means nothing when stats don't have much of an impact on the class builds in the first place. They are designed to be a modest supplement to already existing build options. More to the point: Boosting your wizard's Might and Con to 18 is NOT why he's so effective in melee. Your wizard is effective in melee because every class is designed to be effective in melee. Because they must be. Because...safety net.

 

You see this as excellent and refreshing. I see it as watered down class design. And Junta, I see it as such even as I concede the point that the AD&D class system takes it too far in the other direction.

 

 

You are aware that stats have zero impact on classes in AD&D? Their is only one way to spend them for every class. The only thing that stats did in AD&D was showing you how much you missed to perfection. AD&D had zero varition, if you would have removed the stats and gave every class just some defined numbers than the game wouldnt have played any different. Especialy in a computer game where everyone could reroll til he had those perfect numbers.

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun the attribute system definitely needs tweaking, and some could probably be bumped.

 

The only one I've actually explored is RES, and I assure you that does make a very noticeable difference. Try it for yourself: roll up two muscle wizards kitted in heavy armor, but dump RES on one and pump it on the other. The one where you dumped it won't be able to cast in the front line at all, or as good as, since he'll get interrupted all the time. Big difference, and contrary to what you say, not effective in melee. CON makes a visible difference to the health pool as well, although the beta is so easy at this point it doesn't matter that much.

 

I disagree with your other point as well, i.e. that "no trash choices" necessarily makes all stats redundant. It doesn't. If done well, it means that different stat choices support different tactics. Dump CON and RES while pumping INT, then wear light or no armor: you'll cast fast and do a lot of AoE damage, but you'll have to do it from the back row because you'll go down fast if you get meleed. Pump CON and RES while dumping INT, wear heavy armor, and you'll be able to stand in the front line and use your full arsenal of spells without having to worry about friendly fire, but you'll cast twice as slow.

 

I don't dispute that the attribute effects could be bumped a bit, but the principle is sound.

 

Edit: yes, also what Mayama said, and what I've been saying less elegantly and with more words all long. (A)D&D stats are a classic false choice; it's an input into a complex optimization function with optimal values that are discovered pretty quickly. Might as well drop them altogether.

Edited August 23, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[CatatonicMan]

A system who's motto is: "no trash choices" means that no stats are needed. Period. Because if they were NEEDED, then failing to take them would lead to build failure. And there's no such thing in a "no trash builds" system.

 

I think it's a bit silly to assume that not distributing points should be or was intended to be a valid choice. If it happens that not distributing points is valid (on normal or harder, at least), then I'd say we have a balance problem to address.

 

That said, I'm not willing to declare anything about the stat system without testing it, and I can't really do that until the major bugs are fixed. For all I know, the seemingly small values provided by the stats will end up making a big difference.

Edited August 23, 2014 by CatatonicMan

[limaxophobiacq]

 

 

With the P:E approach on the other hand, there really are different viable stat distributions for different character concepts.

 

 

 

The thing is that the different stat distributions don't really matter because the effect of Attributes is so very tiny. Of course all stat distributions will be viable if there is no big difference between having a 10 and a 20 in an Attribute. But that's not building a balanced attribute system, that's basically not having an attribute system.

 

 

The backrow wizard can dump RES and CON because he's not going to be hit much, whereas the muscle wizard really, really needs them or he'll go down like a ninepin and won't be able to cast due to being interrupted in melee, so he'll need to dump some stats the backrow wizard could pump with beneficial effects--INT in particular. Between that and the heavy armor, the muscle wizard casts more slowly and less effectively than the backrow wizard, but can make use of  a different set of spells because he doesn't need to worry about friendly fire (so much). 

 

It's different. 

 

 

Except it's not different, because the difference between dumping RES and CON at the expense of INT and boosting INT at expense of RES and CON is negligable.

 

I like the muscle wizard, and the genius barbarian, but I want them to actually be noticably different than a 'regular' wizard or barbarian due to their different attribute allocation.

 

One True Way to allocate attributes for classes (like DnD wizard & barbarian) = bad

 

Different attribute allocations don't matter (current Pillars of Eternity) = also bad

 

Different stat allocations being equally usefull but different = good

Edited August 23, 2014 by limaxophobiacq

[Stun]

 

That means nothing when stats don't have much of an impact on the class builds in the first place. They are designed to be a modest supplement to already existing build options. More to the point: Boosting your wizard's Might and Con to 18 is NOT why he's so effective in melee. Your wizard is effective in melee because every class is designed to be effective in melee. Because they must be. Because...safety net.

 

You see this as excellent and refreshing. I see it as watered down class design. And Junta, I see it as such even as I concede the point that the AD&D class system takes it too far in the other direction.

 

You are aware that stats have zero impact on classes in AD&D? Their is only one way to spend them for every class. The only thing that stats did in AD&D was showing you how much you missed to perfection.

