The morality of Animancy

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir, I understand your point based on the single term "secret police" you are convinced that they will be a tool of political repression outside of the usual for that time period, inline with inquisition and what not..

 

 

we don't know exactly how the "secret police" will be used in poe. we do know what "secret police" means. we expect that obsidian knows. change one word is pretty freaking dishonest though. state police? dream police? secret santa? use secret service instead is just... wrong.  

 

am not knowing why you is so torqued about time period. you initially used modern tv as a parallel for whatever reason. secret police Is a modern term... didn't gain use until 1920s. find direct medieval analogues is gonna result in debate, but "secret police" got some common qualities and typical the inquisition gets added... 'cause the inquisition were a bunch o' scary dudes that worked w/o transparency and in secret and used scare tactics and were oppressive. 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secret%20police

 

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/secr.html

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/secret-police

 

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/society/secret-police-the-evolution-secret-police-forces.html

 

as we mentioned at the start, Gromnir is American, and we got a seeming natural repulsion to the term. there is some cultures that has seen secret police as a necessary evil... or at least necessary. nevertheless, is not gonna change fact that even where secret police has been better accepted, they has still been feared.

 

serious, look up the definition if you don't know... 'cause you seeming don't. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we ignored your wiki entry, 'cause it is wikipedia. sorry, but wikipedia has 0 scholarly integrity and false entries and info can be added by anybody with the will to do so. nevertheless, since you brought up and seeming didn't read anything but the first line...

 

 

"Instead of transparently enforcing the rule of law and being subject to public scrutiny as ordinary police agencies do, secret police organizations are specifically intended to operate beyond and above the law in order to suppress political dissent through clandestine acts of terror and intimidation (such as kidnapping, coercive interrogation, torture, internal exile, forced disappearance, and assassination) targeted against political enemies of the ruling authority."

 

...

 

"Secret police not only have the traditional police authority to arrest and detain, but in some cases they are given unsupervised control of the length of detention, assigned to implement punishments independent of the public judiciary, and allowed to administer those punishments without external review. The tactics of investigation and intimidation used by secret police enable them to accrue so much power that they usually operate with little or no practical restraint."

 

...

 

"Secret-police organizations employ internal spies and civilian informants to find protest leaders or dissidents, and they may also employ agents provocateurs to incite political opponents to perform illegal acts against the government, whereupon such opponents may be arrested. Secret police may open mail, tap telephone lines, use various techniques to trick, blackmail, or coerce relatives or friends of a suspect into providing information.

 

"Secret police are notorious for raiding homes between midnight and dawn, to apprehend people suspected of dissent.[3]"

 

seeing as how you linked it...

Edited May 30, 2014 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

ps we will note one difference that makes poe secret police potential less disturbing than real world examples. is not freaking time period, but it is fact that poe has real magic, and undead, and lord only knows what kinda threats.  am genuine not knowing what sorta scary stuff exists to threaten people and governments in poe, but with monsters and magic, an organization that can act w/o need to observe the niceties o' due process or even human rights might be necessary... depending 'pon how grim-dark poe is. even so, the secret police in such a setting is still gonna be pants-p00ping scary, but they may be arguable more necessary than they is in a world where the threats is bolsheviks, jews and imaginary witches.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

Just because an investigator is secret does not mean they are corrupt and/or gestapo-ish.

 

If a criminal doesn't know who's an investigator, they don't know who they should be wary of. That's kind of the premise of any-and-all undercover operatives.

 

Obsidian's use of "secret police" begs questions, not conclusions.

pretty much that simple. Also looking back at that update I noticed the caption for the Cipher detective concept - "attempts to perceive a 'housed' soul within a piece of evidence" (showing sword). It would mean that "housed" souls can be manifested in mundane objects like swords, and if the detective think its can help him in some way they must be able to perceive (or communicate?) with world around them. (which might lend into the living adra theory I had) Those skill can be very useful, me think. Some thing like the sniffer in the wheel of time? Edited May 31, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

Just because an investigator is secret does not mean they are corrupt and/or gestapo-ish.

 

If a criminal doesn't know who's an investigator, they don't know who they should be wary of. That's kind of the premise of any-and-all undercover operatives.

