Israel vs Palestine

[Gfted1]

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona.

 

Interesting strategy. I wonder why they never tried it before now.

[Malcador]

Right.. this case aside, have you noticed that overall Palestinians and generally Muslims tend to be featured in a lot of world news. Why do you think is that, anger issues?

Tough task trying to characterize an entire religion or ethnicity, but I guess you've hurdled that mountain.

[Gorgon]

The rockets are basically terror weapons, not capable of hitting anything except by chance.

[Mor]

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona.

 

Interesting strategy. I wonder why they never tried it before now.

Its nothing but PR, without Iranian import, their home made rockets are very primitive non precise weapons, which is why they are shooting them at big targets like cities(and still miss some times). Also a quick google map, shows that the nuclear reactor is after Ber Sheva, so it would be be protected by their Iron dome anti-missile defense(which is pretty good), plus most certainly the reactor have short rage point defense system and anything vital would be underground. (Hamas rockers can blow a standard apartment house, not penetrate military grade defense bunkers)

 

 

Right.. this case aside, have you noticed that overall Palestinians and generally Muslims tend to be featured in a lot of world news. Why do you think is that, anger issues?

Tough task trying to characterize an entire religion or ethnicity, but I guess you've hurdled that mountain.

 

Now who got his panties in a twist, also:

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

The rockets are basically terror weapons, not capable of hitting anything except by chance.

 

Pretty much.  Did prompt them to invest in Iron Dome - though not too sure how cost effective that is as a system, as someone brought up on a previous incarnation of this thread.

 

Interesting video but nothing really new to me (members here have brought that up on...several incarnations of this thread and terrorism ones).  It is similar to what you hear with regards to other issues - men and sexist behaviour is one that is probably more timely.  Does make me think of rather amusing sights of ones declaring their loyalty so loudly to avoid suspicion though, heh.   Is a rather iffy refutation, though, but what can one expect.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

The rockets are basically terror weapons, not capable of hitting anything except by chance.

 

To be fair  the effectiveness of the rockets isn't really the point. Do you know one country in the world , just one country, that would accept rockets been fired constantly into there sovereign territory? A direct hit by a rocket would kill someone and there have been fatalities in the past

 

The rocket attacks are provocative and Hamas knows there has to be some sort of response. IMO this is part of there strategy and I have to ask how much they really care about there fellow Palestinians knowing there will be a response from Israel?

[Volourn]

Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians as they have no problem murdering Palestinians but that little tidbit is not discussed and usually poopoohjed because  it's not as cool as  bashing Jews killing Palestinians just like nobody likes to talka bout Palestinians killing Jews. Not to mention how all the Muslim country neighbours treat Palestinians horribly.

[Rostere]

Just read this, in an unrelated context:

 

 

The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was "given" by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East.

 

Quote from Bertrand Russell.

[Malcador]

Funny that either side don't mind bodies accumulating for propaganda and PR reasons. So this ends with a brief invasion I guess?

[Zoraptor]

Well comparing Mor to arguably the most vacuous and insincere person on these forums

Oh Bruce you're too modest, nobody could claim your crown!

 

one reason why we ain't getting much reaction here in the US regarding the florida kid (am not thinking irony means what you think it does) is 'cause the kid were part o' a group o' protesters that were hurling rocks at the police with slings. 3 Israelis got murdered in the middle east and there were zero coverage here until a palestinian kid is similarly murdered, possibly in retaliation. you know for certain that jewish nationalists responded?

So as well as an amateur earthquake expert who doesn't know the difference between Mercalli and magnitude moment, you're a lawyer who doesn't know presumption of innocence? (Un)Fortunately it's actually irrelevant, quite apart from said presumption of innocence which tellingly you give to the settlers but not the youth, the US kid not only strenuously denies any involvement but is yet to be charged with any crime and that despite supposedly, per the Israeli propaganda, throwing molotovs and being armed with knives. OTOH, some of the Jewish Nationalists have confessed, and even re-enacted beating the kid and setting him on fire while still alive.