 

That's... not true. Build a Dex-based monk in AD&D and he will be rogue like. hard to hit/defensive master, but he won't hit hard. build a strength based monk and he'll hit hard but won't be very defensive.

 

Build a strength based Cleric in D&D and he'll be far more effective in melee with his cleric combat buffs. Build a wisdom based cleric and he'll be a far better spell caster.

 

Build a Con based Barbarian in AD&D and he'll be a massive meat shield. Build a strength based Barbarian and he'll hit harder but be far less resilient.

 

And before you come back with: "That's how PoE does it" let me pre-empt you: NO. It's not. Stats in AD&D make or break the build. They're far more impactful...in both directions. Stats in PoE just...help you out a little bit.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

I think of attributes in poe as half of your attributes in the IE games; then I consider the talents the other half. Once you get some talents to choose from you can pick a talent that supports the muscle wizard build for example. Between the attributes AND the talents different builds could play pretty differently. 

 

That said I wish the attributes mattered a bit more.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Namutree

[Mazuo]

The stats make no cohesive sense.  Strength and Constitution and the abilities they affect like carry weight and toughness from older systems are understandable in relation to the human body.  I pump my 'Might' in the beta and suddenly I'm just better at everything.  Are these muscles bulking up allowing me to swing my weapon harder?  No, because spells cast suddenly hit harder.  Is my mind being enhanced to process arcane spell information faster?  No, because that has nothing to do with poking the enemy with a blade.

 

They're essentially meaningless constructs to do X better.  The flavor is gone and the mechanics are bland.  That's exacerbated with how pumping a dozen points in something doesn't feel like you've really done anything at all.

 

I fully support avoiding a situation again where you set Charisma to 3 because it simply doesn't matter to a lot of characters.  I just think that could be a lot more easily done than to make the whole damn system obtuse and unreasonable.

[PrimeJunta]

Build a strength based Cleric in D&D and he'll be far more effective in melee with his cleric combat buffs. Build a wisdom based cleric and he'll be a far better spell caster.

Build a Con based Barbarian in AD&D and he'll be a massive meat shield. Build a strength based Barbarian and he'll hit harder but be far less resilient.

 

Oh please Stun. You know perfectly well that every cleric is wisdom-based. Dump it and you won't be able to cast those buffs in the first place. Minimum WIS to cast is 10 + spell level, remember?

 

Every barb will pump STR, CON, and DEX, and dump INT, WIS, and CHA. If you're fine-tuning you might have 18 14 16 or 18 16 14, but that's about all the wiggle room there is.

 

And every cleric will pump WIS and dump DEX and INT, which leaves the agonizing choice of making him a pure caster/undead turner (dump STR and CON, pump CHA) or viable in melee (dump CHA, pump STR and CON to taste).

 

I'll give you the monk, the class expressly crafted to benefit from all/most stats. Which, as you've earlier pointed out, means that all the stats are meaningless, right?

[PrimeJunta]

Stun and other 'butthurtees" would point out that D&D doesn't need a Muscle wizard supplement. D&D allows for Multi-classing. remember? (diversity? What diversity?)

 

Except that your muscle wizard still needs max INT (or CHA, if sorc-based to cast), and can't cast wearing heavy armor. Remember?

 

(And yes, there is the Spellsword prestige class, specifically and carefully crafted as a band-aid to cover this very deficiency.)

Edited August 23, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Namutree]

 

 

 

Oh please Stun. You know perfectly well that every cleric is wisdom-based. Dump it and you won't be able to cast those buffs in the first place. Minimum WIS to cast is 10 + spell level, remember?

 

Well; at least he could choose between 14 WIS or 18 WIS... A little different...

[PrimeJunta]

And miss out on spell levels 5-9? I don't think so. Unless you're intentionally going for a gimped build; Stun has said he enjoys that as a challenge of course.

[Namutree]

And miss out on spell levels 5-9? I don't think so. Unless you're intentionally going for a gimped build; Stun has said he enjoys that as a challenge of course.

Hm... Oh yeah. I kinda forgot. Guess you're right.

[CatatonicMan]

And miss out on spell levels 5-9? I don't think so. Unless you're intentionally going for a gimped build; Stun has said he enjoys that as a challenge of course.

 

Technically you could be multiclassing and don't plan on going above spell level four.

[Stun]

<stuff>

Junta, are you really continuing to try and compare a system where stats have an impact on a build, to PoE's system where they actually friggin don't??

 

It's disingenuous. If you want to compare the inherent diversity of the classes in PoE with the classes in D&D, then do that. It'll be an easier debate for you, and you won't have to instinctively go into denial mode. Obviously the classes in PoE are more diverse by nature. D&D classes are not designed to be jack-of-all-trades do alls, like the ones in PoE. D&D takes a far more specialized approach to the individual classes. Of course, D&D also lets you multi-class, and that's something you're probably not going to be able to overcome...even with your muscle wizard.

