Israel vs Palestine

[Mor]

 

Why are the West Bank and Gaza Strip blockaded by Jordan and Egypt respectively? Why cant they get the stuff they need through those countries that they border?

I imagine it's because those countries don't want to get sucked into conflict with Israel. It's not their cause. Egypt is cracking down on militant Islam (the Muslim brotherhood). Jordan is still ruled by a king. There are tunnels on those borders too though and a black economy.

 

Jordan has no shared border with the West Bank.. As for Egypt: since Hamas took over Gaza strip turning the first strip of Palestinian land that was granted freedom ( by Israel good faith gesture ) into stronghold of totalitarianism, Egypt were lax in their duties to secure their border with Gaza (not wanting to appear cooperating too much with Israel in the eye of their public), which allowed Hamas to flourish for years from smuggling, however the recent events In Egypt bread unrest and fierce anti-Islamist sentiment, which promoted its anti insurgency operation in adjacent Sinai** and Gaza Islamist groups has been seen as a threat. Which is why Egypt has been actively working against Hamas smuggling operations which weakened Hamas.

 

 

Hence all the talk about Hamas weakened state on the first pages of this thread, that might have prompted its current escalation, and later reference to Israel security concerns which can be summed as not wanting to repeat the mistake of the past, be giving a shared border to West Bank and Jordan, and thus staking its security on Arab whims, which the find very dangerous in the current climate in the region.

 

 

Other than that neither as I said before Egypt nor Jordan has "blockaded" Gaza Strip or West Bank, although they do restrict imports such as arms, inline with international agreements (signed by the Palestinian Authority) and supervision. For that matter Israel never "blockaded" its own land crossing, only unsupervised sea access which Hamas thought to exploit to smuggle weapons, and even then everything were redirected through Egypt or Israel land crossings. In fact I bet that even now as Hamas rains rockets on Israel, Israel supplies it with all the basics.

 

** although I doubt you heard of it, no more then the Pakistan's operation that is underway against the Taliban. Israel always has "benefited" from excessive attention and moral double standards.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

Well, I do have to admit I do find it highly amusing that you accuse others of being disingenuous or obtuse, seeing as you didn't link to your first post on the subject which contains a rather inconvenient line about many Jewish majority areas, with no equivocation at all about habitability. 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66123-israel-vs-palestine/?p=1466145

 

that were arguable our first post on the subject. we were responding to ros and observed 'bout the 33% population... which were true. afterwards is when he and you brought up other bs about how much arabs owned v. jews at time of the partition plan... which we then further clarified.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66123-israel-vs-palestine/?p=1466161

 

this post were in response to gorgon. it mentions that jews were a majority in some areas... which they were. again, you ain't getting that uninhabitable lands were not arab lands. the partitions, as outlined by unscop, resulted in territories that were either having a jewish majority or were useless desert.

 

" so the UN takes a look at a map o' the british mandate and recognizes that the jews there is already a majority in many areas and there is a lot o' useless desert area to dump new refugees into."

 

hardly seems inconsistent. looks like you is the one misreading or outright fibbing... again.

 

we did leave out a link to one other post, simply 'cause we didn't see it when reviewing. 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66123-israel-vs-palestine/?p=1466287

 

in that post we again stress that much o' the land given to the jews were wasteland and that stoopid maps ignore non-arab owners and state-owned lands. is actual a flaw in Gromnir's character that we can be dogged consistent.

 

soooo...

 

you keep chasing your tail on this one. either you didn't read before or you ain't reading now, but either way you reaffirm our contention 'bout you being obtuse willful or accidental.  thanks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TrashMan]

Latest news: Hamas asks for 4 reasonable things; a larger fishing zone for palestinians (since their tiny zone is almost empty of fish), re-building of the gaza airport and allowing more trade across the borders - all are rather vital for the development and growth of gaza. Something you might call a bare civilized minimum.

Israel naturally sez no.

 

b.t.w. - those of you saying how evil Hamas is for fighting from Gaza (which will inmevitably lead to civilian casualties) - where else are they supposed to fight from? Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. It's not like they can invade Israel and fight on their territory.

[BruceVC]

Latest news: Hamas asks for 4 reasonable things; a larger fishing zone for palestinians (since their tiny zone is almost empty of fish), re-building of the gaza airport and allowing more trade across the borders - all are rather vital for the development and growth of gaza. Something you might call a bare civilized minimum.