 

Only open question is whether some of those who confessed were my relatives.

 

* Iran has its hand in this conflict in the middle east as well. Who would have knows that the knew Iranian government is no diffrent then its predecessor, except in its optics *rolleyes*

 

Hamas and Iran are actively fighting each other in Syria, one of the reasons why Hamas had to make their deal with the PLO was due to them losing all their friends- except, of course, the ones no one talks about in polite circles, those in Riyadh, Manama, Dubai and Qatar. They're fighting Assad and Iran in Syria and the new army gauleiter in Egypt hates Hamas more than the old air force gauleiter ever did, as they're too similar to the Muslim Brotherhood people he's busy getting his appointed judiciary to liquidate en masse and apparently were running Egypt from Gaza to boot.

[Gromnir]

"A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East."

 

roll back calender to 1947 and such statements could be taken to be advocating the formation o' a jewish state in the middle east.  heck, can go back to balfour in 1917 and it rings just as true. 'course the English realized they couldn't appease everybody, so they just kinda gave up, the UN had some crazy cartography skills when they initial drew up new boarders, but at the end o' the british mandate, egypt, jordan, iraq, syria, lebannon, the palestinian irregular army and saudis and pakistanis and seeming folks from entire middle-east and beyond, attacked the new jewish settlements.

 

...

 

not even a single day lapsed before the arab and islamic world came rushing in to destroy new state o' israel. 

 

as for the historical nonsense as to who took whose land first? who cares? romans (italians?), turks , philistines, assyrians, babylonians, jews and arabs has all planted their freaking metaphorical flags on that contentious little bit o' dirt and sand. it were the brits who were running the madhouse most recent before the UN did their king solomon act (*snicker*) and they had been doing so since after the first world war. the turks had been in charge since the 1500s? am pretty sure that the ottoman empire did not consider itself palestinian. palestine? palestinians? ha! nonsense. so-called palestinians and jews were both living in the british mandate and killing each other and the brits for decades. were an absolute Charle Fox situation. 

 

as noted above, we ain't a huge supporter o' israel, but the whole bs about how israel came in and disposed the existing state o' palestine and created thousands o' refugees or somesuch similar insanity is absolute bunk. the last time the palestinians had full control o' territory in what is now is israel, they and the rest o' the arab world attacked with the goal o' exterminating the new jewish state. during the british mandate, the zionists didn't believe england were moving fast enough on its promises to create a jewish state. the zionists resorted to some rather brutal acts o' terrorism, presumably to speed things up a bit. there ain't no dew-eyed innocents in this conflict. go back far enough and everybody has screwed everybody many times over. so what? 

 

bah.

 

 

"So as well as an amateur earthquake expert who doesn't know the difference between Mercalli and magnitude moment, you're a lawyer who doesn't know presumption of innocence? (Un)Fortunately it's actually irrelevant, quite apart from said presumption of innocence which tellingly you give to the settlers but not the youth, the US kid not only strenuously denies any involvement but is yet to be charged with any crime and that despite supposedly, per the Israeli propaganda, throwing molotovs and being armed with knives. OTOH, some of the Jewish Nationalists haou ve confessed, and even re-enacted beating the kid and setting him on fire while still alive."

 

wow going serious necro on us with earthquakes. is that the only time you felt like you made a point o' some kind?  sadness and condolences.

 

"per the Israeli propaganda"

 

that is funny. is propoganda when cnn reports or bbc? okie dokie. 

 

regardless, as to other points, am not talking 'bout a criminal law standard are we? public opinion has never been held to the same standard, nor should it. presumption o' innocence in Amercian criminal law exists with full recognition that it "is better that twelve guilty men should go free rather than that one innocent man should suffer." o j simpson were found not guilty. thinks every (or even most Americans) believed that oj were innocent is a complete different issue. criminal guilt needs must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt for the State to deprive a person o' their liberty, but that has never been the standard necessary to hold persons accountable to public opinion. o j didn't go to jail, but he sure as hell weren't doing hertz commercials after the trial, and no court could force advertisers and sports networks to embrace oj. duh. stick to plate tectonics or whatever, 'cause you is so far outta your depths here it is laughable.

