Stealth and Combat

[Lephys]

There's a 97% chance this is a silly question, but is it possible for the first attack a Rogue makes (within the first 2 seconds) to be a Lethal Strike?

 

Also, does the "first two seconds" condition stack with Flanking in regard to Sneak Attack/Lethal Strike mechanics?

 

I guess that's really the question I should ask: Does the "within the first 2 seconds" condition behave any differently than any other Sneak Attack condition?

[J.E. Sawyer]

It doesn't behave any differently, no.  Until a rogue gets access to Deathblows (at fairly high level in PoE), it doesn't matter how many qualifying statuses are on a target.  If the target is Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Stunned, and it's the first 2 seconds of combat, it's still an ordinary Sneak Attack.  Deathblows increases Sneak Attack damage in cases where there are two or more qualifying statuses on the target (from any source).

[Lephys]

Ahhhh. Much appreciated mechanic details. Thanks!

 

(Also, I was totally calling them "lethal strikes." But I meant the deathblows. My mistake. The "sneak attacks on steroids." )

Edited May 20, 2014 by Lephys

[constantine]

Rogues are soooo going to rock.

 

[Sensuki]

I have yet to see any characters stunlocked by standard damage-dealing attacks (i.e. by attacks other than those that cause the Prone, Paralyzed, Petrified, etc. Afflictions).  Most attacks that have high Interrupt ratings also have slow attack rates.  What a rogue can do is put an enemy in a variety of states that ensure Sneak Attack is continuously valid against them.

How effective is a character with say 18 Perception in that regard? (which IMO still seems like the weakest attribute, but I'm not sure how effective the Penetration part is yet).

[Valorian]

Re: Sneak attacks, rogues, etc.

 

I think it's important to keep in mind the inherent advantage of ranged weapons, especially when the attacker is boosted with a +damage passive ability. You're less likely to be engaged in melee and get smacked in the face (though you need to be somewhat close to your target to sneak attack in PoE, AFAIK) and you're more likely to benefit from the 2 seconds window to sneak attack.

[Lephys]

^ That said, I wonder if there's any advantage to landing a melee sneak attack instead of a ranged one. I mean, at melee range, on an unsuspecting person, you have a lot more angle/location opportunities for placing the dagger or what-have-you. Not that ranged attacks against someone not defending against them would be piddly, by any means. Just... it's possible that, mechanically, the melee attack would have some advantage. *shrug*

[Valorian]

Making ranged weapons less accurate in general would do the trick IMO.

[rjshae]

^ That said, I wonder if there's any advantage to landing a melee sneak attack instead of a ranged one. I mean, at melee range, on an unsuspecting person, you have a lot more angle/location opportunities for placing the dagger or what-have-you. Not that ranged attacks against someone not defending against them would be piddly, by any means. Just... it's possible that, mechanically, the melee attack would have some advantage. *shrug*

 

Presumably you get a Power/Might damage bonus with a melee weapon?

[Sensuki]

The answer is no. Might applies to all damage. You won't get a special might bonus for landing a melee sneak attack, you'll be granted the sneak attack bonus damage for it.

 

A lot of you guys still talk in simulation.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lephys]

A lot of you guys still talk in simulation.

It's literally more difficult to close all the distance on an enemy to attack with a melee weapon in a 2-second span than it is to simply stand where you are, 30-50 feet away and fire an arrow or bolt or bullet at that target... within the game mechanics. So, I don't understand what's so simulationy about that. It's just "Hey, the ease of execution of this one option for getting a start-of-battle Sneak Attack is different from the ease of execution of this other option. Maybe there's something else that's different, too, to make the decision less one-sided, and more worth considering."

 

Valorian's mention of ranged weapons being less accurate is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. And now, on that, I'm just not sure how inaccurate firing something at a target that isn't yet reacting to your attack would be. If you're trained with that ranged weapon, that is. I can't remember; mechanically, does the Sneak Attack grant any Accuracy bonus (with any weapon, whether specific ones or not), or does it only grant a damage bonus? Ahh, I just double-checked the update, and it only grants bonus damage.

 

So, *shrug*. I'm not necessarily saying there should be some different modifier that applies via Sneak Attack only to melee weapons. I'm simply wondering if, with all factors in play, there's a significant advantage for actually closing to melee range for a Sneak Attack, instead of just pew-pew-ing from a distance.

[Infiltrator_SF]

It doesn't behave any differently, no.  Until a rogue gets access to Deathblows (at fairly high level in PoE), it doesn't matter how many qualifying statuses are on a target.  If the target is Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Stunned, and it's the first 2 seconds of combat, it's still an ordinary Sneak Attack.  Deathblows increases Sneak Attack damage in cases where there are two or more qualifying statuses on the target (from any source).

 

So, I'm guessing rogues (or any other party members) can't apply 2 sneak attack modifiers on a single target prior to combat, which would translate that rogues can't "one-shot" soft, high priority targets (like mages before they bring up their defences) like in previous IE games? 

