Perception, Resolve, and dump stats! Oh, my!

[Ganrich]

So, as stated in the "Known Issues" post they are looking for ways to make Resolve and Perception more useful.  I figured we could brain storm to come up with some ideas to assist the Devs in this regard.  Currently, they aren't useless, but they are far less useful than the other four stats.  This is of course from a Combat Perspective, and the solutions need to come from a Combat angle.  Adding more dialogue options or scripted interactions won't fix this, and will create other issues.  Something akin to PST where people get a certain amount of Cha, Wis, and Int to get all the dialgogue options isn't what we need.  We need Combat solutions.  This is in my opinion of course.

 

When the stats were changed up Perception had Armor Piercing attatched to it as well as Interrupt, and I do believe prior to the stat switch a while back it governed Critical Damage.  I don't know the viability of bringing either of those bonuses back, but it is something to look at. 

 

Resolve is completely reactive.  It only has an effect if the character gets hit, and there is enough control in the game to allow a ranged PC to stay at the back and avoid being hit most of the time thus not requiring a high Resolve. 

I am not sure if you can get away with a severe dump in either of these stats.  I have kept them both at around 10, and did not noticed being interrupted much on the resolve side.  If anyone has tried a complete dump (3-5 points in the stat) how did you fair?  Was it noticeable? Perception at a low level wouldn't be noticeable, if it is dumped I would guess.

 

So, what would you do with Perception?  What about Resolve?

 

[Sensuki]

Here's a post I made on Something Awful on August 11th about this issue

 

Effect Reduction, same with action speed. These are the two most obvious choices for me. Interrupt and Concentration could become the minor bonuses of the attribute, rather than the major (ie. they're not the things you take them for, kind of like healing with might).

 

So you could do like

 

Might: +%Damage & +%Healing
Constitution: +%Stamina and +%Health
Dexterity: -%Recovery Time (& -%Reload time)
Perception: +%Accuracy & +%Interrupt
Intellect: +%AoE Size & +%Durations
Resolve: -%Hostile Durations & +%Concentration

 

(Not forgetting that Might & Con increase Fortitude, Dex and Per increase Reflex and Int and Res increase Will Defenses)

 

Make the Interrupt system simpler and only apply on hits and grazes, whether it is still a chance to succeed or a straight check against Resolve.

 

This also allows for another character concept: The "Fast Character". Where a Mighty character might cause more damage on a single hit, and an Intelligent character might cause more damage (or durations) due to hitting more people with their abilities/for longer, a fast character might be competitive in these aspects by getting the opportunity to take more actions to do so - which would need to be balanced.

 

Depending on what numbers are needed to achieve ~balance with Might and Intellect, maybe the standard recovery time needs to be increased a bit to compensate if something like this was to be added though, so the combat doesn't feel too fast (so that 10 Dex gives the standard amount now). That might make the numbers a little bit more unintuitive but that's what the recovery bar is for (for those that will use it). But that may not be the case.

 

I also posted pretty much the same thing in the Attribute theory thread like 8 months ago.

 

Armor Pierce (Penetration) is crap because it's basically the same as having more damage, except it does nothing against unarmored targets, which makes it inferior to straight damage, and Might already controls straight damage.

 

Critical Damage is also crap because it only applies on a Critical, and scoring a critical is reliant on your accuracy, which means that if Perception was to control that, then (once again, just like Interrupt) it would be reliant on having a good Dexterity score as well.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[mrmonocle]

Resolve less health is drawn from you when you recharge stamina, combat stamina regeneration rate. Mind negative status effects wear off quiker.

Perception governs castspeed.

[Ganrich]

@Sensuki - I believe I remember your post.  I probably argued against +attack speed being governed by an attribute for fear of balancing getting too out of whack, but... having played the game I think it would work.  There would still be a tight rope walk when considering haste abilities though. 

 

My one critique is your change to resolve.  They are both defensive bonuses.  A player focusing on Offense will likely still dump the stat to at least 10 especially if they are a ranged class.  I don't know though.  It could work.

 

@mrmonocle - I think moving cast speed to Dexterity, and accuracy + interrupt being governed by Intellect would be better (as sensuki suggested).  1) for verisimilitude, and 2) interrupt still needs to be a governed if Resolve concentration is an issue that is also governed by a stat.

 

I like the idea of Resolve bettering the stamina/health ratio, and increasing stamina recharge though. 

[sparklecat]

Perception helps one fill in the Cyclopedia, right?  For all I know, this may already exist, but could having more information there give combat bonuses?

[Sensuki]

@Sensuki - 

 

My one critique is your change to resolve.  They are both defensive bonuses.  A player focusing on Offense will likely still dump the stat to at least 10 especially if they are a ranged class.  I don't know though.  It could work.

 

Constitution is also purely defensive. Those are the natures of those attributes.

