Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Have you created a game in Baldur's Gate and dumped all the stats yet? Or are you goint to try after you are done insulting? This game has no build diversity unlike the IE games. It doesn't matter where you spend your points. Ok, I'm gonna try one more time to explain this to you with a simple analogy. Let's pretend Fallout New Vegas just released, and you're saying the game is "fundamentally flawed in design" because the Brush Gun deals 140 damage a shot and fires as fast as a 9mm pistol, and therefore you have no motivation to use any weapon but the Brush Gun which boasts the best stats in every category. While that is undeniably an issue, the amount of work that would be required to fix this imbalance (there's that word again!) is so simple that you don't even need to wait for the developers to fix it. You can open the GECK, find the Brush Gun data file, then go to the damage and firing speed stats and tone them down. Spoiler alert: the Brush Gun once fired faster than it does today, but Obsidian released a balance patch to slow it's firing speed down. It didn't take months of coding, tireless work and a complete rehaul and redesign of the game. It took them changing a 2.4 to a 1.2 in the coding. Literally five minutes of work. Nothing you have named spells absolute doom for the game. What you've named is something for Obsidian to consider and possibly open up their game and switch some little number values around. It's imbalance. Imbalance that can either be fixed easily enough thanks to the beta, or even IF it somehow made it to the game, it can still be fixed at any given time via a very small patch or even your own personal balance mod you make (which would be easy enough a 7 year old could do it). To claim the game is fundamentally flawed is absolute nonsense. If you truly believe that though, kindly walk out the door as there's truly no reason for you to be here if it's impossible for this game to be saved now, is there? You're completely hopeless. You choose a class and a trait and and spend attribute points any way you like because it doesn't make a damn difference. Spend them all or spend none, who cares, the difference is minimal. You can use every weapon, every armor and what not at your disposal because there are no stat requirements. You have different spells and abilities, but in the end all you do is either damage or healing and maybe C&C. The game might as well just have one class that specializes in dealing damage and and another class that specializes in healing. There is no building and there is no diversity in this game, it is simply an illusion. And you don't get it. Like I said, start Baldur's Gate, create a character and dump all the stats, then try to play the game. Do the same in PoE. Have fun. Edited August 23, 2014 by Helm Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Longknife Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Have you created a game in Baldur's Gate and dumped all the stats yet? Or are you goint to try after you are done insulting? This game has no build diversity unlike the IE games. It doesn't matter where you spend your points. Ok, I'm gonna try one more time to explain this to you with a simple analogy. Let's pretend Fallout New Vegas just released, and you're saying the game is "fundamentally flawed in design" because the Brush Gun deals 140 damage a shot and fires as fast as a 9mm pistol, and therefore you have no motivation to use any weapon but the Brush Gun which boasts the best stats in every category. While that is undeniably an issue, the amount of work that would be required to fix this imbalance (there's that word again!) is so simple that you don't even need to wait for the developers to fix it. You can open the GECK, find the Brush Gun data file, then go to the damage and firing speed stats and tone them down. Spoiler alert: the Brush Gun once fired faster than it does today, but Obsidian released a balance patch to slow it's firing speed down. It didn't take months of coding, tireless work and a complete rehaul and redesign of the game. It took them changing a 2.4 to a 1.2 in the coding. Literally five minutes of work. Nothing you have named spells absolute doom for the game. What you've named is something for Obsidian to consider and possibly open up their game and switch some little number values around. It's imbalance. Imbalance that can either be fixed easily enough thanks to the beta, or even IF it somehow made it to the game, it can still be fixed at any given time via a very small patch or even your own personal balance mod you make (which would be easy enough a 7 year old could do it). To claim the game is fundamentally flawed is absolute nonsense. If you truly believe that though, kindly walk out the door as there's truly no reason for you to be here if it's impossible for this game to be saved now, is there? You're completely hopeless. You choose a class and a trait and and spend completely meaningless attribute points. 2 "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Grand_Commander13 Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 The people at RPG Codex hate it because they're haters. I mean, look at roshan: he's acting like it's a bad thing for someone designing a game experience to see what players actually do. Imagine that: seeing if the game you've designed does what you want it to. 2 Curious about the subraces in Pillars of Eternity? Check out
Mayama Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 HAHA, you are like the biggest troll here on this forum. The best part is that you are completly oblivious to everything that contradicts your statement. The fact that you dont even get what a troll you are is only the cherry on top.