[Lephys]

He said it doesn't behave any differently than any other status, and that if there are 2 or more qualifying statuses on the target, Deathblows (if you've got access to them) are a go. Thus, I'd imagine it's entirely possible to get get two statuses on that target when the Rogue strikes for the first time, be it from traps, the first ability/spell other party members cast/use at the beginning of combat, etc. I mean, one of them is "Flanked," which probably only requires that someone else be engaging your target when you attack (presumably from the rear 180+ degree arc). Etc.

 

Basically, seems like there's nothings stopping the Rogue's first attack, in a given combat encounter, to be a Deathblow.

 

Also, I don't think it functionally 1-shots something, despite its name. I think it's just a further boost (than a mere Sneak Attack) to damage. It could kill something in one hit, but it doesn't necessarily.

[Infiltrator_SF]

He said it doesn't behave any differently than any other status, and that if there are 2 or more qualifying statuses on the target, Deathblows (if you've got access to them) are a go. Thus, I'd imagine it's entirely possible to get get two statuses on that target when the Rogue strikes for the first time, be it from traps, the first ability/spell other party members cast/use at the beginning of combat, etc. I mean, one of them is "Flanked," which probably only requires that someone else be engaging your target when you attack (presumably from the rear 180+ degree arc). Etc.

 

Basically, seems like there's nothings stopping the Rogue's first attack, in a given combat encounter, to be a Deathblow.

 

Also, I don't think it functionally 1-shots something, despite its name. I think it's just a further boost (than a mere Sneak Attack) to damage. It could kill something in one hit, but it doesn't necessarily.

 

To me, deathblow seems to be more of a extension of the rogue so he can deal with enemies with unusually high health/protection later in the game, and not falling behind other classes in DPS.

 

I think if any class should be able to "one-shot" mage-type enemies from the shadow, it should be the rogue, for a couple of reasons:

 

1. It requires the most effort to get a rogue in a position to do it, a cipher or ranger would just use their attack from afar with little regard to sneaking in the true danger zone.

2. The rogue is left exposed after the attack, and now has to manage whatever the mage's escort was. Other classes can begin the engagement from relative safety in comparison.

 

I'm not asking if the rogue can 100% one shot every mage regardless of circumstance. I'm saying that it would make sense, given proper gear, skill choices and other circumstances, that a rogue who can actually get that much close to a cloth-wearing enemy should reap the rewards of such efforts, which is to kill them outright (again, with the proper parts of the equation being met by the player).

 

This system would be far better than what we had in IE games, which was, either rely on luck and kill anything (crit from the shadows), or miss and end up reloading, or use the most bizzare weapons for the best end-result on average (backstab people with staffs..).

 

So if a rogue who has invested into backstabbing does manage to come up to a similar-level mage NPC who is not aware of him, and has a potent dagger/posion on it, he should, by all means, one-shot him.

[ljbo]

So basically the tactic in BG that consists in stealth, then backstab, then run away behind an obstacle and stealth again, then rinse and repeat, won't be possible?

[Mor]

Yes. Here its more like scout\surpise\stab then manuver\incapacitate\stab

[Lephys]

@Infiltrator:

 

I was just clarifying the function of Deathblows (despite the word "death" in their name). I fully endorse the sheer ability to generate enough damage in a Deathblow, at the beginning of combat, to "one-shot" a given enemy, under the proper circumstances.

[Infiltrator_SF]

@Infiltrator:

 

I was just clarifying the function of Deathblows (despite the word "death" in their name). I fully endorse the sheer ability to generate enough damage in a Deathblow, at the beginning of combat, to "one-shot" a given enemy, under the proper circumstances.

 

As do I, given the new mechanics I think it can be far more interesting as well.

 

So basically the tactic in BG that consists in stealth, then backstab, then run away behind an obstacle and stealth again, then rinse and repeat, won't be possible?

 

Well, just by looking at how stealth works it won't be possible. Stealth used to be a 1/0 switch, now you can't just go around with impunity in front of someone then stab them in the back with a quarterstaff.

[ljbo]

now you can't just go around with impunity in front of someone then stab them in the back with a quarterstaff.

 

The requirement to go out of sight before going to stealth again in BG was sensible, and classic ninja mythos. I am not saying I am disappointed PoE got rid of that: I would not like it to feel like BG3! But that does not mean BG was wrong here.

[Lephys]

I'm going to have a main character who's a Wizard, and just 5 Rogues to fill out the rest of the party. I'll just toss all the Obscuring Mists and debilitating effects I can, then have the Rogues swoop in like a swarm of bees. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

[AGX-17]

 

The rouge jokes will continue as long as people continue to mis-spell 'rogue'.

 

 

Rouge is a perfectly valid form of concealment. Admittedly not as effective for the typical male as it is for a female with a high charisma attribute.

 

 

Well, there are customers who prefer a good fop over ladies of the night or little boys.

Edited May 30, 2014 by AGX-17