 

I admit, I can totally see ranged characters still dumping Resolve, but I can also totally see them leaving Con at 10 as well.

 

I really don't think splitting Stamina and Health is a good decision. YMMV.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Ganrich]

The Lore skill helps with the Cyclopedia.  No attribute governs it.  Perception increases Interrupt chance and increases your Reflex (along with Dexterity).

[Answermancer]

I think Sensuki's ideas sound pretty solid, I also argued against attack speed a few months ago I think based on the idea that faster action speed improves too many things at once and would be hard to balance. But considering the speed of actions in the actual game, and how many things reduce it (in terms of armor) I think it might work okay.

 

I think Resolve still being purely defensive is a good point though, but I like the symmetry between Int boosting your durations and Resolve lowering enemy durations, so I have mixed feelings there.

 

I agree that Penetration would be a poor choice not only because it's just another form of damage like you said, but also because it seems like it'd be really weird to balance unless you can have fractional Penetration. I mean would 10 be the point where you get 0 Penetration? If so what's the penalty for making it lower than 10? If 3 is the 0 point then you could potentially make a character with 15+ Penetration? Considering that DT seems to have a pretty low range that would be pretty ridiculous.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Answermancer

[Ganrich]

 

@Sensuki - 

 

My one critique is your change to resolve.  They are both defensive bonuses.  A player focusing on Offense will likely still dump the stat to at least 10 especially if they are a ranged class.  I don't know though.  It could work.

 

Constitution is also purely defensive. Those are the natures of those attributes.

 

I admit, I can totally see ranged characters still dumping Resolve, but I can also totally see them leaving Con at 10 as well.

 

I really don't think splitting Stamina and Health is a good decision. YMMV.

 

 

That is fair.  Yeah, I once wanted Stamina and Health split up, but now I am not sure.  Even if you split them the only attributes that make much sense to govern Health and stamina are might and Resolve.  Resolve replaces a defensive boost with a defensive boost, and I doubt we will see Josh remove healing from Might anyway we cut it.

 

I need to sleep on this.  Hopefully some more ideas come overnight.

[mrmonocle]

Why not make perception penetrate elemental DTs? Makes it a viable option for a mage

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Why not make perception penetrate elemental DTs? Makes it a viable option for a mage

 

Because it should be viable for everyone else who isn't a mage, too, and because it would only increase damage on opponents who have elemental DTs, making it inferior to Might.

[BrokenMask]

Its always weird to notice that stats I have usually the highest are always the stats people declare to be dumb stats

[Namutree]

Is morale an issue in poe? If so; resolve could make you a bit harder to frighten. This does assume you are keeping it's current effect as well.

[Headbomb]

From another thread:

My solution

Add a small +%Crit Chance to Perception, on top of +% Interrupt. You need to be perceptive to see openings, and Dexterity doesn't lose it's thing.

Remove +Will from Intelligence. Intelligence has nothing to do with willpower, and now Resolve can stand on its own.

[aeonsim]

Adding a small increase in critical chance to perception would seem to make sense.

 

For Resolve several possibilities occur, any one of the following might work:

1. Add a small amount of stamina recharge during combat
2. Adjust the stamina to damage ratio slightly
3. A chance to down grade a successful attack one level, ie Hit -> Graze

Thematically they could work as those with great resolve will work above and beyond expectations, or are able to shrug off minor difficulties without being discouraged.

 

I personally think adding a small amount of stamina recovery might work best. Thus characters of great resolve will be able to fight longer than those lacking resolve. It would stack fairly nicely with fighters as well allowing the creation of fighters who will continue to fight and with high enough resolve, they'll fight till they die.

 

It would also allow back line fighters a chance to briefly join the front light or recover slowly from the odd hit or two.

Edited August 19, 2014 by aeonsim

[Sir Davion]

My proposal:

 

There are 6 attributes and you have 3 pairs of attributes which kind of go together for the calculation for defense.

 

Might: Damage and Healing, Fortitude

+

Constitution: Stamina and Health, Fortitude

 

 

Dexterity: Accuracy, Reflex

+

Perception: Interrupt, Reflex

 

 

Intellect:  AoE and Duration, Will

+

Resolve:  Concentration, Will

 

 

Just reduce the gain of some of the main attributes that are a no brainer and give it to resolve and perception.

 

The two simplest examples would be to reduce the gain of accuracy per point in dexterity (still keep it the main attribute for raising accuracy ofc) and give perception the lost accuracy at a lower raise of accuracy per point spent. So perception would get some accuracy and interrupt. Same could be made for the other pair (Intellect + Resolve). But you could also use other attributes and it would still make sense roleplay wise. Perception could give a small bonus to damage and healing or Resolve could get a small bonus to health and endurance.