Israel naturally sez no.

 

b.t.w. - those of you saying how evil Hamas is for fighting from Gaza (which will inmevitably lead to civilian casualties) - where else are they supposed to fight from? Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. It's not like they can invade Israel and fight on their territory.

 

I guess the common argument is that Hamas claims to represent the aspirations of the Palestinians yet there strategies lead to loss of Palestinians lives, so from my perspective there political agenda is more important that the lives of the people they claim to represent?

Which is why I cannot take them that seriously

Edited July 25, 2014 by BruceVC

[TrashMan]

where we say that? the arguments made in the cartoon were not credible when made in print in this thread. you then post a cartoon summation. we observe that the cartoon doesn't make more true.  your reasoning is flawed.

 

 

That could be my reply to your every post.

Not nice when people nitpick and put words in your mouth, is it?

 

 

 

 

let all the arabs back into their previous lands (side note: the lands they woulda' had if they had gone along with the UN partition instead of initiating a war o' extermination against the jews) and now the israelis gotta displace citizens who has been living and improving lands for decades and they add an overtly hostile and majority population into the mix. does that make any sense to anybody? even here in the US, the Oglala and Lakota don't actual expect or demand US citizens to be displaced from the Black Hills, 'cause that would be stupid. oh, and we has seen just how well arab nations has handled recent experiments with democracy.... but am certain the palestinian arabs wouldn't take advantage o' the situation once they were a majority populace in a democratic state along with israeli jews.

 

*snort*

 

 

Yes, because Israel is sooooo democratic and law-abiding and tolerant. A bright spot in the "horrible" middle east and those "uncivilized, dirty arabs". Right?

 

*double snort*

[Meshugger]

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel has the worse democratic institutions, traditions and due process compared to its neighbours?

[Gromnir]

difference is we show where your reasoning is flawed.

 

you are even more obtuse than zor. put  "uncivilized, dirty arabs" in quotes and act like we said such stuff makes you look childish in addition to your previous problems making a coherent argument. we never claimed that israel were an egalitarian state where arabs and jews were getting equal protection. that ain't the case and we ain't pretending it is. your cartoon ignores the reality that the arabs is not gonna treat the jews any more more fair if they has a majority. the UN partition plan were not authored by idiots-- they recognized throwing the jews and arabs together were not a feasible solution back in 1947-48. cartoon suggests letting arabs back into occupied territories so that jews in israel is outnumbered and outflanked by a hostile population that when given the opportunity has elected organizations such as hamas. brilliant freaking plan. 

 

the israelis haven't be serious 'bout peace since 2001.  they ain't blameless, but nobody in this sad drama is blameless. everybody has blood on their hands. pretending like arabs or jews is just victims is not helpful.  to be fair to you, is not as if you is alone in your myopic view o' israel. the issue of arabs, jews and the british mandate territories is so polarizing that few folks can discuss rationally. and the media don't help neither. tv journalists love to do Drama. photographers will focus on a blood soaked shirt on a dusty road and make it symbolic o' the whole jewish/arab conflict. *groan* reporters does the same but with the story o' a mother separated from her children in gaza, or showing a jewish victims o' suicide bombers or whatever. if one story needs a little objectivity and perspective, this is it, but objectivity ain't what gets folks to tune in to cnn or read al jazeera. 

 

bah. am repeating self and we do not honestly believe you is willing to listen.

 

"It's not like they can invade Israel and fight on their territory."

 

actually, they could. they would lose, but they could do so. they will lose anyway, so am not sure what the point is. oh, and your hamas demands list is amusing. kinda cute actually.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 25, 2014 by Gromnir

[TrashMan]

difference is we show where your reasoning is flawed.

 

you are even more obtuse than zor. put  "uncivilized, dirty arabs" in quotes and act like we said such stuff makes you look childish in addition to your previous problems making a coherent argument.

 

Right back at you.

 

I'm sure you consider yourself an masterful debater and that your arguments are solid and that it's always the other guy that makes all those fallacies and mistakes. Well, you're wrong. You are doing every single thing you accuse me of.