 

also, we never actual said that we were certain that the kid did throw rocks, did we? we said he is too stupid to live. put yourself in a position such as he did, and you is asking for trouble. he got trouble.  if we were his lawyer, we would do our utmost for our client. we has advocated for folks we loathe. gang members and religious cultists and french people. *shudder* personal opinion o' clients does not reduce our diligence. if we were on a jury in which dumb kid were facing criminal charges for attacking police, we could do so objectively. fact that we think he is an idiot who put himself in a bad situation does not mean we can't be an objective finder o' fact where standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. find criminal liability for attacks on police is a far different thing than deciding as a person, and seeming as the American public as a whole, that the florida kid were dumb and not deserving o' much sympathy.

 

thank goodness we ain't forced to give zor a beyond reasonable doubt standard before we decide he is too stupid to live based on his inane posts. what a truly nightmarish world that would be.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps being an a-hole or an idiot is Not crimes. being an a-hole or an idiot will result in lack o' sympathy, but it won't get you convicted o' crimes in the US. thank goodness. is likewise no criminal standard o' arseholeishness (we invented a word) or idiocy. count yourself lucky.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Gromnir

[Rostere]

US media, why am I not surprised. Watch this between 0:00 and 0:20. Notice anything fishy?

 

EDIT: I wonder how long it's going to take for Israel to kick in with the white phosphorus this time. It's like they are reading out of textbook of cartoon villainy at times. "Hey guys, let's enact Spec Ops: The Line Gaza DLC"

Edited July 9, 2014 by Rostere

[Gromnir]

US media, why am I not surprised. Watch this between 0:00 and 0:20. Notice anything fishy?

 

 

fishy? yes. am glad you noticed. diane sawyer clearly doesn't know how to accessorize. look at those earnings. orange? with her coloring? ghastly. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Mor]

 

* Iran has its hand in this conflict in the middle east as well. Who would have knows that the knew Iranian government is no diffrent then its predecessor, except in its optics *rolleyes*

 

Hamas and Iran are actively fighting each other in Syria, one of the reasons why Hamas had to make their deal with the PLO was due to them losing all their friends- except, of course, the ones no one talks about in polite circles, those in Riyadh, Manama, Dubai and Qatar. They're fighting Assad and Iran in Syria and the new army gauleiter in Egypt hates Hamas more than the old air force gauleiter ever did, as they're too similar to the Muslim Brotherhood people he's busy getting his appointed judiciary to liquidate en masse and apparently were running Egypt from Gaza to boot.

 

Ok.. it is true to an extent, although outdated, exaggerated and certainly don't contradicts the Israeli assertion about their Iranian involvement in this conflict as well.

 

Sure the geopolitical situation in the wake of the Arb spring, was one of the thing that contributed to ward Hamas warmer disposition toward reconciliation with Fatah, but this affair between them has been going on and off for the past seven years, since Hamas armed coop in Gaza. As for Syria and active fighting with iran, Iran's lapdog Hizbullah has been "actively fighting" there, in comparison Hamas contribution is insignificant, mostly local embers who didn't had Iranian interests at heart, backed with rhetoric from the movements leadership.

 

 

Also your post give the sense that you think that Hamas is moving from a position of weakness, if that was the case I have yet to see proof of that. As part of their reconciliation, PLO agreed on steps to integrate Hamas, through PLO Hamas would gain international recognition as Palestinian representatives overall. They also wouldn't have to accept the international set principles to renounce violence, recognize Israel and the international agreements signed with Israel, which is the equivalent of taking a dump on the peace process, and thus will position Hamas as the only/lead in the Palestinian national struggle allowing them to take control of the PLO institutions from within. (its the exactly the same scheme that worked so well for Hamas in 2006) Meanwhile the PLO continued to avoid any comprise, taking unilateral actions, and seeking closer ties with Iran..

