Are liberal democracies finished?

[Wrath of Dagon]

EU and NATO member renounces democracy : http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/07/the-mask-is-off/

 

Edit: Also

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html Edited August 11, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[Orogun01]

They'll still be there in name.

[BruceVC]

EU and NATO member renounces democracy : http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/07/the-mask-is-off/

 

Edit: Also

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

 

 

Absolutely not, liberal democracies offer there citizens the best quality of life and based on various indexes have the happiest citizens. They are not going anywhere and will continue to be the best way that less developed countries can transform there economies

 

That link about the Hungarian president rejecting democracy just shows how little he knows, if its even true. He says the main reason for doing this is because of the 2008 financial crisis. This had  nothing to do with liberal Democracies but was a more a failure of regulation of financial systems.

 

That quote you posted also isn't applicable, for example lets say a real issue with liberal democracies was an example where people voted for a political party that said "no to tax". If the constitution of the country didn't protect the country from this type of dangerous economic step then the economy of the country would collapse. We have seen this throughout Africa where after colonialism new governments came to power and implemented there own version of economic reforms which were tantamount to economic collapse

[obyknven]

 

Absolutely not, liberal democracies offer there citizens the best quality of life and based on various indexes have the happiest citizens. They are not going anywhere and will continue to be the best way that less developed countries can transform there economies

 

 

Wut? Dyou really belive in such nonsence? Even western media laugh about your democratic fairy world.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/15/africa-democary-poverty-relief

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/democracy.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_S._Reinert

photo of democratic EU member capital city for illustration. This is center lol.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

EU and NATO member renounces democracy : http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/07/the-mask-is-off/

 

 

This proves nothing aside from the fact that Orbán is an insane asswipe. Which was already widely known by everyone living in Hungary, thank you very much.

[Walsingham]

Liberal democracies can only last 200 years, eh? What's the stable half life of dictatorships, then?

[Gorth]

We have seen this throughout Africa where after colonialism new governments came to power and implemented there own version of economic reforms which were tantamount to economic collapse

Quo Est Demonstrandum (sp?), colonialist rule is better than democracy

 

Semi serious, semi joking. I admire your optimism Bruce, but I don't always share it. My money is on Entropy who always win out in the end.

[Walsingham]

 

Quo Est Demonstrandum (sp?), colonialist rule is better than democracy

 

Semi serious, semi joking. I admire your optimism Bruce, but I don't always share it. My money is on Entropy who always win out in the end.

 

 

Quod erat demonstrandum, I think.

[Zoraptor]

Yeah. Or just use the abbreviation, QED. Marvellous way to make yourself look smart. Or alternatively, a pretentious git. Basically just means "it's been proved" anyway, with a veneer of the science about it.

 

When it comes to liberal democracy I can only quote Mohandas Ghandi on western civilisation: 'it would be a very good idea'.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

 

EU and NATO member renounces democracy : http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/07/the-mask-is-off/

 

 

This proves nothing aside from the fact that Orbán is an insane asswipe. Which was already widely known by everyone living in Hungary, thank you very much.

 

 

Glad you commented on this, I find it hard to believe that the majority of Hungarian think Putin offers the way to economic salvation

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

This proves nothing aside from the fact that Orbán is an insane asswipe. Which was already widely known by everyone living in Hungary, thank you very much.

 

 

Glad you commented on this, I find it hard to believe that the majority of Hungarian think Putin offers the way to economic salvation

 

 

Most of the people I've spoken to about the matter think that getting closer to Russia is a spectacularly bad idea (yeah, right, it worked out so well last time). Then again, I tend to avoid discussing politics with people who are big fans of the Orbán administration, so there's admittedly a selection bias at play there.

[Rosbjerg]

Hmm, I think there's defintly merit to the idea - if a democracy develops too quickly. If the general population is generally extremely educated, they will often create and contribute out of desire to self-realize I believe.

 

But ultimately it's also mammal behaviour. Most of us will try to achieve our goals with the least amount of effort.

[Walsingham]

There is a more serious point that democracy is more than just voting booths. Our democratic institutions arose after the demand. Many 20th and 21st century democracies have the mechanisms before the demand.

 

In all seriousness I do also agree that for many people actually in Western democracies there is a lack of engagement. It's popular to blame politicians, but I often think it's down to the competitive demand from everyday life being complex, and the understanding of most issues being very poor.

 

In other words you wouldn't be happy if your employees were facebooking and watching movies when they were working. But it's how we do everything else.