 

 

 

 we never claimed that israel were an egalitarian state where arabs and jews were getting equal protection. that ain't the case and we ain't pretending it is. your cartoon ignores the reality that the arabs is not gonna treat the jews any more more fair if they has a majority. the UN partition plan were not authored by idiots-- they recognized throwing the jews and arabs together were not a feasible solution back in 1947-48. cartoon suggests letting arabs back into occupied territories so that jews in israel is outnumbered and outflanked by a hostile population that when given the opportunity has elected organizations such as hamas. brilliant freaking plan.

 

False equalency.

That is not the reason Hamas was elected.

 

 

 

 

the israelis haven't be serious 'bout peace since 2001.  they ain't blameless, but nobody in this sad drama is blameless. everybody has blood on their hands. pretending like arabs or jews is just victims is not helpful.  to be fair to you, is not as if you is alone in your myopic view o' israel. the issue of arabs, jews and the british mandate territories is so polarizing that few folks can discuss rationally.

 

And you assume you're one of those rational folks and I'm not?

Pray tell, when did I ever say the other side was blemeless?

 

 

 

 

"It's not like they can invade Israel and fight on their territory."

 

actually, they could. they would lose, but they could do so.

 

Which is why they don't.

[Mor]

Latest news: Hamas asks for 4 reasonable things; [...] Something you might call a bare civilized minimum.

Its called spinology in action. Hamas trying to justify initiating this yet another round of violence in Gaza and its tactics**. This whole situation with Hamas, started after their take over of Gaza and break away from Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Followed their refusal to honor their Peace agreements, renounce violence and recognize their partners, which is something that the international community called a bare minimum for any prospect of negotiations and any chance of peace and coexistence in the region. Since then practicing the "Democracy of the Guns" for the last seven years, using those tactics.

 

So while I am sympathetic to the Palestinian cause of self determination to establish a country in the West Banks and Gaza, I have no qualms about Hamas and its terror routine, its actions and policies not only set a Gaza blaze time after time, but build walls of divide and hatred among the two people that no paper will be able to bridge.

 

** the indiscriminate targeting of Israel's civilian population centers, while at the same time its deliberate use of its own civilians as human shields.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Well, not that the other side is completely clean of that (burning Gaza and stoking hatred), IDF isn't a force of nature.  Do wonder what the end point of this can be, or for that matter what it will be for this current round of violence.

[Gromnir]

"I'm sure you consider yourself an masterful debater and that your arguments are solid and that it's always the other guy that makes all those fallacies and mistakes. Well, you're wrong. You are doing every single thing you accuse me of."

 

you realize that simply saying that doesn't make it true, yes?

 

"False equalency.

That is not the reason Hamas was elected."

 

have no idea what false equalency is 'posed to mean, but we already posted links to hamas creation and their charter and such. 

 

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

 

(please, no beavis & butthead responses to "erect")

 

"The Islamic  Resistance  Movement  is  a  distinguished  Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and  whose  way  of  life  is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah  over  every  inch  of Palestine."

 

"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam."

 

this is all from hamas charter.

 

regardless, you is confused on the point. we observed that the cartoon offers a completely implausible solution, a solution that were as untenable back in 1947 as it is today. neither jew nor arab should be trusted to protect the human rights and civil liberties o' the other group. respond with "false equalency" is meaningless and ignores the fact that hamas is even more overt about their desire to exterminate israel/jews than were the arabs back when unscop were crafting a partition plan. duh.

 

"Pray tell, when did I ever say the other side was blemeless?"

 

*chuckle*

 

you started with the nonsense about disproportionate casualties giving the arab in gaza the moral high ground and your cartoon clear show the palestinians as the victims in this scenario. you is one o' the myopic folks who helps fuel this entire cycle o' nonsense. 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66123-israel-vs-palestine/?p=1466327

 

that post by you is our favorite as it seems to ignore that the israelis has now been in israel for more than a couple generations, which according to your own busted logic would give them the right to israel. and the majority o' the "other people' land" that the jews were given were British lands... y'know, as it were the british mandate. most o' the rest o' the land they got were land that they bought from brits and arabs. 

 

 

'Which is why they don't.'

 

so? that is not any kinda a rationale. hamas started a fight they cannot win and they choose to fight it in the streets of gaza. we has noted earlier in this thread that from a tactical perspective, fighting in gaza makes sense for hamas, but what is the point of starting a fight you cannot win, a fight that necessarily will result in many civilian casualties? again, even if you look at the tactics and find them reasonable (fighting in the most densely populated place on earth,) strategically it is a wacky battle to choose... and the fact remains that the battleground were chosen by hamas. civilian casualties is as much the responsibility o' hamas as they chose the fight and its location. 

