The state of Feminism, the good the bad

[JadedWolf]

In general, talking down people is always bad. Even someone who really is faster than a female track athlete putting down women for not being as fast as him is pathetic. Let's get that out of the way first.

 

But simply stating that men have a genetic advantage when it comes to sports compared to women is not sexist or mean. It's just stating a very basic, obvious fact. It's not demeaning to women, and any attempt at making it sound like that comes across as a little sad, to be honest.

[Malcador]

What's the slur they use for that , "biotruths" ? Hehe. 

 

I stated my opinion that people who talk down female athletes as being inferior to male ones while being physically less capable than them are ****ing ridiculous.

Why is this ridiculous ? The relative fitness of, for example, myself has no bearing at all when discussing the relative fitness of a male and female athlete. Well, other than it just being an avenue for a cheap ad hominem from someone.

 

I can't play football as well as Alex Morgan for example, but I can easily say she's not as good a footballer as Schweinsteiger.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

But simply stating that men have a genetic advantage when it comes to sports compared to women is not sexist or mean. It's just stating a very basic, obvious fact. It's not demeaning to women, and any attempt at making it sound like that comes across as a little sad, to be honest.

 

Of course it's not, but if you read back, the whole debate sprung from someone taking an archeologist's statement that he found very little differences between male and female musculosceletal structures extrapolated from remains found Viking age tombs as "denial of biological facts".

 

Treating "women are weaker than men" as a biological fact is blatantly wrong; "women are, in our current society, on average, weaker than men" is technically correct, but misleading (training is a bigger factor than gender in determining physical fitness, and there's a way stronger incentive for men to work out with the specific purpose of increasing strength as opposed to doing exercises that don't build muscle tissue as efficiently but burn calories really well, making them more optimal for working out with the goal to conform to societal ideal of female beauty). "Given access to the same resources and training, a male athlete will best a female one in most physical contests, most of the time" rings true, however.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Typical "political correctness" speech:

 

"women are weaker than men" - bad

"Given access to the same resources and training, a male athlete will best a female one in most physical contests, most of the time" - good

 

 

I don't see how being exact and measured in one's speech could ever be seen as something to avoid. Mathematicians do it all the time, too

[Fighter]

 

There should be no seperate woman and men sports leagues/competitions. They should face each other and let the absolute best athelte win no matter the genre..

 

Volo that's a silly suggestion and you know it is

 

 

But everyone is equal and all differences are social. What's the problem?

[NWN_babaYaga]

In the future the priestess of the cathedral will have bal*s on her chin and a bouncing dic* on her forehead as a symbolic meaning of their equality. Males will have a vagina instead of a mouth so everything we say is poltically correct lol! 

 

filtered by vagina-ism!

 

Then we all get mouth-raped by the coneheads...

Edited September 2, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Typical "political correctness" speech:

 

"women are weaker than men" - bad

"Given access to the same resources and training, a male athlete will best a female one in most physical contests, most of the time" - good

 

 

I don't see how being exact and measured in one's speech could ever be seen as something to avoid. Mathematicians do it all the time, too

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSp8IyaKCs0

 

 

You're demonstrating a callous disregard for facts, you know?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

So how is that possible? We all know that men are bigger, stronger, faster etc. etc. than women, don't we? No, we don't. Not in Northern Europe at any rate, The further back we go, the harder it is to see the difference in build between men and women. They are about the same height and the same build. Only when we find the pelvis bone, can we easily determine the gender.

 

You had me until this. The time between then and now is pitifully small in evolutionary terms for the kind of changes you speak of.  Men are bigger, stronger, faster etc, etc.

 

Facts are against you. It has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with equal (ly lack of) food and equally hard work.

 

 

Post the links already. It doesn't matter if they are in danish or not. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that.

 

[Blarghagh]

 

"Opinions on feminism are pretty much like nipples in that everyone has them but you only ever get to see men's."

 

Saw that on Twitter and was reminded of this debate.

So it shouldn't be discussed here at all then ?

 

I'm really, really trying to see how you would get that from my post but it's just not there at all. At most, the thing I'm lamenting is that this place is a sausage fest and that not nearly enough women actually weigh in and make their opinions known on these types of matters (here or in general).

[Malcador]

I'm really, really trying to see how you would get that from my post but it's just not there at all. At most, the thing I'm lamenting is that this place is a sausage fest and that not nearly enough women actually weigh in and make their opinions known on these types of matters (here or in general).

Sure, you're lamenting men only talking about it now but you can't see that in your post ? Seemed pretty clear what your snarky joke was getting at.

[HoonDing]

Since when have there been girls on the Internet?

[Blarghagh]

 

I'm really, really trying to see how you would get that from my post but it's just not there at all. At most, the thing I'm lamenting is that this place is a sausage fest and that not nearly enough women actually weigh in and make their opinions known on these types of matters (here or in general).

Sure, you're lamenting men only talking about it now but you can't see that in your post ? Seemed pretty clear what your snarky joke was getting at.

 

 

Even that's misrepresenting what I said. Not having a female perspective is problematic but pointing that out does not mean I'm saying other perspectives are pointless by default. You think this discussion won't benefit from a female perspective? Project what you want, that's not what I said, meant or implied anywhere.