 

There far more geopolitical motives at play here that i wouldn't mention. Overall anyone who honestly concerned with ending the conflict and reaching peace between the two people( as appose to naive humanitarians or those with different agenda at heart) should be very very concerned by those events.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Don't think I've seen anyone say that Hamas is strong at this point. 18 months ago, maybe- potentially- when they had the MB in power in Egypt, but not now. There's even semi serious discussion about whether Israel should not escalate further because Hamas is so shaky, and what may replace them may be worse. As for the situation in Syria, Hamas was pretty influential among the palestinian population there, indeed one of the major battlegrounds has been the Yarmouk refugee camp- where Meshaal, the Hamas head used to be based.
 

that is funny. is propoganda when cnn reports or bbc? okie dokie.

Yes, actually it is. Journalists quoting an interested party's spin doesn't convert that propaganda to truth, it remains propaganda- indeed propaganda is almost impossible without repetition from the media since it requires dissemination of the information to its receptive and acritical targets. I'm a generous guy, so I'll help you out as to why*.

By default Khdeir is innocent, so him claiming to have been a bystander must be disproven. The beating accusation has close to incontrovertible video and physical evidence. In contrast, while the Israeli Police say he had a slingshot on him and was wearing a mask and was part of a group etc etc there's no evidence of that being true and he has not been charged where actual evidence as opposed to unsubstantiated accusations actually counts, ie in a court of law, despite, supposedly, being caught bang to rights. Until such time as he is charged it is propaganda- spreading of rumours to discredit another party- because the police got caught doing what is deeply embarrassing (but widely rumoured to be standard practice, indeed, relatively mild compared to some responses, Israel stated that those two were part of an active riot and that they had not used live fire prior to the video's release, so also have a recent history of using outright lies as a protective screen to brutality) and they want to blame the victim for being beaten senseless. Which is perfectly sensible from a PR point of view and happens all the time, but it is most definitively propaganda.

 

And really, 'X is too stupid to live' justifications are just so... ridiculous, because you can hammer that into any rhetorical tool you want. The three Israeli teenagers were too stupid to live, hitch hiking on the West Bank and getting into a vehicle with a stranger, knowing that a lot of palestinians on the WB hate them! 1080p rolleyes x100. She was asking for it, wearing that short skirt in that part of town. 1080p rolleyes x100. It's a fundamentally assinine and intrinsically cretinous construct designed to protect the argument's maker from having to defend their own preconceptions when they are challenged, nothing more.
 

thank goodness we ain't forced to give zor a beyond reasonable doubt standard before we decide he is too stupid to live based on his inane posts. what a truly nightmarish world that would be.

*Aye, 'tis ever a thankless task.

[Gromnir]

you made a mistake. man-up and admit it. the reason americans and Gromnir don't much care 'bout the florida kid is not 'cause we has convicted him o' a crime without due process o' law. the idiot put himself in a situation where something bad were obscenely likely to occur. the guy shows up at a riot where peopled with their heads wrapped in keffiyeh is using slings to launch fist-sized stones at israeli police, and mr. genius decided that he will peaceably join the demonstration with a keffiyeh obscuring his features whilst carrying a sling. given such circumstances is anybody surprised by what happened to the future rhodes scholar? no? that makes the kid an idiot. that makes it perfectly reasonable for Gromnir and other americans to shake our heads sadly, pray for his speedy recovery, and hope he has learned from his Brobdingnagian display o' poor judgement. and guess what? is NOT a court o' law, so each and every reader and viewer is the equivalent o' the finder o' fact when judging for themselves if the kid's story is believable. 

 

bring up innocent until proven guilty is the dumbest thing you has said in awhile, and that is saying a great deal. our best friend cheats on his wife with Two women at the same time. guess what, Gromnir is not bound by any kinda social covenant that requires us to prove Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that he were cheating and that his actions were stoopid before we is able to punch him in the short ribs, call him an idiot, and then buy him a beer as he considers his upcoming divorce. public opinion gets an even reduced standard than friendship, yes? our judgement o' the kid's stupidity does not deny him liberty or right to travel across state lines or any other such American values. heck, can you imagine how difficult it would be to fire bad employees if we had to resort to such nonsesne?  no kidding, this were monumental dumb o' you. 