 

the only two purposes we can see for hamas starting a no-win fight with the idf is as follows:

 

1) urban warfare is extremely unfavorable to an attacker.

 

hamas is weak. they has no support from syria or egypt or even the fatah. their supply from iran is largely gone and their support in gaza had waned.  hamas were weak and getting weaker. if they wanted to hurt israel, they had to do sooner rather than later, 'cause they were slowly bleeding out as an organization.

 

2) they were hoping to win the cease-fire, if not the battle.

 

hamas can't win a battle with the idf, and there is nothing particularly noble about starting a bloody conflict that will get your own people killed if you has no chance o' success. nevertheless, hamas were aware that as civilian body count increased, the pressure on israel to agree to a cease-fire would also increase. the Only leverage hamas has in a possible cease-fire scenario is civilian body count, so they start a fight that will produce many sympathetic bodies. they tell gazans not to evacuate and they fire missiles from homes, and holy places and schools and they ride around in ambulances n' such. international sympathy would eventually bring about a cease-fire, and civilian body count would give hamas clout it has been sorely lacking. perhaps a cease-fire could strengthen hamas. but again, they need a cease-fire. to get a cease-fire, hamas needed a conflict. to get leverage in the cease-fire they needed bodies... lots o' bodies. well-played?

 

or perhaps hamas simply didn't care about civilians and they is simply acting according to their charter. 

 

in any event, the larger palestinain issues is actual somewhat irrelevant in the present conflict. this is not israel v. palestinian arabs. it sure as hell ain't israel v. the arab world as has so often been the case. hamas is almost entirely alone. that is a point worth considering. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118828/israel-palestine-war-army-knew-beforehand-gaza-was-crisis

 

is another worthwhile read.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

you keep chasing your tail on this one. either you didn't read before or you ain't reading now, but either way you reaffirm our contention 'bout you being obtuse willful or accidental.  thanks.

 

Lol, and again I am highly amused.

 

Rote repetition of incorrect or sophist, self defining circular 'facts' is the height of obtuseness. There's a reason why no actual statistician anywhere will define areas merely on local majority but on other factors, and it is because it is literally self fulfilling- you're selecting specifically to prove your contention and excluding anything that doesn't. Want to prove bits of Latvia or Estonia or Ukraine should be Russian, use that method, want to prove that any country should be partitioned along ethnoreligious lines use that method, want to prove that the Armenian family down the road is a local majority, use that method. Yes, I know I've said that before, but it bears repeating.

 

That you then try and add in other factors is actually irrelevant, but even more indicative. The Arabs still owned more of the Negev than the Jewish population did, that the British didn't accept native title (equivalent, at that time, except as related to British citizens in Britain) is also irrelevant since even you admit that the habitual owners and main population were Bedouin Arabs. You work back from your belief that partition was good and Jews were a majority, picking the factors and methods that support that, and that's all you've got. It's actually as bad as "I live in California, I know earthquakes" in terms of rigour and statistical validity.

[Gromnir]

 

you keep chasing your tail on this one. either you didn't read before or you ain't reading now, but either way you reaffirm our contention 'bout you being obtuse willful or accidental.  thanks.

 

Lol, and again I am highly amused.

 

(nonsensical tangent)

soooo, is no longer that Gromnir were inconsistent on the issue but rather that the whole damn issue is irrelevant and the baltic states got screwed... somehow. and armenia. or is it that russia got screwed? *shrug*  is relevant as is imaginary quotes.

 

...

 

am not even gonna respond to nonsense about the entire negev desert belonging to the relative handful o' bedouins. is a nice new tangent, but considering Gromnir has been the only one lamenting their plight under unscop til now, we is amused.

 

and again, for at least the 6th time, there never were any partition. is mind blowing that you kids don't seem to get that point.

 

you sure you don't need a time out, 'cause this is getting kind sad?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 25, 2014 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"For six days in early June, Hamas gunmen physically forced the closure of all the banks in the Gaza Strip, due to a dispute over salaries with the West Bank–based Palestinian Authority."

