"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[Vindarten]

People seem to have too much of a D&D mindset on some of the stats.  I have noticed in multiple threads people equating might to strength when that is not at all the equivalent.  Might is simply in reference to the power of your attack (no matter the type) not a reflection of literal muscle strength.  Not sure if people realize the system is set up so you can roll (for example) a wizard with max con and res giving you a hard to interrupt front liner wizard if you want.  Its hard to get out of that D&D comparison in our heads but if you do you'll see the potential.

 

Yeah I agree completely, It seems to me that it is more just an abstraction of how good you are at maximizing your damage from whatever source; you know how to hold you sword and attack in a way that causes the most hurt, you know how far you need to pull the bowstring and reduce resistance to hit the target harder, you know how to channel your uh, spell power or whatever for the greatest effect, etc. Maybe they should just rename it to like discipline or something to divorce it from the concept of physical power, that seems to be what people are getting stuck on.

[Silent Winter]

I tried making a rogue with high Intellect but was disappointed to find that they only had one ability with a duration (Crippling Strike) and none with an AoE, and having a long duration Hobble didn't seem very useful as monsters didn't move around much.  Did anybody have any differnt experiences with Int?  Are there Int dialogue options?  I only found Perception and Lore ones.

Don't rogues get to do their high-damage (not sneak attack but like that) strikes while the status effects are on the enemy (hobbled, prone, etc) - so isn't inflicting a long-term hobble supposed to be good for the rogue?

[Stun]

I love the attribute system as it is currently being implemented. I don't want any changes done to it, though I worry there's going to be some. As Brandon mentioned in the stickies, they're currently eyeing Perception and Resolve for tweaking because, apparently, play testers felt those two stats could be reliably dumped without much consequence (perish the thought! Be Gone with thee, unholy degenerate gameplay opportunity!) Although I'm wondering if those playtesters bothered engaging in this demo's numerous dialogues, almost all of which, painfully for me, contained Perception checks that my min-maxed Barbarian did not qualify for.

 

But more importantly, I don't mind if 1 or 2 of the stats in the system are designed to be unimportant for a specific build of mine. the fact that just about all the rest of them are super important for any build is breath-taking.

 

 

One more thing. If we (backers that have access to beta), geeks, have difficulty understanding this system (at least huge % of us) - do you expect that your 17-y-old modern player will understand?

LOL I don't expect this game to show up on any 17 year old modern gamer's radar in the first place. Nor do I want it to. Some things should remain pure. Like this game. Edited August 22, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

At least so far I'm doing well with having maxed out the "dumb stats" so perhaps its not that bad... Hmm, maybe I should try out normal, I've been playing on easy because of bugs and such

Edited August 22, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Namutree]

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the attribute system. Might/Perception/Resolve could use the tweaks I mentioned before, but overall it works. 

[Zansatsu]

Ya I've changed my mind about it. I didn't really like it at first but the more I think about it I realize it isn't a bad system. Just not what I am used too.

[Helm]

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[Answermancer]

 

I tried making a rogue with high Intellect but was disappointed to find that they only had one ability with a duration (Crippling Strike) and none with an AoE, and having a long duration Hobble didn't seem very useful as monsters didn't move around much.  Did anybody have any differnt experiences with Int?  Are there Int dialogue options?  I only found Perception and Lore ones.

Don't rogues get to do their high-damage (not sneak attack but like that) strikes while the status effects are on the enemy (hobbled, prone, etc) - so isn't inflicting a long-term hobble supposed to be good for the rogue?

 

 

Yup, this is definitely true, but in the beta so far at least things tend to die long before Hobbled has a chance to fall off (in my experience). Since it only affects one enemy, it doesn't matter much if it lasts 15 or 25 seconds because either way it'll get sneak-attacked and focused on before the effect has time to wear off.

 

If anything I'd like rogues to have more conditions they can apply, and/or more uses of something like crippling strike so that:

A. they can apply it to more enemies per combat

B. the durations could be significantly shortened and then Int would be more valuable

 

Of course this would mean more micromanagement which I know a lot of people are opposed to, so maybe the current situation is fine.