 

Obsidian's use of "secret police" begs questions, not conclusions.

 actually, if the investigator is part of secret police, it pretty much does mean they is gestapo-ish. keep in mind that not all gestapo were corrupt, but their goals were suspect and their means were beyond the pale. secret police is not simply police who don't announce their police power. serious, read the definitions and links above. secret police is gestapo-ish... by definition. 

 

as we note above, it is possible in a particular grim-dark setting, secret police is gonna be deemed necessary. warhammer 40k is one example. even so, the secret police in such settings is gonna be possibly more scary, not less.

 

aside:

 

...

 

"Also cops and doctors example was good considering that you brought up the American in you, you guys have a wired love/hate relationship with the pOlice, especially on forum such as these and you can't know with 40+ years old with internet persona"

 

and so we is full circle. whatever nonsense notions you got 'bout Americans and their pov of cops, Secret Police is NOT the cops you see on tv dramas. secret police is not just undercover cops.

 

seriously guys. you two in same thread is killing us.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[Greydragon]

Certainly the binding of souls to their corpses permanently would be an abomination; however if this were done temporarily wouldn't it be little more than mildly disgusting? As for combat, turning an enemy corpse into an undead with their own soul is not really practical; they'll still be mostly rational and probably turn on the animancer. So what if for combat purposes you summon an allied soul into the corpse? An old pet dog's for example?

 

Also I could see this kind of skill gaining pseudo-acceptance if it is used to converse with the dead. Who killed you? Where did you leave the keys or the money... etc. Modern day mediums and psychics are after all popular with the desperate and foolish. How much better would their business be if they could actually do the things they charge money for?

[Mor]

As for combat, turning an enemy corpse into an undead with their own soul is not really practical; they'll still be mostly rational and probably turn on the animancer.

I don't believe that animancers has anything robust enough to be used in the field, but some theorized that it would be possible to sever part of souls e.g. curing mental illness that way, so its possible that they would find a way to sever a soul memories or compel it todo something.

 

btw, a little nitpick, Animancers are researches and inventors, but presumably everyone can use their inventions.

[PrimeJunta]

@Mor, political repression is not a new invention, and secret police -- whether under that name or something else -- isn't new either.

• Frumentarii
• Jinyiwei
• Council of Ten and their State Inquisition

I just went over what we know about Dunryd Row, and it appears to amount to roughly this, both items from update  #65 --

• It was characterized as 'secret police'
• It was also called a 'spy service'
• It is staffed by ciphers
• It is 'respected, if somewhat feared and mistrusted'

The vibe I'm getting is more of a combination of Scotland Yard and Her Majesty's Secret Service than CheKa, frankly. I don't recall mentions of major political dissent or repression in Defiance Bay, and it seems to me that something like the Aedyr Empire or one of the Vailian city-states would be more likely to host a ruthless political police than a 'free palatinate' consisting of a loose confederation of erldoms led by a duc. It seems the Dyrwoodians feud a lot between each other: that seems to provide the most logical job for Dunryd Row.

[Mor]

@Mor, political repression is not a new invention, and secret police -- whether under that name or something else -- isn't new either.

Obviously*. Still there were many similar organizations that operated in secrecy but only few became notrious for their actions in light of the time period they operated e.g. one might argue that the whole feudal structure was about maintaining power, through all kind of repression, which is why I started by asking if we have anything to suggest that Dunryd Row is being on the inquisition corner of this scale..

 

* Although I have never seen the Frumentarii referred as "secret service" per se, certaily not in my old non-English books and I doubt that i would ever stop associate "secret service" with more modern period, at least on subconscious level.

 

The vibe I'm getting is more of a combination of Scotland Yard and Her Majesty's Secret Service than CheKa, frankly. I don't recall mentions of major political dissent or repression in Defiance Bay, and it seems to me that something like the Aedyr Empire or one of the Vailian city-states would be more likely to host a ruthless political police than a 'free palatinate' consisting of a loose confederation of erldoms led by a duc. It seems the Dyrwoodians feud a lot between each other: that seems to provide the most logical job for Dunryd Row.

