Female gamers having a hard time in gaming communites

[BruceVC]

 

I dunno, I think Im pretty dead on wrt Bruce. Ymmv.

 

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating.

 

 

Yeah I definitley don't hate my own sex. I just feel we, men, need to do  much more to address the scourage of abuse both physical and verbal that women are subjected to in many aspects of society

[Malcador]

 

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there.

 

*ahem*

I judged it on at least two threads.

(Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.)

 

So there.

 

(& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?)

 

Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative.

I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place.

(Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.)

 

As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par.

My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt.

They're ineffectual or they're abusive.

Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case.

(I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.)

 

 

Well, you certainly are posting like the type I classed you as, so that's one good thing this afternoon.  Point was your statements are rather unfounded. Not many people here complain about the moderators letting this place fall into a cesspool, people bitch at each other and argue and that's fine as none of it is over the top - as you'd notice if you'd actually read threads.  Perhaps your sensibilities are a bit softer, but basing on your back handed hard man posting, that's not the case.

 

Good trolling though, perhaps Gfted1 will take the bait.

 

Heh, these 'safe space' things do run the risk of backfiring, sort of a target rich environment for people who want to abuse them for whatever reason they have.    Only permanent solution is to somehow magically make people more civil to one another online. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by Malcador

[Orogun01]

 

 

I dunno, I think Im pretty dead on wrt Bruce. Ymmv.

 

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating.

 

 

Yeah I definitley don't hate my own sex. I just feel we, men, need to do  much more to address the scourage of abuse both physical and verbal that women are subjected to in many aspects of society

 

I thought the whole point of women emancipating themselves was so that  they  would do all the stuff that we do. Either women and men are equal or do men have a privilege? Cause it always seem that the privilege conveniently presents itself to make up for some woman's shortcomings.

[BruceVC]

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button.

 

 

" So I'm not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button"

 

Your sardonic view on certain topics often makes me laugh. I will say this, it is bizarre that Paradox has almost the exact same views as me on this topic. Trust me I am equally surprised by it. But we don't know each other and I can promise you we are different people

 

But I will say this, he is clearly a highly  intelligent person as we can see from how he makes his points . Someone who I would say is a "heavy hitter" . He reminds of Alan and yes  I think its great that there is someone of his intellectual capacity that takes these issues seriously. So I hope he stays on the forums and continues to give his opinion

Edited May 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Yep, it's Bruce's alt.

 

 

 

 

I dunno, I think Im pretty dead on wrt Bruce. Ymmv.

 

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating.

 

 

Yeah I definitley don't hate my own sex. I just feel we, men, need to do  much more to address the scourage of abuse both physical and verbal that women are subjected to in many aspects of society

 

I thought the whole point of women emancipating themselves was so that  they  would do all the stuff that we do. Either women and men are equal or do men have a privilege? Cause it always seem that the privilege conveniently presents itself to make up for some woman's shortcomings.

 

 

Well, the argument goes that men will listen to men more than they will women so that's why men have to be, heh, "allies" and convince their fellow men to treat women in The Right Way, and so on.   At least that's what I've read here and there. 

[BruceVC]

Double post

Edited May 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[Ineth]

And now one is sulky and childish, if this continues I shall shrug and have another sip of tea.

 

That comment was directed at the whole "I never actually felt the need for an X myself, but if 'that other group' gets an X, then I must suddenly demand one as well in the name of pedantic 'equality'!" attitude which I read out of your post. Did I misinterpret?

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there.

 

*ahem*

I judged it on at least two threads.

(Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.)

 

So there.

 

(& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?)

 

Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative.

I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place.

(Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.)

 

As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par.

My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt.

They're ineffectual or they're abusive.

Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case.

(I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.)

 

 

 

Good trolling though, perhaps Gfted1 will take the bait.

 

 

 

Malc I have said this numerous times before but you must stop thinking people are trolling when they are actually engaging in an interesting or controversial debate

 

Trolling is not an exchange of intelligent or different views but is done only to get a emotional reaction, this discussion is not about trolling in any respects

Edited May 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[Nonek]

No Ineth i'm strongly against any such private institutions especially based on something as arbitrary as gender, but i'm not offended old chap, i'm rather a mild mannered individual.

 

Does anybody else find it deliciously ironic that Mr Lightfoot's thread has effectively segregated the SJW's from the rest of the forum? I am personally in favour of starting a new one when this one reaches a post count limit, perhaps called the "Pulpit" or "Sermons from St. Bruce's?"

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

We were having an exchange of different views? I thought the SJWs were just throwing their **** around again.

[Ineth]

Edit: The only people I take responsibility for are my wife, children, staff and some members of my extended family, personal responsibility is an oft overlooked and unfashionable choice, but I have always championed it.

 

+1

 

I don't buy the whole idea of "group guilt" and "group responsibility" among conceptual groups of people who have nothing to do with each other but just happen to share some identifying characteristic.

 

Too much Marxist class theory still floating around in the heads of "progressive" liberals; they transferred it from social classes onto genders etc. but that doesn't make it any less irrational and morally dubious.

