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Experience point system in the beta and onwards


Your thoughts on the xp system in the beta  

217 members have voted

  1. 1. What kind of xp system to do you want to see after having played the beta?

    • Quest xp only
      30
    • Quest xp and objectives that are large in scope
      52
    • Objective xp that are per dungeon or per map (minus bosses), including exploration and quest xp
      78
    • Objective xp per encounter (including "trash mobs"), per picked lock, per sneak, etc., plus quest xp
      53
    • Kill xp plus quest xp
      76


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Even without kill-xp if your wiling to skip an entire dungeon with your maxed diplomacy you are short changing yourself of a huge area that was designed by obsidian, any potential treasures or enemy drops and possibly flavor or rolepaly text.

 

Is XP the only reason you do dungeons?

 

If I'm roleplaying a diplomat or a trickster or a scholar or a pampered noble who has no reason or intentions of getting to damp, cramped spaces where various monsters try to kill him/her just for the hell of it, then yes, the only reason for me to break character and go down is the fact that my character would be severely underleveled/geared if I skipped that content.

 

 

Soo... he will likely be undergeared still if you avoid every dungeon you possibly can in PoE regardless.. or are you still trolling?

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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I'm okay with removing entirely combat xp if only the maps are void of the so called trash mobs.

 

there are other methods to avoid people grinding for the sake of it such as implementing a diminishing return mechanic where players get progressively less experience from fighting the same enemy again and again.

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I'm okay with removing entirely combat xp if only the maps are void of the so called trash mobs.

 

there are other methods to avoid people grinding for the sake of it such as implementing a diminishing return mechanic where players get progressively less experience from fighting the same enemy again and again.

 

The problem with removing trashmobs is that those maps start to feel empty. That is a problem when you want to make a game with exploration.

Edited by Sarex
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Imo an ideal exp system would give exp each time you enter a new area (areas not always being each individual map), do a quest, and complete a decently big objective. Exploration based exp is simply a must have. I don't really like killbased exp, I could live with some potential implementation of it though.

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I'm okay with removing entirely combat xp if only the maps are void of the so called trash mobs.

 

there are other methods to avoid people grinding for the sake of it such as implementing a diminishing return mechanic where players get progressively less experience from fighting the same enemy again and again.

 

The problem with removing trashmobs is that those maps start to feel empty.

 

 

Starting to feel the effects of Occams Razor.. everyone understands the problem but the easiest solution.. do what IE did.. is just not an option on the table.. instead we need things to randomly drop epic items.. or not exist at all.. or hand place little clouds of xp in random places..

 

Seriously.. can we just do what IE did to solve this problem.. that is the game that was kickstarted...

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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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Immortalis: I hear you. I wonder how Josh & Co will be reasoning in this case? Or perhaps all this is due to heavy xp system bugs? It could be that an intricate small-increment xp per encounter system already is in place? But I fear not atm.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Unfortunately, a lot of the mechanics of the IE games have been deemed "degenerative gameplay" and have been removed in favor of the systems you see now.

 

Funny thing: Such thinking only seems to hatch new "degenerative gameplay". It's humans vs UI and simple systems/AI we're talking about here. :)

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

 

By erratic I mean that there is no character progression for doing things you want, but only for the things the developers feel won't harm the ballance of the game. Or to put in more simply you don't get any instant satisfaction from the game.

 

 

 

I specifically called for using part of the area xp budget to reward challenging fights and small related goals (eg. clearing the path of bugs). I also called for an encounter- or milestone-based redistribution of quest xp. If you get rewarded for challenging fights that are independent from any other tasks, small quest-independent goals and specific encounters within a quest, that should be enough instant satisfaction, methinks.

 

 

 

Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept of someone with a principle of "after negotiating with someone, I don't turn back to murderize them, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath".

 

None of the IE games did this. The power curve was set, that if you did all the quest (normally) the game would have been easy.

 

 

 

Erm wut. The fact that there is a level cap and later on there won't be a discrepancy between Team Frag Guy who eagerly slaughters his allies to win favor with the Dark Gods experience doesn't make it okay to reward immersion-breaking behavior "because there's a level cap and down the line it won't matter". That's just bad design.

 

 

 

U w0t m8.

 

 

I'll take this as you just being religiously addicted to one side and ran out of logical things to say.. I never trolled you or paid you a diservice.. if your gonna **** post please take it to /b/ or the codex. Thanks.

 

 

Your post to which I replied with that had nothing to do with my post to which you were replying. Therefore "u w0t m8" is a fairly reasonable (if not very eloquent) response on my part.