 

as an aside, in case it were missed, we noted we thinks the israeli police acted excessive. is not as if the mind-boggling stoopidity o' the teen from florida lessens the what we see as an excess o' police force. nevertheless, the kid is not deserving o' sympathy... unless he actual is mentally deficient. is he?  given the circumstances it seems likely.

 

oh, and in the leaked video you can clear see his keffiyeh, and that video were released by sympathetic palistineans to show the evils o' the israeli police. so, wrong again as there clear is evidence. am not certain what you think is relevance o' the kid being charged or not charged. do you has access to the charging documents? do you know what pressures the US state department brought or did not bring? neither does Gromnir. we don't know and neither does you. don't care really.

 

as to your cnn and bbc response... HA! okie dokie.  

 

"The three Israeli teenagers were too stupid to live, hitch hiking on the West Bank and getting into a vehicle with a stranger, knowing that a lot of palestinians on the WB hate them!"

 

seems a bit different to us, but am suspecting there is some folks that would agree. the assumption that violence would result from walking along a highway at night strikes us as a bit more remote than the possibility o' there being violence at a riot, but hey, we is kinda funny that way.  (*snort*)  but perhaps you is correct and that is why we didn't hear much 'bout the murder o' three israelis until after the palestinians rioted. perhaps it were just chalked up as three israelis being in the wrong place at the wrong time in a part o' the world where this kinda crap happens all the time. regardless, whether you think it is possible to argue that the 3 israelis were acting foolish, it is clear to us, and to many Americans that showing up to a riot dressed in your keffiyeh and carrying a sling is asking for trouble.  

 

...

 

and sorry, but the notion that you could see florida's kids actions as anything other than foolish in the circumstances is just too much for us to believe. yeah, am getting you has chosen political sides in this nonsense, but fighting this point is just mind-boggling.

 

just for fun, ask Gradma Z for her pov. everybody can play at home. 

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jE2qRqEt7yU/TKhfIl3dClI/AAAAAAAAAEA/ElmM7uby6nw/s1600/peaceful+demostrator+oct+1.jpg

 

show linked picture above. tell Grandma Z that you is planning on heading out to a riot where folks will be outfitted like the guy above. you plan to be similarly costumed, but you won't carry a slingshot. the high point o' the demonstration will be when your fellow protesters, not you o' course, will hurl rocks at police.

 

now, how does grandma zor react? 

 

HA!

 

am not expecting zor to be honest, but no doubt other folks here can imagine the horror on granny's face as you explain you is gonna peacefully join a riot.  some o' us got insane grandmothers, but am suspecting that most is gonna be shocked, appalled and worried by your absolutely moronic display o' poor judgement. if your personal compass for foolishness is busted, perhaps you can ask grandma.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 10, 2014 by Gromnir

[Mor]

Don't think I've seen anyone say that Hamas is strong at this point. 18 months ago, maybe- potentially- when they had the MB in power in Egypt, but not now. There's even semi serious discussion about whether Israel should not escalate further because Hamas is so shaky, and what may replace them may be worse. As for the situation in Syria, Hamas was pretty influential among the palestinian population there, indeed one of the major battlegrounds has been the Yarmouk refugee camp- where Meshaal, the Hamas head used to be based.

:? Are you trying to prove to me that you are familiar with some aspects of the situation, because I fail to see where you are going with any of this.

 

You started with post concerning Iranian rockets (which has direct relates to the topic of armed conflict) trying to imply that its false, by saying that Hamas and Iran are actively fighting, as noted your info is outdated and exaggerated. Despite events in Syria, Hamas was and is Iran top strategic ally in the region, they already rekindled their arrangement and resumed funding. Here we seen rockets fired from Hamas Gaza that are beyond local manufacturing capabilities, same verity that has been previously sized in weapons shipment headed for Gaza.

