"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[BrokenMask]

 

 

 

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

<_< Eh, doesn't seem to be too difficult with dumbing might, con and dex if you ask me

 

Have you tried it?

 

Let me guess, it is almost the same thing as simply dumping every stat. Amirite? ^^

 

But if you did try it, then you would still have points leftover to spend on your attributes. Hmmmm....

 

If you want to hear how I did it, I maxed out perception, int and resolve and had rest of stats(might/dex/con) be equal. So no, its not same as dumping every stat

Edited August 22, 2014 by BrokenMask

[PrimeJunta]

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

Edited August 22, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Mayama]

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

Why do I have a picture of a tanned and ripped wizard in my head that generates spells by flexing his muscles. Also muscle oil gives +2 to spell success checks.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Mayama

[PrimeJunta]

@PrimeJunta

 

How about ranged attacks?

Can a ranger interrupt with bows too?

 

Absolutely. It's just even less obvious due to the lack of feedback.

[PrimeJunta]

But a ranged hero has alot of dump stats that way, wouldnt it be better to add bonuses to those attributes that ranged party members want?

 

Back-row characters do have two stats they can relatively safely dump (RES and CON), but they have four they actually need.

 

After playing with it for a while, I'm disliking the unintuitive aspects of the character system more than I'm liking the universally useful aspects. I don't think it'd be a big loss to drop the Healing bonus from Might as it doesn't really make sense and doing more damage is universally useful anyway. Maybe move that to CON so it'd be more useful for back-row priests at least, and let back-row wizards dump it if they want.

 

As to RES, you could make it more useful for back-row types by having it affect special ability recovery time. That wouldn't be completely unintuitive.

 

Eh, since everybody's doing this, here's my latest suggestion for revising the stats.

 

MIG - damage

DEX - accuracy

CON - healing, health and stamina

INT - AoE and duration

PER - interrupts and crit chance

RES - recovery time and concentration

 

This would mean that a "pure" support cleric for example could dump MIG and DEX since they wouldn't be interested in scoring hits or doing damage. I don't think that'd necessarily be a bad thing though; it could be an interesting role to play.

Edited August 22, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Longknife]

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

 

I demand a muscular wizard villain in the final product of Pillars of Eternity as an Easter Egg.

[Silent Winter]

Agree with Answermancer's post except that:

It also means that classes that heal need to invest twice as many points if they also want to deal good damage.

isn't such a big deal - you'd choose between being a good healer or a good damage-dealer or try to get both and be lacking in AOE / duration / stamina.

It's not necessary for all characters to be good damage dealers and although it's fine to want to be both, it's not necessarily balanced to let them be both if they're also getting everything else.

I don't mind might governing both, but it'd be ok to shift it to resolve too -

 

 

Yes it is.
 
It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points in it because it hardly has an effect on the AoE.
 
3 int:
[small]
 
18 int:
[larger]

a) That looks like a pretty significant increase in AOE to me (albeit for a large increase in stats) - you'd catch a lot more enemies in it since they're not likely to clump together for your fireball.

b) non-spell-casting classes like the barbarian use AOE too and INT increases duration of abilities for lots of classes.

[Helm]

 

 

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

Yes it is.

 

It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points in it because it hardly has an effect on the AoE.

 

The AOE increase isn't intellect's only effect. It also increases the duration of abilities.

 

I still consider intellect to be a dump stat, but seeing that you can max out 4 attributes anyway, it might be better to dump perception and max out intellect.

 

Oh man, I just don't like this attribute system. It is just a bunch of min-maxing, where you should always max out might, constitution and dexterity.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[aeonsim]

 

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

Yes it is.

 

It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points in it because it hardly has an effect on the AoE.

 

3 int:

 

18 int:

 

Not worth it. A real nice dump stat... unless you want a few more dialogue options. heh

 

But if you did try it, then you would still have points leftover to spend on your attributes. Hmmmm....

 

What are you on about? That's a massive increase in area, it appears that Int effects the radius/diameter of the AOE and in the case above that's approximately a 40% increase, but as area = Pi*R^2 you've just DOUBLED the effective area of effect, combining that with a similar increase in duration and Int is amazingly effective. A stat that allows your AOE spells to double their effective area is not something to dump, unless your building a single target, or target chain based spellcaster.

Edited August 22, 2014 by aeonsim

[Namutree]

 

But a ranged hero has alot of dump stats that way, wouldnt it be better to add bonuses to those attributes that ranged party members want?

 

Back-row characters do have two stats they can relatively safely dump (RES and CON), but they have four they actually need.

 

After playing with it for a while, I'm disliking the unintuitive aspects of the character system more than I'm liking the universally useful aspects. I don't think it'd be a big loss to drop the Healing bonus from Might as it doesn't really make sense and doing more damage is universally useful anyway. Maybe move that to CON so it'd be more useful for back-row priests at least, and let back-row wizards dump it if they want.

 

As to RES, you could make it more useful for back-row types by having it affect special ability recovery time. That wouldn't be completely unintuitive.