 
 

 

 

Couldn't this be fixed with some "successfully snuck past this encounter once"-tag/flag? And then the player gets rewarded just as much as the more murderous bunch? They will only get kill xp once, I mean, the critters are gone once dead, hehe.  :)

 

Yes, it's fairly easily fixed, but the original question was "why is double dipping a problem at all", not "how can we solve this problem?"  :p

 

 

We never said this.. Double dipping can be a problem.. but munchkins will always find a way.. its not the biggest problem.

 

 

Dude...

 

 

 

Ok, I understand this, but my question is why should they care?

 

 

I bolded the relevant parts.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Funny thing: Such thinking only seems to hatch new "degenerative gameplay". It's humans vs UI and simple systems/AI we're talking about here. :)

Shhh. If you say that then they will be "fixing" the game for eternity. :p

 

I haven't played yet but I plan to install PoE tonight after work (thanks to the generosity of a fellow poster gifting me a key). I am concerned about the things Ive read and seen so far (constant resting, no kill xp is wonky) but Ill give it a fair shake tonight.

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If I'm roleplaying a diplomat or a trickster or a scholar or a pampered noble who has no reason or intentions of getting to damp, cramped spaces where various monsters try to kill him/her just for the hell of it, then yes, the only reason for me to break character and go down is the fact that my character would be severely underleveled/geared if I skipped that content.

 

 

Soo... he will likely be undergeared still if you avoid every dungeon you possibly can in PoE regardless.. or are you still trolling?

 

 

I do not appreciate your accusations of trolling, but I'll bite.

 

a/ There might be quests where a character's revulsion for damp caves full of creepy-crawlies might be overruled with the promise of certain rewards - say, ph4t l00t in the case of the trickster/thief, ancient secrets whose unearthing will bring unprecedented academic fame and tenure at a recognized university for  the scholar, a MacGuffin that might Unite the Nations and Bring Peace to ALL TEH LANDZ for the diplomat, etc. That means a very selective and on a case-by-case skipping of dungeons, not all of them.

 

b/ If a character is going for noncombat resolutions whenever possible, that means he's way less dependent on loot and especially consumables than someone who always jumps in combat whenever possible, so being slightly undergeared doesn't pose as much of a problem as being underleveled does.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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I specifically called for using part of the area xp budget to reward challenging fights and small related goals (eg. clearing the path of bugs). I also called for an encounter- or milestone-based redistribution of quest xp. If you get rewarded for challenging fights that are independent from any other tasks, small quest-independent goals and specific encounters within a quest, that should be enough instant satisfaction, methinks.

 

I disagree, I don't think that will be enough.

 

 

Erm wut. The fact that there is a level cap and later on there won't be a discrepancy between Team Frag Guy who eagerly slaughters his allies to win favor with the Dark Gods experience doesn't make it okay to reward immersion-breaking behavior "because there's a level cap and down the line it won't matter". That's just bad design.

 

But this system is worse design if you wanna put it that way. This was mentioned way, way back, maybe not even in this thread or on this topic, there is no bulletproof system. You think that there won't be exploits for the system you described? Think again.

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Have you played the beta, aluminiumtrioxid?

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Funny thing: Such thinking only seems to hatch new "degenerative gameplay". It's humans vs UI and simple systems/AI we're talking about here. :)

Shhh. If you say that then they will be "fixing" the game for eternity. :p

 

I haven't played yet but I plan to install PoE tonight after work (thanks to the generosity of a fellow poster gifting me a key). I am concerned about the things Ive read and seen so far (constant resting, no kill xp is wonky) but Ill give it a fair shake tonight.

 

Too late, your opinion will already be influenced by what you have already read ;)

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I specifically called for using part of the area xp budget to reward challenging fights and small related goals (eg. clearing the path of bugs). I also called for an encounter- or milestone-based redistribution of quest xp. If you get rewarded for challenging fights that are independent from any other tasks, small quest-independent goals and specific encounters within a quest, that should be enough instant satisfaction, methinks.

 

I disagree, I don't think that will be enough.

 

 

Then we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that *shrug*.

 

 

Erm wut. The fact that there is a level cap and later on there won't be a discrepancy between Team Frag Guy who eagerly slaughters his allies to win favor with the Dark Gods experience doesn't make it okay to reward immersion-breaking behavior "because there's a level cap and down the line it won't matter". That's just bad design.