[BrokenMask]

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

<_< Eh, doesn't seem to be too difficult with dumbing might, con and dex if you ask me

[Fluffle]

 

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

<_< Eh, doesn't seem to be too difficult with dumbing might, con and dex if you ask me

 

 

Only someone who'd pump Per, Res and Int would say that

[Namutree]

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

Intellect isn't a dump stat as the duration of effects and AOE for certain abilities is important for certain builds. Might is op; which why I suggested moving the it's influence over healing to resolve which would make might less appealing to certain builds. That and we should get 2 less attribute points.

 

Overall the attribute system is fine; it just needs tweaking. Perfectly understandable considering this is just the beta.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Namutree

[Stun]

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

[Longknife]

Even though the "no bad builds" policy of making all attributes equally important for all classes sounded somewhat good on paper, I think its execution has proved a failure. There are still bad builds and dump stats, and even worse than before, it's the same stats for ALL classes now.

 

Every character I make has 18 strength(or more). No matter if it's a fighter, a cleric, or a wizard, it's got to have big muscles because big muscles just make everyone more effective at what they do.

 

Every character I make has minimum perception and resolve because these stats don't do anything.

 

Almost every character I make has maximum dexterity except for support characters.

 

Intellect does nothing for characters that don't use area effects, status effects, or DoTs.

 

Constitution does nothing for characters that don't fight up front.

 

With the old attribute systems that we are familiar with, each class had a cookie-cutter stat distribution. With PoE's system, EVERY CHARACTER has the same cookie-cutter stat distribution. I think that's a step backwards, not forwards.

 

 

I think you're failing to highlight specific problems and naming the WHOLE system a failure rather than examining each part.

 

What your list of complaints tells me is:

 

-Might at least needs some balance review as the community currently believes it to be the best stat hands down. Mind you, we still have a limited view of the game, so keyword is "review." I'd be quick to question this one too as that Cipher thread showed min-Might vs. max-might rewarding ~15% extra damage. Useful but hardly essential, especially for classes that have high damage-per-hit and thus focus on killing things with singular blows, as that 15% is unlikely to show it's face or have a positive effect in the majority of fights.

 

-Perception and Resolve need more significance

 

-We might be receiving way too many stats to distribute as some classes can easily get away with neglecting two stats and practically maxing the other 4.

 

 

 

However, I wouldn't consider this "a step backwards." This is an attempted step forwards. Past RPGs meant wizards max INT, Warriors max STR and archers max Dex. If this RPG meant all classes maxed Might, it'd make little difference as ultimately that old system meant each class just had a different damage stat to pump up and any attempt to try anything new just immediately got you killed. Here, switching out Might for constitution might be considered universally less efficient, but at least it's viable. Compare that to other games where a barbarian with intelligence was utter nonsense, making you question why you're even given the option of statting INT or given a choice is allocating stats at all since most classes relied on beefing up the stats "unique" to them. It's different names is what it was, not actually rewarding different effects.

 

 

 

  Just give them time. By all means, keep voicing complaints and ideas cause constructive criticism and brainstorming is always productive and welcome, but sometimes I read these comments and it just feels like the reaction is "NEW SYSTEM SCARY. ME NOT UNDERSTAND NEW SYSTEM. NEW BAD!!" Mind you not implying you or anyone is stupid, I just think we're being unreasonably bias towards systems we've seen a dozen times over.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Longknife

[Answermancer]

Intellect isn't a dump stat as the duration of effects and AOE for certain abilities is important for certain builds. Might is op; which why I suggested moving the it's influence over healing to resolve which would make might less appealing to certain builds. That and we should get 2 less attribute points.

 

 

Overall the attribute system is fine; it just needs tweaking. Perfectly understandable considering this is just the beta.

 

I feel like you could probably bring Might more in line just by lowering its effect. 1% per point instead of 2%? 1.5%? 0.5%? I think they could probably find a sweet spot. That's assuming it really is OP, I am not convinced of that yet because I think compared to Dex and Con it is pretty similar in value, I'd rather they fix Per and Res before I say for sure that Might is OP.