Exactly what I have been saying! In the setting we have ample of practical reason for the existence of such force, we have nothing to suggest that they are anything but the "Scotland Yard" verity, and the trope of totalitarian\authoritarian regime that went on political\religious repression/purge has been filled already... Edited May 31, 2014 by Mor

[illathid]

See the problem is that would be hugely inaccurate to call Scotland Yard a "Secret Police" force. So if Dunryd Row is basically a PoE version of Scotland Yard, then it is not a "Secret Police" force.

 

Here's an example that could help. Obsidian describes the government of X as an a dictatorship. Poster Y on the forums expresses doubt that such of government would be very nice. Poster Z explain that it would actually be very nice, as the dictator has a set of enumerated and limited powers, and they are elected by vote every few years. If what Poster Z says is true then the government of X is not a dictatorship, even if it has been erroneously labelled as such. This parallels what has occurred here.

[PrimeJunta]

Yes, illathid, therefore "combination of Scotland Yard and Her Majesty's Secret Service."

[PrimeJunta]

One more thing about Dunryd Row -- apart from what they've said, we can also make inferences from what they've shown. What they've shown is a portrait of a sympathetic-looking character in uniform -- note the prominent symbol on his vest -- using his cipher powers to investigate an object. That looks a lot like a police detective going about his job, and not a whole lot like a secret police agent repressing dissidents. I don't think it would be wise to ignore that either.

[Nonek]

Can Animancers torture people? The inquisitorial role discussed above raises that obvious question, we know that Ciphers are Spellswords now with only a few psychic powers, so would gleaning the truth from a suspect be something an Animancer could be employed to do? Remember those great old spells from AD&D that one could torment a Demon or Devil with, thus bending it to ones will, perhaps there are powers in an Animancer's repertoire that can wrack and ruin a soul, pain on an unimaginable level Soul deep.

 

Would such experiments mark or weaken the Soul, or maybe the reverse, perhaps strengthen it as it is tested and found to be not wanting? Is Animancy advanced enough to let the torturer be efficient in his use of such cruelty, or is it a blunt and clumsy tool?

[Gromnir]

 

* Although I have never seen the Frumentarii referred as "secret service" per se, certaily not in my old non-English books and I doubt that i would ever stop associate "secret service" with more modern period, at least on subconscious level.

 

quit it. is NOT secret service anymore than is secret santa or secret garden or secret squirrel.

 

 

 

as illathid observes, scotland yard would not be labeled as a secret police. secret police is a single identifiable term... don't parse. is not police who sometimes work in secret. secret police has well-defined denotation and connotation. the two words together create something different than the sum of the parts... given the context of this thread, perhaps you might think of it as akin to a chemical rather than physical change. 

 

now, is it possible that the obsidian who wrote the update were as confused as you? yeah. is possible they used "secret police" as a mash-up o' secret + police. Gromnir is taking this stuff second-hand from people quoting, but given josh's education (history major) am doubting he would do something like this by accident. if he wrote update, you can be assured he did so with knowledge and almost certainly with intent. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am very hopeful we don't have to explain venn diagrams and how a particular secret service could act as a secret police.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[PrimeJunta]

@Gromnir what's your interpretation of the picture?

[PrimeJunta]

Quote from Adam Brennecke:
 

We are developing a character that is an Orlan Cipher, who is a detective (Orlans are a new race in Project Eternity. They are small folk based after the gnome and the Halfling). He isn’t necessarily upper class, but he comes from wealth, so he dresses very nicely. Because he’s a Cipher he has somewhat psychic abilities that help him as a detective, and he uses that to investigate murders and the like. So that’s a character we are developing right now.

(Source.)

 

How do you reconcile that with "secret political police?" "Detective" and "investigate murders and the like" sure sounds more like Scotland Yard than Gestapo to me.

[Gromnir]

how small is orlan's? cipher looks to be doing something with a bladed weapon that has a reddish stain on it. he gots a johnny carson carnac pose going on, but we cannot say with any certainty if he is using arcane powers, or is perhaps just a bit of a drama queen.  maybe he need an aspirin? one would guess his outfit is a uniform as it prominently displays a symbol o' a raised fist with... dunno, a tiny bloody mace? the uniform could be showing allegiance to personal house, a governmental entity, or perhaps a local retro-ska band.