 

That way you wouldn't need to change the overall balancing of the games because characters could suddenly have higher damage or accuracy than the game is balanced for and it would make the stats more viable.

[Hormalakh]

I think if bonus damage secondary to might was not "pure" damage, the penetration might be more beneficial. For example, if bonus damage was negated at a higher percentage with armored enemies (only 25% of damage would by-pass armor) and this percentage increased with penetration. That way the two systems work together so that MIGHT really needs PERCEPTION to be effective.

[Sensuki]

Damage as a whole is already negated by DT. That's like a pointless secondary system on top of an already very clear one (no offense).

 

Percentile reduction of DT is also bad as well, Might still wins out until you start adding some really wonky values - which will throw out the attribute balance. You have to keep in mind that you're limited to what would be balanced alongside a +1 rate of Accuracy and a +2% of damage & health/stamina, which seems to be the flat rate atm.

[Karkarov]

Just make perception give a deflection bonus and give it bonus critical damage back.  Make resolves impact on your defenses stronger and more obvious (everyone gets hit, the bad guys have ranged characters too), and or give it a bonus so high resolve makes your non direct damage attacks more likely to land/stronger.  Such as charm spells, fears, diseases, blah blah blah.  That will make it plenty attractive to casters.

 

Though really I think the best thing to do, which may not be possible and is a little balsy....

 

Is admit a 6 stat system is not well balanced for what we are doing here, scrap perception and resolve, create a new stat that does everything they do, and rename it something like Acumen or Acuity.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

Adding deflection back into the mix isn't something Josh Sawyer is willing to do I don't think. That would be another option though, I would rather tie that to Dexterity than Perception, and have Perception control accuracy instead if that was the case.

 

Your idea for Resolve alters the fundamental way that the attack resolution system works, and that's something that they want to be consistent across all rules, avoiding the edge cases that D&D has.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[mrmonocle]

Summury thus far:

 

might = damage+healing

dex=accuracy (I'd add attacks of opportunity evasion)

con=health+stamina

per=interrupt+crit chance

int=duration and area of effect

res=concentration+health drain for stamina restoration.

[Karkarov]

Adding deflection back into the mix isn't something Josh Sawyer is willing to do I don't think. That would be another option though, I would rather tie that to Dexterity than Perception, and have Perception control accuracy instead if that was the case.

 

Your idea for Resolve alters the fundamental way that the attack resolution system works, and that's something that they want to be consistent across all rules, avoiding the edge cases that D&D has.

I hate to tell you, and Obsidian this, Sensuki but if you wanted to avoid dump stats you shouldn't have gone with a 6 stat system just to be reminiscent of D&D.  The same D&D that is king of the dump stats.

 

Also perception makes far more sense for deflection than Dexterity because the biggest part of parrying an attack is anticipating it and knowing where it will land.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

I don't think that's true (and I'm also not the one who requested 6 attributes, as I stated in my attribute questionnaire thread ~ 9 months ago).

 

Some of the issues with the attribute system are created by not weighing defenses against the other combat stats. There are enough combat stats in the game that you could apply over six attributes and create interesting choices for all classes in the game, with or without them. 

I don't think there's such a thing as permanently balanced attributes, but I think the design goals are achievable within most of the restraints that Josh Sawyer has outlined so that every class has a reason to invest in each attribute.

[Karkarov]

I don't think that's true (and I'm also not the one who requested 6 attributes, as I stated in my attribute questionnaire thread ~ 9 months ago).

 

Some of the issues with the attribute system are created by not weighing defenses against the other combat stats. There are enough combat stats in the game that you could apply over six attributes and create interesting choices for all classes in the game, with or without them. 

I don't think there's such a thing as permanently balanced attributes, but I think the design goals are achievable within most of the restraints that Josh Sawyer has outlined so that every class has a reason to invest in each attribute.

There is also another issue and that is character creation is not clear on the far reaching implications.  Yes Perception has a crappy little interrupt chance... but just how often is perception applicable in coversations?  How much of an effect does it have in game on spotting secret doors or hidden items?  Does it give bonuses to certain skills?  We don't know for sure, because Perception has a poor combat implementation we dump it even though out of combat it could be one of if not the most important stat.

[Answermancer]

As far as giving a stat just Deflection as its bonus, I don't think defenses are interesting enough to make a stat worth investing in heavily if that's all that stat does.

 

I mean in a D&D-like system would you give a character who otherwise didn't need it a ton of Wisdom and then feel satisfied that your character has "a badass Will save?" I wouldn't. I think few people would max Dexterity just for the Deflection/AC benefit, they'd put a few points into it for sure, but never really focus on it except for classes that get combat use out of it (Rogues and Rangers and the like in D&D).

 

I think 4e dealt with defenses best by just tying each defense (including AC) to the higher of 2 stats so each class would passively have 1-2 good ones.