 

As for Hamas strength, again CONTEXT! We aren't talking about Hamas absolute power, and the topic isn't Israel vs Hamas. Its Palestinians, and as noted they have been divided between Gaza and West bank for the past seven years, and one of the first brought up in this thread is their reconciliation effort. In this Hamas hasn't compromised on its previous positions, while PLO has. In a move which resemble the 2006 events, Hamas strength their position leveraging for more power, thus relatively winning. (also over all moderates loose power, the Religious fundamentalist gain it)

 

 

The only other thing you brought up here, is the suggestion that Israel should take Hamas and other Terrorist organization lack of restrain, and indiscriminate rocket fire over its civilian population as a matter of routine..

 

 

Interesting video but nothing really new to me (members here have brought that up on...several incarnations of this thread and terrorism ones).

If you are familiar with stats and arguments, why you bring up the obvious, riding a high horse, and getting your panties in a twist, while dancing a jig. I haven't seen you do that in Ukraine thread or anywhere else.. asking for PC, for PC sake doesn't do you service..

 

Fact is that Palestinian Rioting is a common occurrence, you might go as far as calling it a tradition, that either has been ignored by the Palestinian authorities, or in many case encouraged and/or participated by them. For as long a I can remember it always been the same, holiday/weekend/special-event pray, used for mobilizing the masses for the "tradition" riot. In this case I believe it was the Ramadan holiday, and i'd sell a kidney if this whole thing didn't played out exactly like that, with Israel riot police waiting for the usual rock barrage, and the kid got caught in the usual riot dispersal means.

 

As for your retard PC disclaimer, obviously this not something inherently about that ethnicity\religion, but the good ol' poverty, religion, poor education\access to information combination, that in the middle Eastern landscape correlate to the bigotry and violence we see so often in stats.

[Gorgon]

 

The rockets are basically terror weapons, not capable of hitting anything except by chance.

 

To be fair  the effectiveness of the rockets isn't really the point. Do you know one country in the world , just one country, that would accept rockets been fired constantly into there sovereign territory? A direct hit by a rocket would kill someone and ther

e have been fatalities in the past

 

The rocket attacks are provocative and Hamas knows there has to be some sort of response. IMO this is part of there strategy and I have to ask how much they really care about there fellow Palestinians knowing there will be a response from Israel?

They care about their 'cause' obviously. Quite willing to risk another Israli incursion to avoid looking weak, which is what they are.  It's pointless though, same old story. We have been here many times before. 

[Mor]

I don't know why you all over reacting, I had todo that dive-by, otherwise I would appear weak to my hommies..

[Malcador]

Okay you have a pretty ludicrous bar for outrage if my answering your question seemed like getting my panties in a twist there. Not sure what you would expect as well the question is rather silly - consider the variables in any one person or sets of persons in an event that isn't in a vacuum.

 

Wonder if I can bet on when the ground invasion begins

[TrashMan]

Trash, You can think what you want about Israel effort, but you can't ignore that most peace initiative\accord\etc starts with Israel making some kind of good faith gestures, to bring the petulant Palestinians leadership to the table. Just as most of those efforts, end with another wave of Palestinians violence...

 

 

Yes, Palestinaian cruelty is why so far the number of dead and injured on both sides is so euqal.

Oh, wait, no it's not.

[Mor]

The rocket attacks are provocative and Hamas knows there has to be some sort of response. IMO this is part of there strategy and I have to ask how much they really care about there fellow Palestinians knowing there will be a response from Israel?

Hamas has never been shy from exploiting their dead. As for strategy, I think that hamas made big mistake intiating this conflict at this point. Even though they are weaker then they were few years back:

 

 

Hamas support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt cost them dearly, after years of lip-service Egypt is now actively work against ~them. With the border closed, smuggling became a challenge reducing their military capabilities ,and mostly hitting their pocket, during the same period Iran cut its support, it was keenly felt

 

p.s. They basically they found themselves in the same spot as West Bank did few years back (a much quieter enclave and why Israel will never agree to repeat Gaza fiasco there, giving them reign of the border, unless Palestinians show REAL progress in terms of security)

 

 

However, their position in the Palestinian arena is still strong, as I noted before they could only profit from the reconciliation.