 

we rare assume. that being said, if the cipher is investigating, we cannot hazard context beyond possibility that he/she (is orlan males and females distinguishable at first glance?) is investigating an incident that included violence... or somebody used a rather unwieldy tool to spread raspberry jam on their toast. were there a crime? if there were a crime, were it political in nature? sabotage? political assassination? a simple b & e gone bad?  

 

as for most recent post, we has no difficulty reconciling the investigation o' murders with gestapo. the gestapo had detectives. however, the crimes they investigated were having a political connection. am not suggesting that is how adam used. he gotta provide more info. nevertheless, a secret police doing actual investigating is not surprising to us. am recalling a book that were made into a movie, the night of the generals. in the book (not sure abut the movie) there were simultaneous seeming investigations o' a murder being conducted by both the gestapo and the military police. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[Barothmuk]

Admittedly I've only been skimming this thread but I'm not really seeing the point of contention.

 

Any organized 'law enforcement' is going to be inherently oppressive because it is maintaining the domination of one class over another. The extent of this oppression will be dependant on the conditions of the time. To use a cheap and easy contrast the Cheka was maintaining 'proletarian' hegemony and was especially ‘oppressive’ because it was an embryonic state under siege from multiple foreign-powers and the previous ruling class, in contrast the law enforcement of your standard modern western state would be upholding the hegemony of the capitalist class and would be far less explicit in its domination due to the lack of any substantial threat however when challenged they would abandon the hegemonic wing of consent and instead rely on coercion to maintain their power.

 

With that said both of these systems would want to maintain ‘order’ in varying degrees so roles such as “murder investigator” and “servant of the ruling class" are hardly mutually exclusive.

 

Or maybe I've missed the point, I don't know.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Nonek]

It would seem a little early for a Poe equivalent of Robert Peel's famous organisation to be appearing, in which case Dunryd Row's police would be tools of state rather than public servants, and follow the lead of those in power rather than neccessarily enforcing law and order. Of course this doesn't mean that they will not do this as well, as an orderly and wealthy city is preferable to the alternative, merely that their first loyalty will be to whatever organisation is in power. However given the Dyrwood's unique position perhaps the Dunryd Row are or will become public servants, it's entirely possible.

 

Until that happens however one suspects the crimes they investigate will involve maintaining the status quo, ensuring taxes are paid, murders of the important are avenged and that the rulers of the city are in effect the biggest and nastiest gang to sit atop the whole pile.

[PrimeJunta]

how small is orlan's? cipher looks to be doing something with a bladed weapon that has a reddish stain on it. he gots a johnny carson carnac pose going on, but we cannot say with any certainty if he is using arcane powers, or is perhaps just a bit of a drama queen.

Caption: "An agent of Dunryd Row attempts to perceive a "housed" soul within a piece of evidence." So yes, he is using his arcane powers.

 

(I couldn't find the reference, but I do seem to recall that the fist holding that... thing was confirmed to be the Dunryd Row emblem.)

 

as for most recent post, we has no difficulty reconciling the investigation o' murders with gestapo. the gestapo had detectives. however, the crimes they investigated were having a political connection. am not suggesting that is how adam used. he gotta provide more info. nevertheless, a secret police doing actual investigating is not surprising to us. am recalling a book that were made into a movie, the night of the generals. in the book (not sure abut the movie) there were simultaneous seeming investigations o' a murder being conducted by both the gestapo and the military police.

Let's recap the known facts and supporting pieces of evidence.

 

Fact: Josh referred to Dunryd Row as 'secret police' and 'spy service' and said that it's staffed by ciphers.

Fact: A portrait of an agent of Dunryd Row shows a character in uniform performing an investigation.

Fact: Adam Brennecke referred to said agent as a 'detective' and stated that he 'investigates murders and such.'

 

Metatextual point: street addresses are common circumlocutions for police headquarters. Scotland Yard, Quai des Orfèvres etc. I can't think of a street address standing in for a state police, however. The Lubyanka for example was not a euphemism for the CheKa or the KGB.

 

Context: Dyrwood noble families are stated to engage in feuding on a regular basis.