sparklecat Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 I find it a little strange, personally, to see so many people judging the attributes purely on combat effectiveness and criticising the system/calling some dump stats as a result. Every character I've made thus far as a potential build for when I get to play the entire game, I've been pushing up perception, resolve, and intellect, because I want the conversation/personal interaction options that'll be available from them. Seems more a difference in priorities and playstyle. 1
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 HAHA, you are like the biggest troll here on this forum. The best part is that you are completly oblivious to everything that contradicts your statement. The fact that you dont even get what a troll you are is only the cherry on top. Why are you calling me a troll because I am pointing out how broken the game is? You guys are just all throwing fits instead of countering with sensible arguments. The game is fundamentally flawed, because there is no build diversity. None. Why do you think this thread exists? Did you even read the title? Living in denial must suck. Anyway, the game is broken and needs to be fixed. Sawyer failed. That is it. Edited August 23, 2014 by Helm 2 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 The people at RPG Codex hate it because they're haters. I mean, look at roshan: he's acting like it's a bad thing for someone designing a game experience to see what players actually do. Imagine that: seeing if the game you've designed does what you want it to. They love Divinity: Original Sin though. They like good games, hate bad ones and are very critical. Case closed. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
Mayama Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 HAHA, you are like the biggest troll here on this forum. The best part is that you are completly oblivious to everything that contradicts your statement. The fact that you dont even get what a troll you are is only the cherry on top. Why are you calling me a troll because I am pointing out how broken the game's system are? You guys are just all throwing fits instead of countering with sensible arguments. The game is fundamentally flawed, because there is no build diversity. Why do you think this thread exists? Did you even read the title? Living in denial must suck. Anyway, the game is broken and needs to be fixed. Sawyer failed. That is it. HAHA "living in denial". Self awareness must be completly alien to you. No one needs to counter your rants with sensible arguements. You act like a doom prophet that yells from the corner of the street and everyone ignores him while passing by.
CatatonicMan Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 No, it's fairly obvious that you don't get it. Let me try to sum up your argument, at least with respect to the stats: Characters with the lowest possible stat values are too effective; and/or Characters with the highest possible stat values are not effective enough; and/or The difference in effectiveness between the lowest and highest stat values is not large enough. Now, I'll admit that you may very well be right. Maybe stats below 10 should subtract effectiveness. Maybe stats above 10 should be more effective. Maybe both. What you are failing to grasp is that this is a beta. Things like stat values can change. In fact, changing them is trivial. If stats are not impactful enough, it's a simple matter to make them more so, assuming you can convince the devs to do so. It's not like we're trying to go from 2D isometric to full 3D here. Unbalanced stats are not the end of everything ever. Now, if OE decides that they will never ever change them ever....well, feel free to weep for all that is lost, I guess. Or whatever. Edited August 23, 2014 by CatatonicMan 1
BrokenMask Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Hey Helm, could you stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll?Also, stop being annoyingly smug, you are having attitude of "I'm right, you are wrong, you are troll for continuing to disagree with me because I'm right and I'm always right" <_< You don't shut off debate with "I'm right, case closed, here let me refer to people who agree with me while I'm ignoring everyone else because you are trolls" thats just plain mean And besides, doesn't beta exist for purpose of fixing the game?... It doesn't count as failure until game is released you know You seem trollish because you like saying stuff like "Sawyer failed" to provoke people Edited August 23, 2014 by BrokenMask 2
Mayama Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 No, it's fairly obvious that you don't get it. Let me try to sum up your argument, at least with respect to the stats: Characters with the lowest possible stat values are too effective; and/or Characters with the highest possible stat values are not effective enough; and/or The difference in effectiveness between the lowest and highest stat values is not large enough. Now, I'll admit that you may very well be right. Maybe stats below 10 should subtract effectiveness. Maybe stats above 10 should be more effective. Maybe both. What you are failing to grasp is that this is a beta. Things like stat values can change. In fact, changing them is trivial. If stats are not impactful enough, it's a simple matter to make them more so, assuming you can convince the devs to do so. The only thing he does is whining that the game is broken because some stats need a number tweak. 2
Matt516 Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) There's no fundamental difference between all stats bonuses (boni?) and some stats giving bonuses while others give penalties. -15% to +15% and 0% to 30% are the same, provided the base value is adjusted appropriately. The only difference is in how you perceive it. So let's do away with that objection right now. There's nothing fundamentally better about all stats giving bonuses or some giving bonuses, some giving penalties. If the difference between the bonus of the lowest stat and the bonus of the highest stat is the same, that is. Only difference is in the way its framed, which doesn't make any mechanical difference. Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516 3