 

 

Last I checked, Hamas got financial aid from Quater. Would be integrated into PLO gaining power and recognition. Didn't have to renounce violence, recognize Israel and the international agreements signed with Israel. Cooperation with Israel will be suspended and with peace process running aground, Hamas would be positioned as the only "strong" resistance that get "results" and pretty much repeat the 2006 election scheme.

 

 

Basically this deal is Hamas wet dream, and why now that they started it, Israel will not let go and keep up the pressure, to further weakening Hamas position in the Palestinian arena. IMO Without it, any prospect of peace is out of the window and they will be treading blows for few more rounds..

 

So why would Hamas compromise this?! what to reignite the cycle of radicalism and replenish its ranks - i don't but it. I see no reason what so ever for them to attack NOW. Unless:

• 1. This "too good to be true" reconciliation deal is just yet another deal that wont come through, or actually a delaying tactic, meant to weaken Hamas.
• 2. They took a big gamble with people, that some unfortunate accident will happen during Israel attack, they could surely leverage bodies into support for unity, and seen as "fighting" for their people. That or some Naive international player that haven't learned anything since the arab spring, deciding to make the mistake and intervene, alienate the Israelis and scoring the above.

As for the Israelis, I admire their persistence, but warning and justification don't sell news, when the media bloodhound let loose. They are locked tight in catch22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

 

Yes, Palestinaian cruelty is why so far the number of dead and injured on both sides is so euqal.

Oh, wait, no it's not.

As long as you agree with initial point, that as far as good faith efforts goes, it has been pretty much one way street, with Israel doing all the heavy lifting. I am fine.

 

As for the rest, going by your logic: the police is cruel to criminals, because in their encounters the number of dead cops is far far lower then dead criminal also:

 

 

[..]In this case its the same wearying party line from previous escalations, which can be summed as: 'more people are dying in Gaza, then in Israel' so Israel's response is an 'aggressive overreaction'. Which translates to 'we support Hamas and the other terror groups terrorism', because lets be honest, Israel low death count isn't due to Palestinian lack of trying, and Israels effective anti-missile defense system, doesn't justify Hamas and other terror groups indiscriminate Rocket (and mortar) fire against Israeli civilian population every time they can't restrain themselves.

 

[...]

 

Edited July 10, 2014 by Mor

[Gorgon]

 

Trash, You can think what you want about Israel effort, but you can't ignore that most peace initiative\accord\etc starts with Israel making some kind of good faith gestures, to bring the petulant Palestinians leadership to the table. Just as most of those efforts, end with another wave of Palestinians violence...

 

 

Yes, Palestinaian cruelty is why so far the number of dead and injured on both sides is so euqal.

Oh, wait, no it's not.

 

Isreal quite often has to cave to international pressure to get the peace process back on track, these overtures are, arguably, started with the knowledge that it will come to nothing. Concessions are not in Israel's interest, they already have what they want. The Palestineans don't have a moderate leader capable of pressing the point. 

[Gromnir]

 

Trash, You can think what you want about Israel effort, but you can't ignore that most peace initiative\accord\etc starts with Israel making some kind of good faith gestures, to bring the petulant Palestinians leadership to the table. Just as most of those efforts, end with another wave of Palestinians violence...

 

 

Yes, Palestinaian cruelty is why so far the number of dead and injured on both sides is so euqal.

Oh, wait, no it's not.