[BruceVC]

 

We have seen this throughout Africa where after colonialism new governments came to power and implemented there own version of economic reforms which were tantamount to economic collapse

Quo Est Demonstrandum (sp?), colonialist rule is better than democracy

 

Semi serious, semi joking. I admire your optimism Bruce, but I don't always share it. My money is on Entropy who always win out in the end.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not suggestion that Colonialism was better in any than the new governments in Africa that followed, you can't really make that comparison because the governmental systems  are so different.

 

But I am reading a really informative book at the moment called the State of Africa by Martin Meredith which clearly articulates how many of the new governments in Africa in the 1960's basically rejected the institutions of Democracy and the principles of economics and tried to follow there own, basically dictatorial processes, methods to sustain and grow there own economies. And this lead to an utter collapse of there countries on all levels that included political, social and financial

 

So just to reiterate, liberal democracies do work and are able to transform and uplift a country positively

[JadedWolf]

My money is on Entropy who always win out in the end.

 

 

Coaxmetal approves.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Quo Est Demonstrandum (sp?), colonialist rule is better than democracy

 

Semi serious, semi joking. I admire your optimism Bruce, but I don't always share it. My money is on Entropy who always win out in the end.

 

 

Quod erat demonstrandum, I think.

 

Res Ipsa Loquitur is actually the best way to express this

Edited August 11, 2014 by Guard Dog

[HoonDing]

Define liberal.

[Kroney]

Well, basically the problem is that the Empire fell over. Since that happened, the whole world's gone to hell. You lot (meaning Johnny Foreigner in general) have proven yourselves incapable of self-rule and seem to need us to do it for you.

[JadedWolf]

Well, basically the problem is that the Empire fell over. Since that happened, the whole world's gone to hell. You lot (meaning Johnny Foreigner in general) have proven yourselves incapable of self-rule and seem to need us to do it for you.

 

You are absolutely right. Things just all went to hell when the Roman Empire fell over.

 

-Sigh-

[HoonDing]

In the Dune universe, the Roman Empire never fell.

[obyknven]

 

Well, basically the problem is that the Empire fell over. Since that happened, the whole world's gone to hell. You lot (meaning Johnny Foreigner in general) have proven yourselves incapable of self-rule and seem to need us to do it for you.

 

You are absolutely right. Things just all went to hell when the Roman Empire fell over.

 

-Sigh-

 

Roman empire is terrible abomination, their end is absolutely natural for such thing. All went to hell when last and most terrible spawn of the Roman Empire take power. The Chruch, they destroy ancient civilization. And today same thing - Europe fell over not because of external enemy, but because of modern Europe is nonviable rotten adomination.

[Walsingham]

Careful there, oby. Going a bit off-message. Papa Putin loves the Church.

[Rostere]

We've had this discussion before. I've tried to explain how democracy is a more stable form of government than dictatorship. I've still not seen anything to prove me wrong...

 

I'll just laugh when I hear you guys mention entropy... You know, if an arrow of time can be observed in historical forms of governance, it's in favour of democracy.

[BruceVC]

We've had this discussion before. I've tried to explain how democracy is a more stable form of government than dictatorship. I've still not seen anything to prove me wrong...

 

I'll just laugh when I hear you guys mention entropy... You know, if an arrow of time can be observed in historical forms of governance, it's in favour of democracy.

 

No offense Ros but you don't get points for stating the obvious, especially when it comes from someone of your insight and intelligence. This is what I would expect you to say

 

 

Obviously a Democracy is a better and more stable form of government in the long term than a dictatorship. This point is enforced by the fact we live in a global world and all countries need political stability and to create economic environments that encourage investment, risk is something that makes investors uncomfortable. I would say historically dictatorships may have made sense but not anymore

[Guard Dog]

In the modern world the failure of democracy leads not to a dictatorship per se rather an oligarchy where all power is concentrated into the hands of a single group. The difference would be little more than semantics except that an oligarchy at least would maintain the appearance of a free republic. Plato stated "Tyranny naturally arises out of democracy and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty." 

 

It's happening right here in the US. We are seeing more and more heavy handed and aggressive law enforcement actions against increasingly trivial offenses. The government is using the IRS as a perverse form of "Thought Police". The DHS has identified ex-military vets who don't vote democrat are likely terrorists and have asked law enforcement to keep a closer watch on them. The US Constitution is being ignored on a regular basis and the perpetrators keep getting re-elected. It has already begun and the saddest part of all is that it is being done right in front of the voters... and they don't seem to care.

 

I'm reminded of a quote by Lincoln: "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

 

I can't help but notice we are becoming less free everyday.