Female gamers having a hard time in gaming communites

[Nonek]

 

if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple

 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that.

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

 

 

Discussing this very matter over dinner with Mrs Nonek.

 

As far as I am able to see, barring an unfamiliarity with English, no one on these or any forums are inequal, we are all treated equally and have the same rights so the comparison is a poor one. However the short person is merely asking for the same rights so that he or she may function like the group, simple equality, rather than having new shelves built especially for him or her that no tall person may use. There is a very large divide between segregation and equality.

 

And now one is sulky and childish, if this continues I shall shrug and have another sip of tea. Actually i'll do that anyway, please continue.

 

Edit: The only people I take responsibility for are my wife, children, staff and some members of my extended family, personal responsibility is an oft overlooked and unfashionable choice, but I have always championed it.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

 

That was a general comment, actually.

You know, aimed at all men?

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

(That seems like enlightened self-interest, no? If someone does something that's both bigoted nonsense and makes you look bad, you tell them to knock it off?)

 

I was under the impression this thread involved arguments and discussion, not a series of personal conversations between pairs of people.

Don't assume everything was aimed at one person just because the bulk of my response was to counter points they had raised.

(In other words, "Don't talk it personally".)

 

Oh, and the "abusive backwards cavemen" wasn't aimed at Nonek either.

I believe he's mistaken and has faulty reasoning, but I don't believe he's backwards nor has he actually been abusive.

Wrong, but not stupid.

(Again, general comments on the overall thread/forums being included as part of a full argument.)

 

Although I don't know, maybe he does live in a cave and is remarkably sensitive about it. In which case, I apologise & I'm sure the cave is lovely.

 

 

Once again I find myself agreeing with most of what you say. You have a way of articulating what I mean to say but sometimes cant quite convey, in fact I wish you were my alt

[Malcador]

 

Read a bit better, that was my post not Gfted's and thankfully I am not a moderator. So might want to check the victimized rant a little bit.

Apologies. I mistyped.

(I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.)

 

That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked.

 

 

Right.  Well glad you registered here to spread the light.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

As far as I am able to see, barring an unfamiliarity with English, no one on these or any forums are inequal, we are all treated equally and have the same rights so the comparison is a poor one. However the short person is merely asking for the same rights so that he or she may function like the group

 

 

Not really a concern on this forum in my experience, but asking for private spaces in order to not get rape threats and unpleasant things like that seems to me like something motivated by a desire to be able to function like the rest of the group (who usually don't get rape threats by virtue of being male).

[BruceVC]

 

 

Read a bit better, that was my post not Gfted's and thankfully I am not a moderator. So might want to check the victimized rant a little bit.

Apologies. I mistyped.

(I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.)

 

That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked.

 

 

Right.  Well glad you registered here to spread the light.

 

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Perhaps I'm too much of a caveman(I enjoy looking at pics of sexy ladies after all), but I don't see female gamers having that hard of a time here. Admittedly there aren't very many here, but that is less due to our conduct and more due to the games discussed on this forum not appealing to the average female gamer*.

 

 

* According to a "Maria Caliban", allegedly a female gamer.

[JadedWolf]

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

[Gfted1]

Not really a concern on this forum in my experience, but asking for private spaces in order to not get rape threats and unpleasant things like that seems to me like something motivated by a desire to be able to function like the rest of the group (who usually don't get rape threats by virtue of being male).

How would they function like the rest of the group while segregated from the rest of the group?

[Malcador]

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there.

[Nonek]

 

As far as I am able to see, barring an unfamiliarity with English, no one on these or any forums are inequal, we are all treated equally and have the same rights so the comparison is a poor one. However the short person is merely asking for the same rights so that he or she may function like the group

 

 

Not really a concern on this forum in my experience, but asking for private spaces in order to not get rape threats and unpleasant things like that seems to me like something motivated by a desire to be able to function like the rest of the group (who usually don't get rape threats by virtue of being male).

 

 

That is running away from the problem as far as I am concerned Aluminium, if one wishes to combat such a bully then one demands that he be brought to book for such offenses, and the forum provider has a duty of care to ensure that you do not suffer from such again. Running away and being segregated according to gender does nothing about the situation, merely maintains it and certainly does not grant you an equal experience.

[Gfted1]

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button.

[SusurrusParadox]

 

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

 

Not all guys do, so that's not a terribly sound argument.

 

That said, why not?

A mild inconvenience (oh no, you have to ignore him when you would do that anyway?) in exchange for making it clear to that individual that his behaviour is not condoned by fellow men?

(I think perhaps you underestimate the cognitive effect that social shame can often have, particularly as regards that particular sort of male ego.)

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Not really a concern on this forum in my experience, but asking for private spaces in order to not get rape threats and unpleasant things like that seems to me like something motivated by a desire to be able to function like the rest of the group (who usually don't get rape threats by virtue of being male).