 

That said I'm not crazy about your suggestion of splitting off Healing since it basically makes one stat ONLY useful for certain classes (classes that can heal) whereas no other stat is designed with this limitation. It would make Res an automatic dump stat on any non-healing character with no consequence at all, a worse situation than we have now I think.

 

It also means that classes that heal need to invest twice as many points if they also want to deal good damage.

 

I don't know, it could probably work but I'd prefer one of the other solutions that make Res and Per good on their own without reducing the effectiveness of the other stats (and possibly lower the effect of Might if it is currently too desirable).

 

However, maybe making Res increase Healing Taken would be interesting? Like 2% more healing received from each healing effect?

Or how about we go crazy:

2% more healing from each healing effect, and 2% of each heal also heals Health instead of just Stamina.

 

This would make Res a very good stat for tanks and a pretty good one for everyone else.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Answermancer

[PrimeJunta]

I've done a bit more checking out with the Interrupt mechanic, and contrary to what I thought it actually is significant. Very significant even. Try completely dumping RES on a front-line fighter, equip a slow weapon, wade into melee, and watch him not being able to get any hits in. Then do the same but pump RES. Then dump/pump PER and watch him stunlock/not stunlock enemies. Big difference in viability. Like CON, RES is less important for back-row glass cannons of course.

 

I think the main problem is the lack of feedback. Especially with melee and moreso for fast weapons, it's hard to tell when a character interrupts/is interrupted; it just looks like he's standing there doing nothing getting pounded. If they added a sound and flash effect that also appeared on the portrait, it'd be a lot clearer.

 

I.e. I'm warming up to RES and PER. Not so dumpy after all.

Edited August 22, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Mayama]

I've done a bit more checking out with the Interrupt mechanic, and contrary to what I thought it actually is significant. Very significant even. Try completely dumping RES on a front-line fighter, equip a slow weapon, wade into melee, and watch him not being able to get any hits in. Then do the same but pump RES. Then dump/pump PER and watch him stunlock/not stunlock enemies. Big difference in viability. Like CON, RES is less important for back-row glass cannons of course.

 

I think the main problem is the lack of feedback. Especially with melee and moreso for fast weapons, it's hard to tell when a character interrupts/is interrupted; it just looks like he's standing there doing nothing getting pounded. If they added a sound and flash effect that also appeared on the portrait, it'd be a lot clearer.

 

I.e. I'm warming up to RES and PER. Not so dumpy after all.

 

So the basic problem is that back line party members dont have a reason to put points into those 3 stats.

[PrimeJunta]

It's not really a problem IMO. It's a choice. Most classes allows enough flexibility to decide whether you want a toon to be frontline or back-row, and the abilities let you implement that. That's good as far as I'm concerned. (And the classes that don't really have that flexibility—fighter, monk, barbarian—are front-liners and so will find all stats useful.)

[Fluffle]

@PrimeJunta

 

How about ranged attacks?

Can a ranger interrupt with bows too?

[Mayama]

It's not really a problem IMO. It's a choice. Most classes allows enough flexibility to decide whether you want a toon to be frontline or back-row, and the abilities let you implement that. That's good as far as I'm concerned. (And the classes that don't really have that flexibility—fighter, monk, barbarian—are front-liners and so will find all stats useful.)

 

But a ranged hero has alot of dump stats that way, wouldnt it be better to add bonuses to those attributes that ranged party members want?

[Namutree]

It's not really a problem IMO. It's a choice. Most classes allows enough flexibility to decide whether you want a toon to be frontline or back-row, and the abilities let you implement that. That's good as far as I'm concerned. (And the classes that don't really have that flexibility—fighter, monk, barbarian—are front-liners and so will find all stats useful.)

Exactly! It's all about using you build to it's strengths. The only big issue is how op might is, and as I've stated before; just move the healing influence over to RES and the attribute system is pretty good.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Namutree

[Longknife]

I've done a bit more checking out with the Interrupt mechanic, and contrary to what I thought it actually is significant. Very significant even. Try completely dumping RES on a front-line fighter, equip a slow weapon, wade into melee, and watch him not being able to get any hits in. Then do the same but pump RES. Then dump/pump PER and watch him stunlock/not stunlock enemies. Big difference in viability. Like CON, RES is less important for back-row glass cannons of course.

