The Official Romance Thread

[Endrosz]

Don't confuse the posters in this thread with Obsidian.

 

Their decision was based on available resources (time/money) and their high standards for writing anything, not excluding romances. Sawyer stated several times that he has nothing against romances, but they are a cost-heavy feature that was dropped from this release.

 

I reckon that PoE 2 or 3 will feature romances, which will flip out a lot of people here. Again, they don't represent Obsidian.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Endrosz

[Blarghagh]

If I recall correctly, the most negative thing an Obsidian employee has ever said regarding romances is that Chris Avellone dislikes writing them.

[Nonek]

My personal favourite parts of character building and in depth interactions have never been part of a romance arc, learning the force and her own peculiar philosophy with Kreia, remembering my defiance  of the self righteous Jedi Council when they would let millions suffer, speaking with the ancient spectre of Nolaloth the Dragon, swapping witticisms with Gannayev of Dreams, listening to the sad tale of the Wood Man in far away Rasheman, hearing a dead Myrkul whisper his poison from beyond the grave, on edge and vulnerable as Conrad Marburg sits at your table and begins his inquisition, silencing Mina, turning the tables on Henry Leland, speaking with the Radiant Child amongst the scattered remains of the Tenth Legion etcetera.

 

Farther back as Black Isle I was most impressed by the nature of regret learned from Deionarra's sensory stone, the subtle lessons that kind Mebbeth taught, my time sat with Daakon learning of Zerthimon, the journal of myselves that was scrawled on the walls of my living tomb, the whole living atmosphere of Kuldahar and Icewind Dale brought to life by Mr Soule's theme etcetera.

 

Next to these i'm afraid that sweet nothings are just that, and i'd prefer the far more in-depth and worthwhile forms of interaction that flesh out the world and characters rather than forcing my attentions on some poor npc. Just my personal opinion as usual however.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Nonek

[Mannock]

Don't confuse the posters in this thread with Obsidian.

 

Their decision was based on available resources (time/money) and their high standards for writing anything, not excluding romances. Sawyer stated several times that he has nothing against romances, but they are a cost-heavy feature that was dropped from this release.

 

I reckon that PoE 2 or 3 will feature romances, which will flip out a lot of people here. Again, they don't represent Obsidian.

 

Josh also stated in an interview that he personally isn't fond of romances in games and MCA has stated that he doesn't like romances in games either. With two prolific writers being not that into romances, I'd actually be surprised if there were any romances in possible upcoming sequels.

 

Even though I'd like to see romances in a game like this, I actually agree with Josh's reasoning for not including romances in PoE. They wouldn't have the resources available to do it properly.

[Stun]

I'm going to say that it's stupid to throw out romances just because there's been a hurricane of games with poorly written romances that look like they've been put in out of a sense of obligation. Games are full of poorly written women, does this mean the correct choice is to not put women in your well written games?

That's not a great analogy, since accurate, non-cringeworthy portrayals of gender roles can be done in a game without any writing at all. The same cannot be said for Romances.

 

But to address the point: there's far more at play here than simply the track-records of past games. Josh Sawyer has already addressed the resource problem. And there are about 10 other fundamental issues that are just as valid.

 

 

Romance and courtship are parts of living. A well written one is a wonderful tool for luring the player into accepting the story as real to them by giving the characters feelings and putting them in situations that the player can empathize and identify with. This is not wish fufillment - it's quite the opposite. It's making characters (and by extension, the whole setting) real by making them do things that really happen in real life. Ditching them on principle is not an act of maturity.

You mean, like, like Dwarves romancing Elves? Or, like, exchanging emotion-filled embraces with that attractive Monk? Or Engaging in playful flirtations with your party's Sorcerer while exploring ancient haunted crypts filled with deadly traps and flesh-rotting Ghasts who want to feast on your bones?

 

Romances don't *fit* in games like these. They are thematically at odds. THAT is why people are ditching them on principle.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Stun

[Mannock]

 

Romances don't *fit* in games like this. They are Thematically at odds. THAT is why people are ditching them on principle.

 

 

It's funny because you say it like it's an objective fact. At any rate, we who enjoy romances in games don't see it as a problem and you do. We won't get any farther than that I'm afraid.

[Arouet]

 

That's not a great analogy, since accurate, non-cringeworthy portrayals of gender roles can be done in a game without any writing at all. The same cannot be said for Romances.

 

But to address the point: there's far more at play here than simply the track-records of past games. Josh Sawyer has already addressed the resource problem. And there are about 10 other fundamental issues that are just as valid.

 

 

Romance and courtship are parts of living. A well written one is a wonderful tool for luring the player into accepting the story as real to them by giving the characters feelings and putting them in situations that the player can empathize and identify with. This is not wish fufillment - it's quite the opposite. It's making characters (and by extension, the whole setting) real by making them do things that really happen in real life. Ditching them on principle is not an act of maturity.