 

Eh, since everybody's doing this, here's my latest suggestion for revising the stats.

 

MIG - damage

DEX - accuracy

CON - health and stamina

INT - AoE and duration

PER - interrupts and crit chance

RES - healing and concentration

 

This would mean that a "pure" support cleric for example could dump MIG and DEX since they wouldn't be interested in scoring hits or doing damage. I don't think that'd necessarily be a bad thing though; it could be an interesting role to play.

 

THIS IS PERFECTION!!! 

[Helm]

What are you on about? That's a massive increase in area, it appears that Int effects the radius/diameter of the AOE and in the case above that's approximately a 40% increase, but as area = Pi*R^2 you've just DOUBLED the effective area of effect, combining that with a similar increase in duration and Int is amazingly effective. A stat that allows your AOE spells to double their effective area is not something to dump, unless your building a single target, or target chain based spellcaster.

The area has indeed doubled, but that still isn't a massive increase.

 

Not to mention that the area of the smaller circle is sufficient in practically every combat situation.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[BrokenMask]

 

I still consider intellect to be a dump stat, but seeing that you can max out 4 attributes anyway, it might be better to dump perception and max out intellect.

 

Oh man, I just don't like this attribute system. It is just a bunch min-maxing.

 

So something I don't get <_< If you can max out perception and do just fine, what does it matter which stat you max?

 

Like, seriously, I don't get what people want from stat systems. Apparently its not fine that some stats are non combat stats and some are combat only stats, so everything has to be useful in combat. But if all stats are useful in combat, then the stats that are dump are decided by which is slightly less effective in combat even if both are effective in combat... If the intent is to make it so that you can't have any stat be much lower than other stats, doesn't that mean you have to build characters in certain ways since otherwise character is screwed if one stat is too low?

 

Like, only way to have all stats to be 100% equally useful is to have all stats to be exactly the same. As far as I can think of, best system is where stats lead to varied playstyles and any playstyle and stat combination is viable so anyone can pick what their personal taste is. But some people would still say that some stats are dump because their playstyle requires them to pick stats like that

I'm really confused now what people want from this system <_<

[Longknife]

 

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

 

I demand a muscular wizard villain in the final product of Pillars of Eternity as an Easter Egg.

 

 

 

Oh, and his catchphrase should be "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!"

He should scream it while doing his finishing move on his enemies: the Snapmare Neckbreaker

[Namutree]

 

Like, only way to have all stats to be 100% equally useful is to have all stats to be exactly the same. As far as I can think of, best system is where stats lead to varied playstyles and any playstyle and stat combination is viable so anyone can pick what their personal taste is. But some people would still say that some stats are dump because their playstyle requires them to pick stats like that

I'm really confused now what people want from this system <_<

 

People want different attributes to be useful for different builds. Making a mage-tank? Better put lots of points into CON and RES. Making a super tank fighter? Better put points into CON, RES, and INT. Making a super offensive ranger? Better put points into MIG, DEX, and PER. What about a tank ranger? Put points into CON and RES. It's all about variety and using different builds to their strength.

[Mayama]

 

 

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

 

I demand a muscular wizard villain in the final product of Pillars of Eternity as an Easter Egg.

 

 

 

Oh, and his catchphrase should be "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!"

He should scream it while doing his finishing move on his enemies: the Snapmare Neckbreaker

 

 

Mighty muscle wizard villian flexes biceps, its super effective.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

 

I demand a muscular wizard villain in the final product of Pillars of Eternity as an Easter Egg.

 

 

 

Oh, and his catchphrase should be "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!"

He should scream it while doing his finishing move on his enemies: the Snapmare Neckbreaker

 

 

Mighty muscle wizard villian flexes biceps, its super effective.

 

 

I actually bothered to harass Josh Sawyer over this on his tumblr now and I'll be sorely disappointed if the game does not include at least one badass muscle wizard enemy, complete with custom wrestling animations and a wizard hat straight out of Disney's Fantasia.

 

 

And flexing his biceps should apply an extra damage self-buff.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Longknife

[Helm]

 

I still consider intellect to be a dump stat, but seeing that you can max out 4 attributes anyway, it might be better to dump perception and max out intellect.

 

Oh man, I just don't like this attribute system. It is just a bunch min-maxing.

So something I don't get <_< If you can max out perception and do just fine, what does it matter which stat you max?

 

People like to build their characters.

 

Anyway, the problem is that it doesn't really matter what you do when spending points on your attributes. Maxing out might, constitution and dexterity does seem to be the most helpful for every class though.

 

TBH I think you could dump every single stat and still play the game without any problem at all. The numbers seem to be more cosmetic than anything else, because their usefulness is minimal.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[Namutree]

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what you do. Maxing out might, constitution and dexterity does seem to be the most helpful for every class though.

 

That depends on the build. A very offensive mage might want to neglect CON or DEX in favor of PER. MIG is definitely too appealing for all builds though.