 

I think the main problem is the lack of feedback. Especially with melee and moreso for fast weapons, it's hard to tell when a character interrupts/is interrupted; it just looks like he's standing there doing nothing getting pounded. If they added a sound and flash effect that also appeared on the portrait, it'd be a lot clearer.

 

I.e. I'm warming up to RES and PER. Not so dumpy after all.

 

 

See?

 

The Beta's been out a couple days and people are already like "LOL OBSIDIAN U HAV NO IDEA WHAT U DOIN I BEEN PLAYIN RPGS FOR YEARS AND HAVE EXACTLY 0 DEGREES IN RPG PLAYOLOGY BECAUSE THAT DOES NOT EXIST AS A CONCEPT, SCOFF SCOFF SCOFF EXCUSE ME AS I TELL U HOW INFERIOR YOUR SYSTEM IS FROM MY COMFY ARMCHAIR"

 

They're not dumb. They've done this before. MULTIPLE times. I get we're totally prone to seem bias towards stats we're familiar with and understand (the sheer amount of posts complaining Wizards get use from Might and defining the abstract word "Might" as instantly meaning ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables is a testament to that), but we're viewing a very limited Beta, we've no idea the scope of enemies we'll see within the game or what counter-measures will be needed when and ffs two years ago we all threw money at these guys in good faith they know what they're doing.  Fast forward two years, you can actually play a human archer and not have it be undeniably inferior to an elven archer and people are flipping over their desks in a fit of rage and lighting kittens on fire because change is scary.

 

 

 We're Beta testers. If we care about the project let's run through the game and test this stuff out. Don't just say "I dun feel like putting Resolve on my -insert class here- therefore it's useless," go try it out.

 

 

Exactly! It's all about using you build to it's strengths. The only big issue is how op might is, and as I've stated before; just move the healing (and support) influence over to RES and the attribute system is pretty good.

 

 

Just wanna voice that I love this suggestion. Might is offensive in nature, if it holds a defensive and support role aswell then yeah it gains importance. Just conveniently re-arrange those parts and hand them over to a lesser-used stat.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Longknife

[Helm]

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

Yes it is.

 

It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points in it because it hardly has an effect on the AoE.

 

3 int:

 

18 int:

 

Not worth it. A real nice dump stat... unless you want a few more dialogue options. heh

 

 

 

I don't like the attribute system. Intellect is a dump stat, there is no reason to not max out might for every class, two attributes are used in combat solely for interrupts (this mechanic makes more sense as a class talent anyway), attributes don't affect your defense stats in any way, you can easily max out 4 (!) attributes.... and so on.

 

This has to be one of the most transparent and senseless attribute systems I have ever seen. To be honest, PoE might as well just only have three attributes (might, constitution and dexterity) the rest are pretty superfluous.

<_< Eh, doesn't seem to be too difficult with dumbing might, con and dex if you ask me

 

Have you tried it?

 

Let me guess, it is almost the same thing as simply dumping every stat. Amirite? ^^

 

But if you did try it, then you would still have points leftover to spend on your attributes. Hmmmm....

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helm

[Namutree]

 

I feel like you could probably bring Might more in line just by lowering its effect. 1% per point instead of 2%? 1.5%? 0.5%?

The issue with might isn't how strong it is; it's how many builds rely on it. Simply by moving healing over to RES you would be making might less appealing for certain builds.

[Mayama]

 

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

Yes it is.

 

It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points it because it only has an effect on the AoE.

  

Not worth it. A real nice dump stat... unless you want a few more dialogue options. heh

 

 

 

No play a dot mage and look how he does without any INT. Max into is also so good on priests that its basicaly broken, area of effect/over time heals like crescendet ground are rediculous OP with max int.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Mayama

[Namutree]

 

Intelligence isn't a dump stat, Unless you want your mage's fireball to be a single-target spell, and your barbarian to be no different than an underpowered fighter.

Yes it is.

 

It is useless for any non spell casting class, and even then it doesn't make sense to put points in it because it hardly has an effect on the AoE.

 

The AOE increase isn't intellect's only effect. It also increases the duration of abilities.