 

Gotta love Hamas and their supporters who claims Hamas just wants lvoe, happiness, and puppies. Hamas wants power. And, they will murder ANYONE - jewish, Christian, Isreali, Arab, Muslim, or Palestinian. They are evil to the core. They are what those religious extremists in the US would be if they actually had power.

 

Hamas doesn't give a crap about Palestine or Palestinians. That's a FACT.

 

\The fact that Palestinians actually voted for them just shows that people are stupid everywhere and will get suckered by scumbags who  yell the right things while doing everything but that. Does Hamas care that isreal has killed Palestinians? No. They do not.

 

\Isreal is far from perfect. Some of their targets seem iffy to me but anyone defending Hamas really need to learn what Hamas is about. Hamas knows that with peace they would cease to exist since their entire purpose is to destroy an entire country, religion, and people. If they succeed? then what? They'll start targeting fellow Palestinians even more if they have a different faith than Hamas.

 

Palestinians deserve to live in peace but they never will as long as Hamas is allowed to control them.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

 

 

Hamas doesn't give a crap about Palestine or Palestinians. That's a FACT.

 

 

there is some truth to that, but since arafat gave ehud barak and bill clinton the proverbial middle finger in 2000 and then kicked off the second intifada with a wave o' suicide bombings, israel has been more than cautious about finding peaceful solutions. is possible that israel gave up on peace with the palestinians after 2000. the fact that hamas came to power is arguably (again, we says arguably) as much israeli fault as arab. by 2006, the palestinians in gaza were not only having learned the lessons that terroism works, but they also were convinced (and perhaps with some validity) that israel weren't looking for peace with arabs no more either. given such realities, the fact that hamas came to power is hardly surprising. 

 

"However, Barak’s decision to try and end the conflict with the Palestinians in one stroke at the Camp David conference in July 2000 was even more problematic. Barak offered Yasir Arafat an independent state in Gaza, almost all of the West Bank and parts of Jerusalem, terms that most Israelis thought too generous. When Arafat rejected the offer, Barak sweetened it the following January in Taba only to get the same response. By then, Arafat had answered what he and the Palestinians thought was Barak’s weakness by launching a terrorist war of attrition known as the second intifada.

 

"Though 12 years later many American Jews and most of the Washington foreign policy establishment still haven’t absorbed the lessons of this debacle, the overwhelming majority of Israelis drew conclusions about the Palestinians from these events that continue to shape Israel’s political future.

 

"Barak taught the Palestinians to think that terrorism will cause Israel to back down and retreat, leading them to think that more violence and intransigence rather than moderation and negotiation will get them what they want. At the same time, he taught Israelis that retreats like his Lebanon bug-out and the Gaza withdrawal it inspired, as well as the concessions that he made at Camp David, only lead to more sorrow for the country. Almost single-handedly (though it must be conceded that he couldn’t have done it without Arafat and his successor Mahmoud Abbas), Barak inculcated in the Israeli public the understanding that they have no partner for peace and that the intractable conflict can only be managed rather than solved."

 

in any event, the quoted material above is an oft-repeated perspective 'pon the failed 2000 camp david peace negotiations. true or not don't matter anymore. folks believe. the israelis believe the arabs in the west bank and gaza don't genuine want peace, and the arabs believe that the best way to wring concessions from israel is through violence and dead bodies. as such, am not seeing any genuine solutions, at least not til there is a perspective sea change amongst both peoples living in the lands o' the former british mandate. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TrashMan]

 

you realize that simply saying that doesn't make it true, yes?

 

The same goes for you.

 

 

have no idea what false equalency is 'posed to mean, but we already posted links to hamas creation and their charter and such.

 

IT means you assume that Hamas was elected and exists because arabs and jews are in the same areas. Which is redicolous. The reasons for the conflict

 are more complex and more dep-seated than just that.

Just just handwave away the notion of peaceful integration under the pretense that jews and arabs cannot coexist it arab are a majority.

 

 

 

regardless, you is confused on the point. we observed that the cartoon offers a completely implausible solution, a solution that were as untenable back in 1947 as it is today. neither jew nor arab should be trusted to protect the human rights and civil liberties o' the other group. respond with "false equalency" is meaningless and ignores the fact that hamas is even more overt about their desire to exterminate israel/jews than were the arabs back when unscop were crafting a partition plan. duh.