 

My hypothesis:

 

"Secret police" in its modern sense presupposes a law-based state, where said police organization operates outside the law and in secret. I do not believe this fits Dyrwood exactly, since it is described as a feudal state, where the lord is the lawa. Therefore, Josh must have used the term to suggest an idea rather than in its precise technical meaning. I'm assuming, however, that 'secret police' is the closest he can get to expressing it in two words.¨

 

Therefore, to reconcile all this evidence, I posit that Dunryd Row combines several different but interrelated functions.

 

It is an investigative police organization, similar to Scotland Yard, in that it investigates crimes of a particularly notable and complex nature. In particular, it investigates crimes that are of direct interest to the ruling classes of Defiance Bay. If some scullion gets his head bashed in in a barfight, it's unlikely that they would be called in, but if the daughter of an aristocratic family is found dead in her bed the day before her wedding, they most likely would. In this function, Dunryd Row agents operate openly, in uniform, and as recognized agents of the Erl.

 

It is a spy service. It gathers intelligence on what is going on in Defiance Bay, and reports its findings to the Erl. It keeps tabs both on various local movers and shakers -- the aristocratic families, the organized crime, the trade companies, and what have you -- and functions as an arm of counter-intelligence against foreign agents. It also undertakes specific intelligence missions in this aspect of its function. In this role, the agents of Dunryd Row operate clandestinely.

 

Finally, Dunryd Row has extraordinary powers, including at the very least the power to detain suspects for interrogation, but possibly including secret courts and the ability to "disappear" people.

 

From where I'm at, this job description does not exactly fit the term 'secret police' in that it is not primarily a tool for political coercion or suppression of dissent, but it is clearly different from your normal town guard to make use of the term warranted.

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 31, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Nonek]

Then again I think that if there were political dissent or a revolutionary movement, a few key agitators might find themsleves in the dungeons of the Dunryd Row, contemplating the loss of their testes, eyes or fingers. A rulers primary aim is after all to ensure the continuation of their rule, at the expense of those they rule usually.

 

One thing that occurs to me is Necromancy, the art of raising the dead to talk with, as was so prominently featured in Arcanum, to great effect in my opinion. Can an Animancer do such a thing, wrench a recently deceased Soul back from the wheel for a time and question them? It raises interesting questions of morality and obviously highlights a use for Animancers in such organisations as Dunryd Row.

[Gromnir]

"It is an investigative police organization, similar to Scotland Yard,"

 

statements such as the above is not facts and is not clear supported. 

 

we don't find the name particular compelling, and as already stated, being a secret police does not in anyway diminish the likelihood of having detectives investigating murders. the gestapo was an investigative group. what made them a secret police group were their methods and their agenda/motivation.  additionally, the gestapo were administered by the ss and they were frequently uniformed. many members o' the aforementioned Inquisition had uniforms as well and their purpose clearly were investigative. etc. you are making a large number of guesses. is nothing wrong with doing so. typical that is how we make sense o' things when we don't have all the answers or enough facts.

 

all of which ignores the Fact that josh identified "Dunryd Row" as "secret police." josh's undergrad degree is history. that too is a fact. is it possible josh doesn't understand the difference 'tween a plain clothes police force  and a "secret police?" am s'posing it is possible, but how likely do you think that is? as 'tween your guessing, and the black letter meaning of josh's words which were in no way contradicted by identifying uniforms or investigative duties of dunryd row, am gonna go with clear black-letter meaning.

 

"From where I'm at, this job description does not exactly fit the term 'secret police' in that it is not primarily a tool for political coercion or suppression of dissent, but it is clearly different from your normal town guard to make use of the term warranted."

 

there is absolutely nothing we has seen that would preclude dunryd row being a tool (not need primary btw) of political coercion and suppression of dissent. at the same time, Gromnir does not see why carrying out ordinary police duties would preclude dunryd row from being properly identified as a secret police force. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[Mor]

Uh Gromnir... you had your last word, now lets agree to disagree and get back on topic of Animancy.

[Gromnir]

Uh Gromnir... you had your last word, now lets agree to disagree and get back on topic of Animancy.