How would they function like the rest of the group while segregated from the rest of the group?

 

 

Well, since segregation is a two-way street, they would probably function the same as the rest of the group, including being segregated

 

Non-smartass answer: I don't really know, neither do I care. As I've previously stated, I have no preference either way on the subject of segregation, and I am of the opinion that this question should be settled by women. Y'know, the ones who are actually in the position to evaluate whether not having their inbox filled with Nasty Stuff is worth suffering the cons of segregation?

[SusurrusParadox]

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button.

 

I'm not self-loathing at all. I like me, and I happen to like being male.

What I dislike is people being, well for lack of a better term... phalluses.

 

Also, "they" is a good third-person gender-neutral singular pronoun.

Just for future reference.

(Pretty sure I clarified my gender in one of the earlier posts actually.)

 

As for parroting, I.. don't think I actually echoed any of.. well I can't see who you quoted but whomever that person is.

Similarity present (because we seem to share views), but no actual facsimile.

I'd also reckon our typing styles are rather distinct, based on what I've seen.

 

But by all means if you want to fall into conspiracy theorising then go ahead.

(Wouldn't my little badge denoting my 'Project Eternity Backer' status refute that though?)

 

 

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

 

Not all guys do, so that's not a terribly sound argument.

 

That said, why not?

A mild inconvenience (oh no, you have to ignore him when you would do that anyway?) in exchange for making it clear to that individual that his behaviour is not condoned by fellow men?

(I think perhaps you underestimate the cognitive effect that social shame can often have, particularly as regards that particular sort of male ego.)

 

In real life, mayhaps. On the internet? Nope - they can be totally anonymous and piss people off, and they get off on that. And the more people show that they dislike it, they more they get off on it. So that's why in the end ignoring them hurts them more.

[Gfted1]

Non-smartass answer: I don't really know, neither do I care. As I've previously stated, I have no preference either way on the subject of segregation, and I am of the opinion that this question should be settled by women. Y'know, the ones who are actually in the position to evaluate whether not having their inbox filled with Nasty Stuff is worth suffering the cons of segregation?

But then how would BruceVC pass his time?

 

I kid. The solution is for the aggrieved to push the "Report" button and state their case. Then we will deal with the issue on a case by case basis. Not for random internet blowhards to determine for them that they have been slighted.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button.

 

 

Could we please refrain from gross oversimplifications like "self loathing man hating perspective"?

[Gfted1]

I dunno, I think Im pretty dead on wrt Bruce. The jury is still out on the other. Ymmv.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I dunno, I think Im pretty dead on wrt Bruce. Ymmv.

 

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating.

[JadedWolf]

I actually like Bruce. From what I can see from his posts I think he has his heart in the right place. That's exactly why I am so puzzled that he seems to have an outlook that I find very difficult to understand.

[BruceVC]

 

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

 

 

 You have raised a good point and that is the normal way most people deal with issues where people are offensive, they ignore or block them and there is nothing wrong with that as many people don't like to be confrontational. But  sometimes that emboldens bigots and they think they can  act with impunity. So nowadays in most circumstances I confront people who are being offensive, its not always easy to do but I truly feel its the right thing to do. And of course it depends on the environment. For example I wont challange one of my customers around certain issues as I have to respect the customer relationship

[SusurrusParadox]

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there.

 

*ahem*

I judged it on at least two threads.

(Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.)

 

So there.

 

(& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?)

 

Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative.

I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place.

(Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.)

 

As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par.

My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt.

They're ineffectual or they're abusive.

Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case.

(I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button.

Don't know if it was intentional, but I see an insinuation of masturbation in the last line.

[Gfted1]

[SusurrusParadox]

 

 

 

 

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

 

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too.

 

Not all guys do, so that's not a terribly sound argument.

 

That said, why not?

A mild inconvenience (oh no, you have to ignore him when you would do that anyway?) in exchange for making it clear to that individual that his behaviour is not condoned by fellow men?

(I think perhaps you underestimate the cognitive effect that social shame can often have, particularly as regards that particular sort of male ego.)

 

In real life, mayhaps. On the internet? Nope - they can be totally anonymous and piss people off, and they get off on that. And the more people show that they dislike it, they more they get off on it. So that's why in the end ignoring them hurts them more.

 

That is a very fair point.

I'll concede that.

(Though I don't know, sometimes they're not trolling and actually genuinely believe the ignorance they're spouting. Never believe "no-one's that stupid". You will be wrong pretty much every time.)

 

However in that case the issue is then whether the moderation is effective and the proper systems are in place to ensure that something is actually done about it.

(Also, very minor thing but: Usually they're pseudonymous rather than truly anonymous. Though proxies can obfuscate that additional data that administrators and sometimes moderators have access to.)