[Malcador]

Not really projecting much, seemed pretty clear what with you posting a backhanded comment in the thread and it really is the kind of thing you'd post based on past history. It'd benefit the discussion probably to have more women, but unless you're planning to go out and press gang some in here, we're stuck with what we have.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

Not really projecting much, seemed pretty clear what with you posting a backhanded comment in the thread and it really is the kind of thing you'd post based on past history. It'd benefit the discussion probably to have more women, but unless you're planning to go out and press gang some in here, we're stuck with what we have.

 

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

 

But I agree with TN, he is not saying our opinions don't matter. But a female perspective would give a different and important context. Its a perfectly  reasonable comment

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Not really projecting much, seemed pretty clear what with you posting a backhanded comment in the thread and it really is the kind of thing you'd post based on past history. It'd benefit the discussion probably to have more women, but unless you're planning to go out and press gang some in here, we're stuck with what we have.

 

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

 

Bruce, you're being unkind. There are a few productive female forum members around here. Have you thought they might just not be interested in gender politics?

[Malcador]

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

 

But I agree with TN, he is not saying our opinions don't matter. But a female perspective would give a different and important context. Its a perfectly  reasonable comment

There's a surprise.

 

Who's been chased off and by whom ? Probably too much to expect more detail on that charge from you, but that'd be rather impressive to see someone 'chased' off a forum. And dramatic flouncing off like some PE people did way back, doesn't count.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Not really projecting much, seemed pretty clear what with you posting a backhanded comment in the thread and it really is the kind of thing you'd post based on past history. It'd benefit the discussion probably to have more women, but unless you're planning to go out and press gang some in here, we're stuck with what we have.

 

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

 

Bruce, you're being unkind. There are a few productive female forum members around here. Have you thought they might just not be interested in gender politics?

 

 

You right, I apologize. But for the record do you know any active female members on these forums. I only know Squeaky and she hasn't posted in a while?

 

 

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

 

But I agree with TN, he is not saying our opinions don't matter. But a female perspective would give a different and important context. Its a perfectly  reasonable comment

There's a surprise.

 

Who's been chased off and by whom ? Probably too much to expect more detail on that charge from you, but that'd be rather impressive to see someone 'chased' off a forum. And dramatic flouncing off like some PE people did way back, doesn't count.

 

 

 

I'm  just teasing you, I don't think you had anything to do with the lack of female members on these forums

[Amentep]

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

Did the former female members tell you they were chased off by us?

 

 

But I agree with TN, he is not saying our opinions don't matter. But a female perspective would give a different and important context. Its a perfectly  reasonable comment

You started this thread, but expected us to not comment?

[BruceVC]

 

You guys have chased most of the female members away from the forum Malc. So you are right, the chance of us getting a female perspective is unlikely

Did the former female members tell you they were chased off by us?

 

 

But I agree with TN, he is not saying our opinions don't matter. But a female perspective would give a different and important context. Its a perfectly  reasonable comment

You started this thread, but expected us to not comment?

 

 

Wow people are really defensive today, when did I say anything remotely like " I don't want people to comment "? All I said it would be great to get a female perspective

[HoonDing]

Our only female left is oby I believe.

[BruceVC]

Our only female left is oby I believe.

 

I thought Oby was a guy, but that's my point. Do we even have one active female member ?

[Malcador]

You started this thread, but expected us to not comment?

Nah, we can, but apparently it's not all that important.

[BruceVC]

 

You started this thread, but expected us to not comment?

Nah, we can, but apparently it's not all that important.

 

 

 

Good one, but you know that's not what I meant

[Amentep]

Wow people are really defensive today, when did I say anything remotely like " I don't want people to comment "? All I said it would be great to get a female perspective

 

Not defensive, I dislike the intellectual argument path that this seems to be following.

 

If we're all molded into gender-bias by the patriarchy, then a woman's view has the potential to be just as influenced by patriarchal thinking as a mans; the only value in their view would be if they recognized their own capacity for gender bias.  But asking for more women in the thread is not arguing for more self-aware posts by those who recognize the influence their society has towards gender norms and expectations and instead is valuing an opinion simply because it comes from a preferred gender which seems to fly in the face of equality in representation.

 

If we're not accepting the patriarchy induced gender bias, and we accept it is okay for some things to be gender biased, then we're still arguing for a random grab-bag of anecdotal evidence rather than trying to get a gauge of gender groups as a whole.

 

 

Our only female left is oby I believe.

I thought Oby was a guy, but that's my point. Do we even have one active female member ?

 

How can you be sure any poster is actually male or female over the internet?

 

But side-stepping that concern, I believe there are several posters who've identified themselves as women still posting on other areas of the forums.

[BruceVC]

 

Wow people are really defensive today, when did I say anything remotely like " I don't want people to comment "? All I said it would be great to get a female perspective

 

Not defensive, I dislike the intellectual argument path that this seems to be following.

 

If we're all molded into gender-bias by the patriarchy, then a woman's view has the potential to be just as influenced by patriarchal thinking as a mans; the only value in their view would be if they recognized their own capacity for gender bias.  But asking for more women in the thread is not arguing for more self-aware posts by those who recognize the influence their society has towards gender norms and expectations and instead is valuing an opinion simply because it comes from a preferred gender which seems to fly in the face of equality in representation.

 

If we're not accepting the patriarchy induced gender bias, and we accept it is okay for some things to be gender biased, then we're still arguing for a random grab-bag of anecdotal evidence rather than trying to get a gauge of gender groups as a whole.

 

 

 

Are you saying that in a topic about feminism that getting a women's perspective would not be pertinent?

 

Do you think we would get the same  input and personal views around this topic if it was just men discussing it as opposed to men and women giving there opinions?