 

And here again we have Hamas = palestinians.

Since when do I trust Hamas?

 

 

you started with the nonsense about disproportionate casualties giving the arab in gaza the moral high ground and your cartoon clear show the palestinians as the victims in this scenario. you is one o' the myopic folks who helps fuel this entire cycle o' nonsense.

 

And they DO have the moral high-ground.

Arabs in gaza suffer greately, far more than israelis.

 

[TrashMan]

Hamas doesn't give a crap about Palestine or Palestinians. That's a FACT.

 

 

No, it's not.

Probably close to the truth, but claiming to know other peoples thought processes can never be called a fact.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hamas is a bunch of d**** and I'm all for getting rid of them. But Palestinian people will never have peace (as in, real peace with equal right and all that jazz) with Israel as it is now.

 

If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east).

[Walsingham]

If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

 

 

And after you'd lived there for twenty years?

[Meshugger]

 

 

If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east).

 

 

You do realize that this sentiment do not offer anything else than further despair, death, carnage and will not help the situation for anyone, do you not? Because you will have to commit ever more horrible acts for that to happen.

 

Violence begets violence and all that.

[Malcador]

Seems majority of them over there buy into it though.

[Volourn]

"If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east)."

 

And, that's the problem. Your goal (as is Hamas) is to destroy people not save people. You should help Hamas the enxt time they throw Palestinians off the roof of a building because they disagree with them.

[TrashMan]

 

 

If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east).

 

 

You do realize that this sentiment do not offer anything else than further despair, death, carnage and will not help the situation for anyone, do you not? Because you will have to commit ever more horrible acts for that to happen.

 

Violence begets violence and all that.

 

 

And your solution is what?

For palestinans to accept Isreals "mercy"? To live in the worst areas with more rights and territory taken away each day?

Just for a hope of someday things getting better?

 

It's in Israels interest to keep palesinians territories an unstable, undeveloped place.

As long as the balance of power is like it is, nothing will change.

 

History is written by the victors. Power is power. Laws are irrelevant (as clearly seen in Israels example), as they will be ignored by the powers that be whenever it suits them.

If the US dropped Israel like a hot potato, if the palestinians were equal in power...then maybe some real negotiations could be had among the saner heads.

 

As to what and how.... I have no idea. Israelis cannot well abandon Israel after living there for 60 years. Yet the trust is that the creation of Isreal created a crapton of refugees and those people WERE wronged. You cannot get back to how it was before...but some kind of reparations have to be made.

[TrashMan]

"If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east)."

 

And, that's the problem. Your goal (as is Hamas) is to destroy people not save people. You should help Hamas the enxt time they throw Palestinians off the roof of a building because they disagree with them.

 

And Israel is saving exactly whom with land grabs and bombardments?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

If I lived in Gaza, I'd want nothing more than to bomb Israel to non-existence.

Heck ,I don't live in Gaza and I'd still want to dismantle that faschist little state (and most of the middle east).

 

 

You do realize that this sentiment do not offer anything else than further despair, death, carnage and will not help the situation for anyone, do you not? Because you will have to commit ever more horrible acts for that to happen.

 

Violence begets violence and all that.

 

 

And your solution is what?

For palestinans to accept Isreals "mercy"? To live in the worst areas with more rights and territory taken away each day?

Just for a hope of someday things getting better?

 

It's in Israels interest to keep palesinians territories an unstable, undeveloped place.

As long as the balance of power is like it is, nothing will change.

 

History is written by the victors. Power is power. Laws are irrelevant (as clearly seen in Israels example), as they will be ignored by the powers that be whenever it suits them.

If the US dropped Israel like a hot potato, if the palestinians were equal in power...then maybe some real negotiations could be had among the saner heads.

 

As to what and how.... I have no idea. Israelis cannot well abandon Israel after living there for 60 years. Yet the trust is that the creation of Isreal created a crapton of refugees and those people WERE wronged. You cannot get back to how it was before...but some kind of reparations have to be made.

 

 

If i knew of a solution, you would see my face in the headlines with a Nobel Peace prize in my hand. No, i do not know of any solution nor do i pretend to know of one. What i do know is that it is completely unacceptable to cheer for either side to win through arms, since that would be a bloodbath and a rule of tyranny that only beasts, not men, wish to accomplish.