 

what a novel concept. we congratulate you, sir. moral superiority as measured by an absolute and objective standard: body count. we will look forward to reading your thesis when you publish. is your system simple or complex? what we mean is, is one corpse equal to any other corpse? women is gonna be problematic. could potential open a can o' worms if you figure relative misogyny into some kinda function for determining values o' women dead. maybe just ignore that, yes? do you distinguish combatant victims from civilian? perhaps children count more? less? a sizable number o' palestinian dead has been the result o' palestinian infighting. on which side o' the scales o' justice does their bodies get thrown? regardless, is fascinating. it had never occurred to Gromnir that we could simple total up the bodies o' dead from the belligerents in a conflict to determine who gets moral high ground. what terrible irony-- the only way to win battle o' Justice is to be making sure your people suffer more casualties.  nevertheless, we applaud your verve.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 10, 2014 by Gromnir

[Rostere]

Tally of the conflict so far: 0 Israelis killed. 9 (!) treated for light injuries. 88 Palestinians killed, and about 600 wounded. Meanwhile only one Hamas commander has been killed. The Hamas leadership have hidden themselves underground. Why does Israel keep bombing? 9 people killed as they were bombed sitting on a beach café watching the World Cup. A family was killed after the Israeli army phoned them and told them their house would be demolished. A first missile hit a structure outside the house and the family went inside again, only to be killed by a second missile shortly afterwards. Why were they forced to bomb the house in the first place?

 

This is pure and sheer indiscriminate terror bombing. When you justify that, you should pretty much expect your opponents to respond with this or this. Between the Israeli army and Hamas, there is no one trying to hold the moral high ground. The game is just about killing as many as you can while evading international sanctions. Israel does it to beef up home opinion and gain right-wing credentials for the sitting government. Hamas does it... yeah, I don't even know. It's probably just a mind-numbingly stupid compulsive psychological reflex. I don't think anyone has thought longer than "Allahu akhbar".

 

Other ****ed-up news from the Israel/Palestine region: Ben Gurion detention guard tells humanitarian worker she is being deported for ‘trying to change Israel and make it free of racism’, Death threats follow minister’s condolence call to family of burned teen

 

"A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East."

 

roll back calender to 1947 and such statements could be taken to be advocating the formation o' a jewish state in the middle east.  heck, can go back to balfour in 1917 and it rings just as true. 'course the English realized they couldn't appease everybody, so they just kinda gave up, the UN had some crazy cartography skills when they initial drew up new boarders, but at the end o' the british mandate, egypt, jordan, iraq, syria, lebannon, the palestinian irregular army and saudis and pakistanis and seeming folks from entire middle-east and beyond, attacked the new jewish settlements.

 

Wrong. There is no justification for creating a "homeland" for the Jewish people or any other people on land which is inhabited by other people. The only state you can create is a secular state which treats all citizens equally. What if you should perhaps donate Texas to the Kurds, since they have no nation? What if China (Britain) occupied the US (Transjordan) and "kindly donated" (the Balfour declaration) Texas to the Muslim Uyghurs (Jews). Should you expect no violent resistance? Would the people of Texas lie flat on their bellies while their houses are demolished to make place for Muslim-only settlements? For Jewish settlements? Can we agree that the idea of an ethnocratic state is detestable?

 

I don't believe in any god, but if I did, the ultimate Old Testament-style poetic justice would be if the Americans and the British got their land invaded by illegal immigrants who change their culture and balance of politics.

 

Israel, as a Jewish ethnocracy, is a nation whose existence hinges on them not letting back millions of refugees who were ethnically cleansed, and which is continuously illegally seizing land in the West Bank to expand it's territory for religious and economic reasons. There is no way anyone can justify that. The only question is how you can stop this sick colonial experiment as quickly as possible while not hurting anyone.

 

Israel could at the very least stop current dispossession of Palestinians. They could also do everything they can to let as many as possible move back, within reason of course. Unfortunately, Israel is going further and further the other way for every day. There could have been a two-state solution in the early nineties, but now I doubt it.

 

 

US media, why am I not surprised. Watch this between 0:00 and 0:20. Notice anything fishy?

 

 

fishy? yes. am glad you noticed. diane sawyer clearly doesn't know how to accessorize. look at those earnings. orange? with her coloring? ghastly. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

For anyone who might actually be interested and not trolling like Gromnir here, the TV reporter is talking about "Israelis" while showing Gazans on a ruin (and by the way, there are no ruined landscapes like that in Israel...), and later a Muslim woman. The title is "[israel] Under Attack", but the videos at the beginning show Gaza being bombed. A mix out outright lies, and misleading pictures.