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Oh well, there is no use in chit chatting with a bunch of ass kissers. You guys are hopeless.If you like dumbed down games without any diversity, then fine by me. I bet you guys whined that your Sniper in X-Com: Enemy Unknown can't be a Heavy Weapons specialist. That game isn't even an RPG and has more diversity that PoE. Mega Fail. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
CatatonicMan Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Oh well, there is no use in chit chatting with a bunch of ass kissers. You guys are hopeless.If you like dumbed down games without any diversity, then fine by me. I bet you guys whined that your Sniper in X-Com: Enemy Unknown can't be a Heavy Weapons specialist. That game isn't even an RPG and has more diversity that PoE. Mega Fail. M'kay. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I for one am not prepared to declare the end of the world due to minor statistic problems in a beta. I can't see how that's too reasonable, but there you go. Edited August 23, 2014 by CatatonicMan 1
Longknife Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 No, it's fairly obvious that you don't get it. Let me try to sum up your argument, at least with respect to the stats: Characters with the lowest possible stat values are too effective; and/or Characters with the highest possible stat values are not effective enough; and/or The difference in effectiveness between the lowest and highest stat values is not large enough. Now, I'll admit that you may very well be right. Maybe stats below 10 should subtract effectiveness. Maybe stats above 10 should be more effective. Maybe both. What you are failing to grasp is that this is a beta. Things like stat values can change. In fact, changing them is trivial. If stats are not impactful enough, it's a simple matter to make them more so, assuming you can convince the devs to do so. The only thing he does is whining that the game is broken because some stats need a number tweak. Guys I found a bug where the loading screen tip just says "Missing String" instead of providing a tip. This game is fundamentally flawed and completely broken in design. It's never gonna work and you all are delusional ass kissing trolls if you believe it's possible to fix this pathetic mess of a game. Edited August 23, 2014 by Longknife 1 "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
BrokenMask Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Oh well, there is no use in chit chatting with a bunch of ass kissers. You guys are hopeless.If you like dumbed down games without any diversity, then fine by me. I bet you guys whined that your Sniper in X-Com: Enemy Unknown can't be a Heavy Weapons specialist. That game isn't even an RPG and has more diversity that PoE. Mega Fail. <_< You DO know that classic XCOM fans were pissed off by class system in first place because of the weapon restrictions? Anyway, again, you are provoking people by calling them ass kissers. If you don't want to be called a troll, don't try to piss off people. http://kotaku.com/how-to-balance-an-rpg-1625516832 BTW heres on interview with Sawyer about balancing, I guess you should read it to confirm your views on him that you keep spouting about Try to at least give people benefit of the doubt and try to think from their perspective why they disagree with you... Some basic social empathy is good, calling everyone fanboys or trolls is rude Edited August 23, 2014 by BrokenMask 1
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Oh well, there is no use in chit chatting with a bunch of ass kissers. You guys are hopeless.If you like dumbed down games without any diversity, then fine by me. I bet you guys whined that your Sniper in X-Com: Enemy Unknown can't be a Heavy Weapons specialist. That game isn't even an RPG and has more diversity that PoE. Mega Fail. <_< You DO know that classic XCOM fans were pissed off by class system in first place because of the weapon restrictions? Anyway, again, you are provoking people by calling them ass kissers. If you don't want to be called a troll, don't try to piss off people. http://kotaku.com/how-to-balance-an-rpg-1625516832 BTW heres on interview with Sawyer about balancing, I guess you should read it to confirm your views on him that you keep spouting about Try to at least give people benefit of the doubt and try to think from their perspective why they disagree with you... Some basic social empathy is good, calling everyone fanboys or trolls is rude I didn't call anyone a troll. You just can't read very good I guess. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
BrokenMask Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 Suuuuuuuuure you didn't call anyone a troll <_<
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 Suuuuuuuuure you didn't call anyone a troll <_< Ok, now this game starts too. Feel free to point out where I called someone a troll. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
BrokenMask Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) No need to troll because you don't get it. Maybe you should visit the RPG Codex and read what they write. They hate the game for the reasons I just wrote. Simply said, there is no diversity in the game. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-butthurt-release-thread.93694/page-60#post-3450010 Suuuuuuuuure you didn't call anyone a troll <_< Ok, now this game starts too. Feel free to point out where I called someone a troll. So wait, saying "No need to be jackass" ISN'T calling someone a jackass these days?... Edited August 23, 2014 by BrokenMask
Helm Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 :picardfaceplam.jpg: Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
TrueMenace Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 First time reading this thread... and it's turned into flamers who can't have a mature discussion. I think we need to lock this thread. 3 Calibrating...
BrokenMask Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) :picardfaceplam.jpg: Huh. Well, excuse me for English not being my native tongue, but my understanding was that that was always the implication of "No need to be [x], behave better!" sentences <_< You know, since implication is that you are acting like [x] .-. Edited August 23, 2014 by BrokenMask
Mayama Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 First time reading this thread... and it's turned into flamers who can't have a mature discussion. I think we need to lock this thread. It would only start again in another thread, better let it grow in a controlled enviroment.
Recommended Posts