 

But lets not play stupid and pretend that the Attributes in PoE have a more meaningful impact on class builds than the attributes in D&D. because they Do not. And it's not even close.

[Malekith]

 

Yes. This would be my personal stance on the matter.

But unlike you guys, I'm not convinced that alterations will be made to the ENTIRE attribute system (which IMO is what it's going to need to feel meaningful enough) I forsee them adjusting perception and resolve, because they've already said they wanted to. But that's about it.

 

I think I'm seeing a pattern here. I get the feeling that some of you really don't like that it's actually impossible, or very difficult, to gimp your character at chargen by picking the 'wrong' attributes. And, conversely, that it's impossible, or very difficult, to make your character objectively much more powerful by picking the 'right' ones. Is this in the ballpark?

 

If so, then yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be changed as it goes against Josh's prime directive of "no trash choices." And yes, that is always going to make minmaxers unhappy.

 

Nope. The complainers (both here and in the Codex) want the attributes to have a big effect with the way of distribution changing the character in a big way.

 

For an example, 3 might would incure severe penalties on damage, not just a smaller bonus. And 18 might would double your damage, not 30% increace. 3 int would mean that your fireball would be an almost  single target spell. It's not about good or bad builds, it's about diferent builds. The "min-maxed" builds would be terrific in some departments, but completely attrocious in others, so you would need to adjust your playstyle. The safer all around good option would be to distribute all your points evenly.

 If you wanted to tweak your character to a spesific built, you would be forced to play on that builds strenghts, or you would be obliterated. 

Dumping any attribute would have severe penalties, and maxing any attribute would have massive benefits. And if all attributes are useful, the number of viable builds (that play completely differently) will be huge, as will be the replayability

 

The way it is now, the diference is so minimal that Helm's trolling has a core of truth

Edited August 23, 2014 by Malekith

[Stun]

 

And miss out on spell levels 5-9? I don't think so. Unless you're intentionally going for a gimped build; Stun has said he enjoys that as a challenge of course.

Technically you could be multiclassing and don't plan on going above spell level four.

 

We were talking about AD&D, anyway. Clerics with 9 wisdom in AD&D can learn Cleric spells of every level. They just don't receive bonus spells. Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

Which edition of D&D are you guys talking about anyway? <_< I know there are four of those, with fifth coming up, but I don't really have any idea which of them Baldur's Gate was based on

[Cabamacadaf]

Every IE game except Icewind Dale 2 is based on 2nd edition, Icewind Dale 2 is based on 3rd.

[Answermancer]

And 5th edition is out, actually, at least the PHB.

[Stun]

Nope. The complainers (both here and in the Codex) want the attributes to have a big effect with the way of distribution changing the character in a big way.

 

For an example, 3 might would incure severe penalties on damage, not just a smaller bonus. And 18 might would double your damage, not 30% increace. 3 int would mean that your fireball would be an almost  single target spell. It's not about good or bad builds, it's about diferent builds. The "min-maxed" builds would be terrific in some departments, but completely attrocious in others, so you would need to adjust your playstyle. The safer all around good option would be to distribute all your points evenly.

 If you wanted to tweak your character to a spesific built, you would be forced to play on that builds strenghts, or you would be obliterated. 

Dumping any attribute would have severe penalties, and maxing any attribute would have massive benefits. And if all attributes are useful, the number of viable builds (that play completely differently) will be huge, as will be the replayability

 

The way it is now, the diference is so minimal that Helm's trolling has a core of truth

Yes. Someone needs to mass email this to Obsidian. And then sticky it at the top of the page for everyone else.

 

Stat design is a big deal. It's current state in PoE is not right and we all know it. Fixing it the way you describe will distinguish this game from every streamlined, casual-friendly RPG to come out in the last decade.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

We were talking about AD&D, anyway. Clerics with 9 wisdom in AD&D can learn Cleric spells of every level. They just don't receive bonus spells.

 

Right: sorry, my bad. I missed that part. I will concede then that yes, a low-WIS cleric is viable in AD&D.

[BrokenMask]

And 5th edition is out, actually, at least the PHB.

Huh, so what is its' thing? Like 4th, but trying to appeal to 3rd fans?

[PrimeJunta]

@Malekith @Stun it looks like we're actually in agreement then, at least about a core issue: the attributes currently don't have sufficiently big mechanical effects. I even posted a thread about this earlier. 

 

Fortunately this ought to be very easy to remedy, just double or triple the effects and reduce the number of stat points accordingly.

 

This could only get problematic if the stat effects become so big they erase the base values from the classes. I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable if a muscle wizard who pumped DEX would hit in melee just about as well as a fighter with moderate DEX. Fighters ought to be better at melee than wizards, because that is what they do.