*insert silly eye-roll emoticon here.*

 

if you want to talk animancy, what is the purpose o' your quoted post? more nonsense. 'least your other nonsense were tangential related to the topic at hand. see, technically your quoted post is spam. be aware of such in the future lest the moderators use as an excuse to prune the thread. add something relevant to topic--anything.

 

example: aninmancers create undead and make secret police possible. these actions alone may call into question the morality of the animancer. however, the question o' the morality o' animancy itself is arguably entirely different. for example, the actions o' fritz haber is rare used as a condemnation o' the field o' chemistry itself, though perhaps in an earlier time his contributions would have been used to damn chemistry and chemists en masse.  the distinction 'tween the morality o' animancer and animancy may be nothing other than petty sophistry. and again, manipulation of souls is unique. 

 

see is not hard to be on-topic even if mor's actual goal is something entire different. please refrain from littering the thread with spam and at least make an attempt to stay on-topic with a relevant observation or opine. 

 

sheesh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

The purpose was a reminder that other allowed to have a different opinion, I already tried to ignore\change the topic, but you seem unperturbed in your anal obsession over that single term, fighting our perception of the setting, which based on everything else. Now you just being obnoxious, but I don't know what expect from 40 years old with persona on the internet, even if it is not the off topic section.

 

Also Animancy is a field of study and Animancers are researchers who researched ways to understand souls. Abilities such as those the ciphers employ have been around for a while in various intelligent races and creatures, they have been used by Glanfathan Mind hunter as weapons of war, terrorizing the dyrwoodians. Long before the Animancers studied those abilities, or before Dyrwood decided to employ them. If you are suggesting that Dunryd Row is reason to condemn Animancy, it will be just another thing we disagree about. Otherwise we all agree that the actions of some of these researchers unethical, and this is how it is seen within the settings by many.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

The purpose was a reminder that other allowed to have a different opinion, I already tried to ignore\change the topic, but you seem unperturbed in your anal obsession over that single term, fighting our perception of the setting, which based on everything else. Now you just being obnoxious, but I don't know what expect from 40 years old with persona on the internet, even if it is not the off topic section.

 

Also Animancy is a field of study and Animancers are researchers who researched ways to understand souls. Abilities such as those the ciphers employ have been around for a while in various intelligent races and creatures, they have been used by Glanfathan Mind hunter as weapons of war, terrorizing the dyrwoodians. Long before the Animancers studied those abilities, or before Dyrwood decided to employ them. If you want to use this to condemnation of Animancy, it will be just another thing we disagree about. Otherwise we all agree that the actions of some of the researchers, and this is how it is seen within the settings by many.

where did Gromnir prevent anybody from having a differing opinion? please explain. am not having comic villain powers whereby we can snatch opinions from your brain. we don't even have board moderator prerogative, so is not as if we could prevent you from posting opinions. so, what additional nonsense is you gonna spout? you got an opinion? is nothing Gromnir can possibly do to stop you from having or posting such.

 

the irony o' you referring to Gromnir as anal and obnoxious is not lost on us however. nevertheless, as you don't seem to be catching on quickly, your name calling and/or spam is likely to result in thread pruning. we don't particular mind you acting out in such a manner. is kinda sad, but is common. the thing we would find unfortunate is if your wailing gets the thread pruned. that would be disappointing.  

 

the fact that animancy has been in use for a long time is as meaningful as your earlier time period observations-- which is to say, not. am suspecting that near all but the most dedicated existentialist will agree that slavery, while widely embraced in real world history, were immoral. the existentialist is actual a non-factor as he is gonna argue against the possibility o' morality in the first place. so, assuming that there is any kinda morality at all, am thinking it is obvious that stuff such as slavery and misogyny did not shed moral turpitude after some number o' years or centuries o' abuse and acceptance.  

 

one could argue that if the s'posed victims o' things such as slavery, misogyny and/or animancy do not see selves as victims and is functional willing participants in the systems that create, support and perpetuate such evils, then there is no actual evil being done. nevertheless, should be obvious that it is not time that gives legitimacy. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

one o' our favorite professors were a smidgen less nice than kingsfield

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wOUMd3bMRI

 

(edited a couple amusing spelling errors... added video... just for fun) 

Edited June 1, 2014 by Gromnir