 

But this system is worse design if you wanna put it that way. This was mentioned way, way back, maybe not even in this thread or on this topic, there is no bulletproof system. You think that there won't be exploits for the system you described? Think again.

 

 

The current system is worse design, no arguments about that. Given the fact that it blatantly disregards everything that made previous no-kill-xp systems work, it's not very surprising. Also, I'm not arguing for the objective xp system being superior, I'm arguing for it being a lot more work-intensive to implement properly than a more granular objective xp system in place of what we currently have.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Too late, your opinion will already be influenced by what you have already read ;)

 

Heh, you must not have read many of his post on the topic of PoE.

 

 

The current system is worse design, no arguments about that. Given the fact that it blatantly disregards everything that made previous no-kill-xp systems work, it's not very surprising. Also, I'm not arguing for the objective xp system being superior, I'm arguing for it being a lot more work-intensive to implement properly than a more granular objective xp system in place of what we currently have.

 

Well I'm not looking to make things easy for them, I wanted them to make the best system possible. If they aren't up to the task, well then they shouldn't have messed with the original system.

Edited by Sarex
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Seriously.. can we just do what IE did to solve this problem.. that is the game that was kickstarted...

Unfortunately, a lot of the mechanics of the IE games have been deemed "degenerative gameplay" and have been removed in favor of the systems you see now.

 

 

IE wasn't perfect I understand it.. but at this point people have tried the beta.. seen the problem.. and now we are getting every suggestion under the sun other then the one that worked..

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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Funny thing: Such thinking only seems to hatch new "degenerative gameplay". It's humans vs UI and simple systems/AI we're talking about here. :)

Shhh. If you say that then they will be "fixing" the game for eternity. :p

 

I haven't played yet but I plan to install PoE tonight after work (thanks to the generosity of a fellow poster gifting me a key). I am concerned about the things Ive read and seen so far (constant resting, no kill xp is wonky) but Ill give it a fair shake tonight.

 

Too late, your opinion will already be influenced by what you have already read ;)

 

Not really, Gfted1 has been against quest only XP since the very beginning.

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Not really, Gfted1 has been against quest only XP since the very beginning.

 

 

I think it's more fair to say he was leaning towards kill -xp but had an open mind.. I fear the beta will close his mind wide shut and brace the doors with any furniture he can find. :lol:

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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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The current system is worse design, no arguments about that. Given the fact that it blatantly disregards everything that made previous no-kill-xp systems work, it's not very surprising. Also, I'm not arguing for the objective xp system being superior, I'm arguing for it being a lot more work-intensive to implement properly than a more granular objective xp system in place of what we currently have.

 

Well I'm not looking to make things easy for them, I wanted them to make the best system possible.

 

 

C'mon dude. Poll currently shows the majority of voters are actually fine with the lack of kill xp. Enforcing the devs to implement it means less designer resources for rebalancing and less programmer resources for bughunting. I, personally, would find it a lot more annoying if combat was plagued by disappearing items and horrible pathfinding than having the game reward me on a per-encounter basis instead of a per-kill one.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Immortalis: In its current state, you might as well add "filling all cracks and crevices with grime and dirt" as well.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Not really, Gfted1 has been against quest only XP since the very beginning.

 

 

I think it's more fair to say he was leaning towards kill -xp but had an open mind.. I fear the beta will close his mind wide shut and brace the doors with any furniture he can find. :lol:

 

My cross to bear was the "rest spot". :lol:

 

I definitely prefer kill XP but Im not married to it unless the alternative sucks. I thought objective XP worked in Shadowrun but it really sounds like a stinker in PoE.

 

 

Immortalis: In its current state, you might as well add "filling all cracks and crevices with grime and dirt" as well.

You guys are worrying me. I want to love this game but I already see myself walking away from it. ;(

 

Maybe I shouldn't play the Beta. :biggrin:

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C'mon dude. Poll currently shows the majority of voters are actually fine with the lack of kill xp. Enforcing the devs to implement it means less designer resources for rebalancing and less programmer resources for bughunting. I, personally, would find it a lot more annoying if combat was plagued by disappearing items and horrible pathfinding than having the game reward me on a per-encounter basis instead of a per-kill one.

 

I agree, the xp system is not the be all end all of part of the game and it shouldn't take a disproportionate amount of time from the devs, that is why I want then to switch the system to something they already know, let them give it another shot in the expansion or the next game where they have the time to brain storm and give it more time.

 

Whatever they decide to do with the xp system, I doubt that the game will meet it's deadline, the question is will putting in the IE system take longer then taking the time to figure out how offten they should award xp with the current system.

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