You mean, like, like Dwarves romancing Elves? Or, like, exchanging emotion-filled embraces with that attractive Monk? Or Engaging in playful flirtations with your party's Sorcerer while exploring ancient haunted crypts filled with deadly traps and flesh-rotting Ghasts who want to feast on your bones?

 

Romances don't *fit* in games like these. They are thematically at odds. THAT is why people are ditching them on principle.

 

I do not think there is anything about this setting that "thematically" demands celibacy, particularly if the developers have expressed their intent to "delve into a more mature subject matter."

 

If they just don't have the time to extensively write romances, fine. That's a good reason. But as for the general distate for writing romances, c'mon. CA admitted that he's fueled by what he hates about a genre or a setting to play around with it. This is a perfect target for him.

[Stun]

I would say that, Objectively, Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure.

 

Prove otherwise.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Stun

[Mannock]

I would say that, Objectively, Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure.

 

Prove otherwise.

 

Huh? Prove?

 

It's a matter of personal preferences. It won't matter what arguments I bring up, I'm quite sure you won't change your mind.

 

And another thing; your statements are subjective. So are mine. And it's okay.

[Stun]

 

I would say that, Objectively, Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure.

 

Prove otherwise.

 

Huh? Prove?

 

It's a matter of personal preferences.

 

What is?

[Mannock]

 

 

I would say that, Objectively, Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure.

 

Prove otherwise.

 

Huh? Prove?

 

It's a matter of personal preferences.

 

What is?

 

 

Read your own quote. That romance is "thematically at odds..." etc etc. It's your personal point of view and not an objective statement. It's impossible to "prove" anything.

[Stun]

Read your own quote. That romance is "thematically at odds..." etc etc. It's your personal point of view and not an objective statement. It's impossible to "prove" anything.

Oh! Ok. For a minute there I thought you were claiming that it was my personal preference (which kinda confused me a bit since I did not state my personal preference. I was simply pointing out that Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of, say, gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure....and challenging you to show me how it isn't) Edited August 3, 2014 by Stun

[Mannock]

 

Read your own quote. That romance is "thematically at odds..." etc etc. It's your personal point of view and not an objective statement. It's impossible to "prove" anything.

Oh! Ok. For a minute there I thought you were claiming that it was my personal preference (which kinda confused me a bit since I did not state my personal preference. I was simply pointing out that Love, intimacy, and other emotions commonly associated with Romance are, in fact, thematically at odds with the notion of, say, gathering a party of trained killers and delving into an ancient crypt filled with undead in search of treasure....and challenging you to show me how it isn't)

 

 

1. PoE is more than just dungeon crawling, so your example isn't exactly valid in this case.

 

2. You know what? Trained killers do fall in love with eachother. Shocking isn't it?

[Stun]

1. PoE is more than just dungeon crawling, so your example isn't exactly valid in this case.

Well, PoE is not part of this discussion anyway, since even if it WAS a pure dungeon crawler, it's still a Kickstarted game who's developers do not have the resources to make into a Dungeon Crawler-Soap Opera hybrid.

 

2. You know what? Trained killers do fall in love with eachother. Shocking isn't it?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies. Edited August 3, 2014 by Stun

[redneckdevil]

Mmmm by chance can anyone show me an invame romance that was done well that we wasnt pigeoned holed into having to do things a certain way to gain said romance? (Of course without cheating by spamming gift options or what not) because so far all the ganes ive played, i had to roleplay a one certain way (aka saying/doing the things THEY though was acceptable which ended up being 1 certain way of thought/actions/philosphys/etc) instead of roleplaying ANY way to gain said romance.

Romances ive seen so far have actually been very "linear quests path" that didnt broke much flexiblity in roleplaying.

You had to say things that they agreed with, do things they agreed with, etc etc. I havent found one yet that i could roleplay someone with an opposing view point and actions than their view points and actions without getting rejected.

Tbh ive not seen these "awesome different ways to roleplay" and instead ive seen restricting and limiting roleplay options. Yes romances can add to the story, but where has one been that gave u actual freedom in roleplaying anything and winning the girl/boy?

[Aethryl]

Mmmm by chance can anyone show me an invame romance that was done well that we wasnt pigeoned holed into having to do things a certain way to gain said romance? (Of course without cheating by spamming gift options or what not) because so far all the ganes ive played, i had to roleplay a one certain way (aka saying/doing the things THEY though was acceptable which ended up being 1 certain way of thought/actions/philosphys/etc) instead of roleplaying ANY way to gain said romance.

Romances ive seen so far have actually been very "linear quests path" that didnt broke much flexiblity in roleplaying.

You had to say things that they agreed with, do things they agreed with, etc etc. I havent found one yet that i could roleplay someone with an opposing view point and actions than their view points and actions without getting rejected.

Tbh ive not seen these "awesome different ways to roleplay" and instead ive seen restricting and limiting roleplay options. Yes romances can add to the story, but where has one been that gave u actual freedom in roleplaying anything and winning the girl/boy?

I thought a few of the BG 2 romance mods were rather amusing. If I remember correctly in the Resurrection Gone Wronger module for NWN you could actually end up in a perminant relationship with one of the NPCs... which resulted in a game over as your character then lost any motivation for continuing the quest.

 

I do admit to difficulty remembering a game I played unmodded which had any romances beyond the say 'x' or give 'x' to person and ding, romance!

Edited August 3, 2014 by Aethryl

[BruceVC]

 

2. You know what? Trained killers do fall in love with eachother. Shocking isn't it?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies.

 

 

You see the this is where the argument " people on an adventure to save the world wouldn't think about Romance" is utterly false and ridiculous

 

This is EXACTLY where Romance would flourish, you can try position other anti-Romance perspectives but not this one

 

 

If a group of people are on some epic quest to defeat some diabolical demi-god, and they know everyday could be there last, they spend time around a campfire and they are prepared to die for each other and they are attracted to each other  why wouldn't Romance happen? Romance could be a expression of many different types of  emotional states

 

There are numerous cases that people can give where Romance has happened where people face death. I had a teacher at school who didn't know his father as his mother fell pregnant  in the dark during the Blitzkrieg in London during WW2 while they hiding in bomb shelter

[Sylvanpyxie]

You had to say things that they agreed with, do things they agreed with, etc etc. I havent found one yet that i could roleplay someone with an opposing view point and actions without getting rejected.

Don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to shake things up a bit because the current format of romances doesn't really work. But... NPCs are supposed to be their own person. Is it really such a problem that they might not like you?

Edited August 3, 2014 by Sylvanpyxie

[Stun]

You see the this is where the argument " people on an adventure to save the world wouldn't think about Romance" is utterly false and ridiculous

It's a good thing, then, that I have never argued such a thing.

 

And while I agree that haunted crypts filled with ghouls, vampires, the stench of death and the ritualistic chants of Necromancers are just the perfect settings for a romantic story, I still think that you are ignoring the narrative importance of atmosphere and mood in a good RPG.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

In the case of Jade Empire; the Sky romance fit the mood pretty well. After you defeated Death's Hand; you get to kiss Sky all dramatic like. It really made that moment of triumph feel even more epic. It was perfect timing; a dramatic kiss in a dramatic moment.

 

If Bioware had managed to keep that level of quality in its future romances; romances would have a much better reputation.

[Namutree]

 

You had to say things that they agreed with, do things they agreed with, etc etc. I havent found one yet that i could roleplay someone with an opposing view point and actions without getting rejected.

Don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to shake things up a bit because the current format of romances doesn't really work. But... NPCs are supposed to be their own person. Is it really such a problem that they might not like you?

 

That would be funny if in poe2 they let you start what seems like a romance, but then the npc just says he/she just doesn't like you. It's wouldn't be a good idea, but it would make me laugh.

 

I'd call it a Trollmance! 

[Blarghagh]

I'd say what's missing from a lot of game romances is tension. There is never any will-they won't-they or sexual tension between characters at all. It's generally either tensionless lovey-dovey or more sex than you can shake your stick at and it is designed so players can make it happen via simple choice of dialogue (I'm going to pick the nice conversation option because that'll get me laid). If someone could figure out a way to generate some proper tension in a game romance I'm sure they would be much better.

[ashtonw]

Ah yeah, Carth from KOTOR had that. I know he gets a lot of flack but his romance was really good, in my opinion.

[BruceVC]

In the case of Jade Empire; the Sky romance fit the mood pretty well. After you defeated Death's Hand; you get to kiss Sky all dramatic like. It really made that moment of triumph feel even more epic. It was perfect timing; a dramatic kiss in a dramatic moment.

 

If Bioware had managed to keep that level of quality in its future romances; romances would have a much better reputation.

 

You have convinced me, Jade Empire is the next game I'll be playing once I'm done with Far Cry 2

[BruceVC]

 

You see the this is where the argument " people on an adventure to save the world wouldn't think about Romance" is utterly false and ridiculous

It's a good thing, then, that I have never argued such a thing.

 

And while I agree that haunted crypts filled with ghouls, vampires, the stench of death and the ritualistic chants of Necromancers are just the perfect settings for a romantic story, I still think that you are ignoring the narrative importance of atmosphere and mood in a good RPG.

 

 

No one is suggesting that Romance should happen in the middle of ghoul infested catacomb

 

But think about facing adversity like that and then leaving the dungeon and the party rests, as the sun sets the party members reflect on the horrors they have just faced and fact they survive another day. Just the fact they are alive would make them more appreciative of there fellow party members. Add to this the reality that the attractive cleric, Viconia for example, also saved your life through healing magic..the personal and emotional connected should be obvious. Why wouldn't you pursue a Romance interest. Yes that would be very reasonable ?