[Malcador]

We were having an exchange of different views? I thought the SJWs were just throwing their **** around again.

 

Wait until they find the hot women thread....

[Ineth]

There is a big difference between a group of men who create a mens only club because they don't respect women or think they are superior to women ( this was historically the reason for  most mens clubs) and a group of women who want a womens only club because

they are the victim of abuse from men

 

I don't think it's reasonable to use speculation/fantasizing on likely common intentions as the basis for drawing up a moral line along gender boundaries à la "if women do it praise them, if men do it condemn them".

Individuals have intentions, not groups.

 

 

Personally, I think that the whole idea of trying to forbid "discrimination" in the realm of private interaction is unrealistic and incompatible with the idea of individual liberty.

When people choose to associate with others in exclusive spheres, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, because (regardless of who they are) they may have valid reasons to do so.

And even if I found their reasons stupid, it wouldn't give me the right to try and stop them.

 

 

So I guess my opinion on the topic of "safe spaces" can be summed up like this:

 

• Some people want to interact in private spaces from which I am excluded? Well, good for them. I'm not in the business of forcing people to interact with me.

   

• People want gaming companies to give moral and infrastructural support to some of those private clubs? I don't care about that either, as long as developer updates and other services provided by the company remain available in the public space (and thus to me).

   

• Will the existence of such exclusive spaces help to solve inherent problems in the larger community such as sexism / trolling / world hunger? I have no idea. If people are convinced it it will help, let them go ahead and try it out.

 

[BruceVC]

No Ineth i'm strongly against any such private institutions especially based on something as arbitrary as gender, but i'm not offended old chap, i'm rather a mild mannered individual.

 

Does anybody else find it deliciously ironic that Mr Lightfoot's thread has effectively segregated the SJW's from the rest of the forum? I am personally in favour of starting a new one when this one reaches a post count limit, perhaps called the "Pulpit" or "Sermons from St. Bruce's?"

 

Oh you do  make me laugh Nonek..

 

I think its great that we have a thread dedicated to issues of social justice, a topic that despite your claims on not really caring much about  you post continously in. And I'm not complaining. I enjoy your posts and this was your idea after all so the least you can do is contribute towards it

[Nonek]

I wouldn't say I don't care overmuch, more that I operate from a dispassionate point of view, as a cold hearted Englishman should. I thoroughly enjoy a good argument, stretch of the cerebral muscles so to speak Bruce.

 

Anyway goodnight all.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I thought the whole point of women emancipating themselves was so that  they  would do all the stuff that we do. Either women and men are equal or do men have a privilege? Cause it always seem that the privilege conveniently presents itself to make up for some woman's shortcomings.

 

I don't really see any inherent contradiction in "men and women are equal and should be treated as such, but they're not".

 

Also, I really don't appreciate the insinuation that women made up the concept of privilege in order to have something to blame their own failures on, but if you could provide concrete examples where you feel that this is the case, I'm more than willing to reevaluate my stance.

 

Well, the argument goes that men will listen to men more than they will women so that's why men have to be, heh, "allies" and convince their fellow men to treat women in The Right Way, and so on.   At least that's what I've read here and there. 

 

Malc, you are a scientist. Please, act like one. Let go of your preconceptions and see what is actually before your eyes. I know, it's hard, but being intentionally obtuse and dismissive does not benefit anyone, including you.

 

- Nobody said that men generally listen to men more. (That would be kind of a sexist assumption.) But some people in a position of privilege do tend to dismiss the points marginalized people make, writing it off as "something they made up to excuse their own failures". Generally, these people will not be convinced by the same argument, even if they are repeated by people who are not part of said marginalized group, but still, one has to try.

- Nobody said men "have to be 'allies'". Ever. I, however, subscribe to the viewpoint that feminism should be led by women, because, y'know, it's basically about them. Therefore, men should take more of a supporting stance, which is generally referred to as "being an ally".

- Also, "seeing women treated The Right Way" sounds suspiciously like something a white knight would clamor for, not a feminist ally. I know, it's fashionable to treat these as synonims, but they are not.

[Malcador]

Malc, you are a scientist. Please, act like one. Let go of your preconceptions and see what is actually before your eyes. I know, it's hard, but being intentionally obtuse and dismissive does not benefit anyone, including you.

 

- Nobody said that men generally listen to men more. (That would be kind of a sexist assumption.) But some people in a position of privilege do tend to dismiss the points marginalized people make, writing it off as "something they made up to excuse their own failures". Generally, these people will not be convinced by the same argument, even if they are repeated by people who are not part of said marginalized group, but still, one has to try.

- Nobody said men "have to be 'allies'". Ever. I, however, subscribe to the viewpoint that feminism should be led by women, because, y'know, it's basically about them. Therefore, men should take more of a supporting stance, which is generally referred to as "being an ally".

- Also, "seeing women treated The Right Way" sounds suspiciously like something a white knight would clamor for, not a feminist ally. I know, it's fashionable to treat these as synonims, but they are not.

Uhm ok, what preconceptions do I have exactly from that post ? I never said anyone here said the argument, but it's what I've read in certain places and related to Bruce's post that Orugon01 was quoting in his response and to Orugon's post as well.