 

 

 

TBH I think you could dump every single stat and still play the game without any problem at all. The numbers seem to be more cosmetic than anything else, because their usefulness is minimal.

 

It would definitely be much harder. I'm pretty sure it would be possible though. Just keep in mind that there are also talents in this game that help us develop our characters as well as attributes.

[Helm]

 

TBH I think you could dump every single stat and still play the game without any problem at all. The numbers seem to be more cosmetic than anything else, because their usefulness is minimal.

It would definitely be much harder. I'm pretty sure it would be possible though. Just keep in mind that there are also talents in this game that help us develop our characters as well as attributes.

 

Yes, but it is simply mind boggling to me that you could dump every attribute and still play the game without any problems. The game would just be somewhat harder and you would also have less dialogue options to choose from.

 

This must be that balanced system that Sawyer was always going on about. ^^

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[Namutree]

 

 

TBH I think you could dump every single stat and still play the game without any problem at all. The numbers seem to be more cosmetic than anything else, because their usefulness is minimal.

It would definitely be much harder. I'm pretty sure it would be possible though. Just keep in mind that there are also talents in this game that help us develop our characters as well as attributes.

 

Yes, but it is simply mind boggling to me that you could dump every attribute and still play the game without any problems. The game would just be somewhat harder and you would also have less dialogue options to choose from.

 

This must be that balanced system that Sawyer was always going on about. ^^

 

It's because Obsidian has decided that talents should be important too. By adding in talents; they downplayed attributes.

[PrimeJunta]

Like, seriously, I don't get what people want from stat systems. Apparently its not fine that some stats are non combat stats and some are combat only stats, so everything has to be useful in combat. But if all stats are useful in combat, then the stats that are dump are decided by which is slightly less effective in combat even if both are effective in combat... If the intent is to make it so that you can't have any stat be much lower than other stats, doesn't that mean you have to build characters in certain ways since otherwise character is screwed if one stat is too low?

 

Like, only way to have all stats to be 100% equally useful is to have all stats to be exactly the same. As far as I can think of, best system is where stats lead to varied playstyles and any playstyle and stat combination is viable so anyone can pick what their personal taste is. But some people would still say that some stats are dump because their playstyle requires them to pick stats like that

I'm really confused now what people want from this system <_<

 

Not necessarily so.

 

Avoiding dump stats is in theory easy: just connect all of them to some combat system which has a tangible effect in combat. Dump something, and you'll notice. Pump something, and you'll notice.

 

The slightly trickier bit is to make it so that there are viable tactics to play with any or most stat combinations. If, say, RES becomes so important that you can't effectively play a front-line character in any way at all because he won't be able to do anything due to constantly getting interrupted, then that's kind of bad. But if you make it so that a low-RES frontliner still works if you use fast weapons, then that's perfectly fine -- dumping RES just directs you to play in a certain way, and of course the effectiveness of that way of playing depends on the situation. The character will shine when facing enemies that are effectively fought with fast weapons, and will be handicapped when facing enemies that are resistant to them. Which is as it should be.

[PrimeJunta]

Another thought -- I think one thing that appears to offend a lot of people is what @Namutree pointed out: that stats just aren't as important in P:E as in D&D. In D&D your stats made the difference between an unplayable character and Deathlord. Missing one point of INT meant that you couldn't take Combat Expertise, which blocked entire feat trees and prestige classes from you. I.e., something you chose at chargen determined the course of your entire career.

 

Personally I didn't like this aspect of the game. I planned my builds beforehand on a spreadsheet sometimes, to make sure I met the requirements for the prestige class I wanted... after ragequitting halfway through because I hadn't noticed that Whirlwind Attack depends on Combat Expertise which has a 15 INT requirement, and I need Whirlwind Attack for the Deathlord prestige class. (Or something, that was just an example that probably didn't happen.) There was a certain satisfaction to getting the power builds just-so, but it wasn't worth the downside IMO.

 

Put another way, a blind choice you make at chargen shouldn't really bite you in the arse ten levels later.

[Helm]

Why even bother and try and build a character by selecting attributes to put points in? You might as well just spend all of your 57 attribute points evenly on every attribute. This works for every class too.

 

 

 Sawyer

[PrimeJunta]

I bathe in your tears, Helm. 

[Helm]

 

 

 

TBH I think you could dump every single stat and still play the game without any problem at all. The numbers seem to be more cosmetic than anything else, because their usefulness is minimal.

It would definitely be much harder. I'm pretty sure it would be possible though. Just keep in mind that there are also talents in this game that help us develop our characters as well as attributes.

 

Yes, but it is simply mind boggling to me that you could dump every attribute and still play the game without any problems. The game would just be somewhat harder and you would also have less dialogue options to choose from.

 

This must be that balanced system that Sawyer was always going on about. ^^

 

It's because Obsidian has decided that talents should be important too. By adding in talents; they downplayed attributes.

 

I haven't played a good RPG that didn't have any talents. That is completely normal.

 

I am just saying that the attribute system is completely superfluous in PoE, unlike in other games.