[Ineth]

Only permanent solution is to somehow magically make people more civil to one another [...]

 

Keep in mind that going down that road inevitably leads to space zombies.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Uhm ok, what preconceptions do I have exactly from that post ? I never said anyone here said the argument, but it's what I've read in certain places and related to Bruce's post that Orugon01 was quoting in his response and to Orugon's post as well.

 

 

Very well, I have misunderstood the phrase "here and there" as "here, on this forum, and on some places, too". Happens sometimes when you're not a native speaker.

 

I should maybe apologize, but this is not the first time I get the impression that you intentionally misinterpret (or misremember?) points made by feminists, and judge the whole movement based on that.

[Malcador]

Very well, I have misunderstood the phrase "here and there" as "here, on this forum, and on some places, too". Happens sometimes when you're not a native speaker.

 

I should maybe apologize, but this is not the first time I get the impression that you intentionally misinterpret (or misremember?) points made by feminists, and judge the whole movement based on that.

Well then, no need to apologize. Not too sure of where you are getting this impression or what points I've 'intentionally misinterpreted' with respect to feminist arguments, but you can certainly labour under it.

[Malekith]

 

 

 

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there.

 

*ahem*

I judged it on at least two threads.

(Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.)

 

So there.

 

(& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?)

 

Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative.

I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place.

(Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.)

 

As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par.

My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt.

They're ineffectual or they're abusive.

Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case.

(I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.)

 

 

 

Good trolling though, perhaps Gfted1 will take the bait.

 

 

 

Malc I have said this numerous times before but you must stop thinking people are trolling when they are actually engaging in an interesting or controversial debate

 

Trolling is not an exchange of intelligent or different views but is done only to get a emotional reaction, this discussion is not about trolling in any respects

 

But you are the one that assumed  Bester was trolling.

And you said that if he wasn't trolling, you don't care about his opinion. That's not engaging in an interesting or controversial debate. Shame on you Bruce.

 

 

I kid you, i like you well enough as a poster, but i just can't help but find your antics amusing

 

Edited May 15, 2014 by Malekith

[Chilloutman]

 

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

 

 

 You have raised a good point and that is the normal way most people deal with issues where people are offensive, they ignore or block them and there is nothing wrong with that as many people don't like to be confrontational. But  sometimes that emboldens bigots and they think they can  act with impunity. So nowadays in most circumstances I confront people who are being offensive, its not always easy to do but I truly feel its the right thing to do. And of course it depends on the environment. For example I wont challange one of my customers around certain issues as I have to respect the customer relationship

 

So double standards for anonymouse internet forum but good boy before 'moraly shady' customers? just teasing

[Gromnir]

as we said earlier, a women-only section for the women who ain't posting here is unnecessary.

 

that being said, Gromnir complete recognizes that we don't understand women well enough to be able to speak for them. sure, we can looks at an issue cold and rational and devoid o' gender, but to do so is probable missing the point. example: am recalling we watched Children of Dune (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/) with a girlfriend of ours.  that were 11 years ago? wow. our significant other at the time were hardly a card carrying member o' NOW. regarding economic issues she tended to be a bit conservative, but like many folks, she were more concerned with issues than with party-line philosophies. she were educated (better than Gromnir) and made lots o' money. anywho, when we watched Children of Dune, we were surprised a bit. the fact that the kwisatz haderach were male-- had to be a male-- bothered our girlfriend more than a bit. we saw loads o' strong women characters in Children of Dune. our girlfriend saw the miniseries much different than us, with women needing to be rescued by men and all sorta other misogynist staples. we were wise enough to not argue, but we were mildly shocked at how complete different our girlfriend viewed the miniseries, and how she specifically saw it in terms o' the male v. female dichotomy. 

 

is just an example. we could give dozens o' similar, but different examples oh how we is caught off-guard by female perspective. am not saying that female perspective is right or wrong or that female pov specific deserves recognition-- we let you each decide according to your conscience. regardless, we does recognize that there IS a female perspective and typically we needs to consciously guess at it, 'cause it don't come natural to us.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[tajerio]

In relation to this whole "is it my responsibility as a male to do anything about other males that suck" debate, I think that your average SJW miscasts the role that men ought to play.

 

I am happy to caustically make fun of troglodytic misogyny, and I won't tolerate that behavior from anyone with whom I choose to associate.  But I can't change their minds.  There are people who don't have much information or don't like to think about these problems (I was one until two years ago), and engaging with males in that boat is fine and probably a pretty good idea.  Though I hasten to add that I don't believe it's every man's duty to go around educating his fellow man, whether he likes it or not.  

 

But engaging the true misogynists is really just a waste of time.  The only thing that really comes out of that is that SJWs go extreme in responding to extremism, and that's doing nobody any favors.  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Well then, no need to apologize. Not too sure of where you are getting this impression or what points I've 'intentionally misinterpreted' with respect to feminist arguments, but you can certainly labour under it.

 

 

Different topic, too lazy to look up atm (and will probably forget about it later). Let's leave it at that.

Edited May 15, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid