Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Mor]

You guys remind me the obama mania, only here its not about some cultural thing(first women will get the same), nor is it a passing thing, but cult personality that has been going for 15 years. I guess some people feel more powerful/cool/whatever when they lead by someone who perceived as such.

[Gorgon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQGRJN4Radk

That's really telling. Especially about the way western media, and anone not towing the line, is viewed.

 

I wonder if all press conferences start with poorly vailed threats like that. 

[Sarex]

That's really telling. Especially about the way western media, and anone not towing the line, is viewed.

 

I wonder if all press conferences start with poorly vailed threats like that. 

 

What threat? They are asked to report the truth, otherwise they are going to be bared from the conflict. I think that's a fair thing to ask. They shouldn't write opinionated articles that don't contain a shred of proof.

[Malcador]

What threat? They are asked to report the truth, otherwise they are going to be bared from the conflict. I think that's a fair thing to ask. They shouldn't write opinionated articles that don't contain a shred of proof.

Yeah, but when the guys asking that are armed....

[Gorgon]

The context is pretty clear. Write 'our truth' or get showed in the back of a van by balaklava clad gunmen.

[Sarex]

Armed or not, I doubt it makes a difference, besides they only threatened to revoke their press passes, not harm them. As for the context, well it's certainly clear to you...

Edited April 28, 2014 by Sarex

[Volourn]

When someone has a gun and tells you to do something or else.. that's a threat of violence. Period. Don't try to spin otherwise.

[Sarex]

When someone has a gun and tells you to do something or else.. that's a threat of violence. Period. Don't try to spin otherwise.

 

Don't be stupid, there was no or "else". They were told not to lie or they will have their press passes revoked, there was no threat of violence. A police officer has a gun, when he tells you not to park by a hydrant or else you will get fined is that a threat of violence? Of course it isn't. They clearly stated the consequences of lies and it was not violence.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Sarex

[Hassat Hunter]

People make of stuff what they want... adding stuff and 'context' that isn't there...

Also, anyone see any armed people actually there?

I rest my case...

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27185085

 

Shot their mayor in the back, hm, these people know how to get politicians out of office it seems.

 

So, pro-previous president... then turned current president... AND potential criminal ties. Sounds the guy made himself a target for everyone in Ukrain.

[213374U]

A police officer has a gun, when he tells you not to park by a hydrant or else you will get fined is that a threat of violence? Of course it isn't.

 

To be fair, any order given by an armed law enforcement officer is, ultimately, a threat, in the sense that cops are the embodiment of the state monopoly on the use of violence ("public force"). It's just that we have learned to live under this threat and accept it as part of the social contract. But try and resist, see how that ends. This scenario may seem absurd because under normal circumstances people usually aren't militant anarchists.

 

But then, when social order has broken down, "normal circumstances" no longer apply, and riot police become indeed "balaclava-clad gunmen", at least to those who refuse to acknowledge their authority. In the end, people rely on balaclava-clad gunmen to protect them from balaclava-clad gunmen. As Orwell put it: "men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them".

[Zoraptor]

Its just yet another deflection, shoveled every time we point out the issues of Russia state media in this, redirecting by suggesting that we think that there no issues with western media, that its squeaky clean or whatever. Even though none of the involved ever claimed that, and as far as I recall all argued for using several media outlets to get the whole picture.

NOBODY IS CLAIMING THAT RUSSIAN MEDIA IS GOOD. That's the argument you wish people were making because it'd be an 'automatic win' for you and it is an absolute classic straw man, constructing the argument you wish people were making, not the one they actually are- also hence why you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is 'deflecting'. The only people saying that it's good is whoever you're arguing with in your own head.

 

It is saying there's zero point implicitly trusting either sides' media- if you're refuting stuff/ making accusations with incorrect western propagated information it's exactly as bad as someone doing the same with Russian sourced stuff, it isn't fundamentally better just because West=good Russia=bad FACT! Indeed, it's utterly pointless getting a 'balanced' view from 'multiple sources' when they're all uncritically using exactly the same ultimate source*. How many media outlets pulled USAToday up on their mistranslation? How many didn't simply repeat it as gospel?

 

Not many, if any

 

Sadly true my fellow cantabriensis, though at least in this case it was definitely any, even if it still wasn't many and the same, incorrect, accusation was still being repeated days later. Yet it wasn't exactly difficult to actually check the facts. Use your multiple sources there and you come up with a perfectly reinforced supposedly checked yet completely incorrect view because they all go back to the same, wrong, source, and very few bothered to check because USAToday is, supposedly, proper unbiased western media. Just wrong proper unbiased media.

 

*That's particularly ironic on a gaming forum, because one of the biggest complaints about gaming journalists is how they uncritically regurgitate press releases from games companies and other site's speculation as if it's factual news and won't dissent from PR releases because they may lose access. But when the news media does the same thing...

Edited April 29, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Gorgon]

Is someone missing the fact that this is a story about a guy who got shoved in the back of a van, well the boot of a car, by balaclava clad gunmen and was taken to the police station or whatever and beaten up for being a reporter. 

 

How do you not see the connection. I mean ....

 

The nice lady at the press conference isn't going to be the one kidnapping you, that happens later. Unless you file 'the truth' of course. No one bothers reporters with Russian press passes, they know the deal, everyone else better learn fast or get out.

[Mor]

Again you mis-characterize an argument, almost the third time in a row. I begin to suspect you do this on purpose to troll me, accusing me at using strawmen argument, while doing so yourself. No, I didn't said nor think that you claim that Russian media is good. In fact just couple posts back, i noted that you have no problem to acknowledgment the faults.

 

What I wish to addressed, as stated in the second paragraph of the post you quoted (in bold):

After that we are back to the same "Russian and western media are the same" - Which is what we want to address here, the fundamental understanding that Russian mass media, being state media plays major role in Russia's coordinated misinformation campaign; that "western media" isn't one entity, so unless in your vocabulary everything western is substitutable with "foreign enemies" let stop with broad generalizations; lastly when most media outlets(not just western) show completely different turn of event than Russian media, it might be prudent todo some of that critical thinking and discuss why.

sadly after almost 100 pages, the oby "groups" commentators are still claiming that Russia media is the same as "western" media. Which can easily observed by anyone who will go over the last couple of pages.

[obyknven]

Germany. Yet occupied country with puppet government, but people stop be blind and begin understand real situation.

http://youtu.be/VOmhvRU9XxU

Most interesting thing - serious  anti-government riots and fighting for freedom can wake up this secret organisation. It's worst horror for US, their puppets and whole conformist society.

 

Elections in EU parliament soon  also

 

 

[Sarex]

Is someone missing the fact that this is a story about a guy who got shoved in the back of a van, well the boot of a car, by balaclava clad gunmen and was taken to the police station or whatever and beaten up for being a reporter. 

 

How do you not see the connection. I mean ....

 

The nice lady at the press conference isn't going to be the one kidnapping you, that happens later. Unless you file 'the truth' of course. No one bothers reporters with Russian press passes, they know the deal, everyone else better learn fast or get out.

 

Or he just found a nice hotel, stayed there for a couple of days and presto he was kidnapped. I really don't see the point of hauling in one reporter, of which I haven't even heard about before and beating him (while not leaving a mark on him) to teach him a lesson. A much more likely scenario is to put a bullet in his head and bury him in a ditch and let him serve as a warning to the others. My point is, even if this happened it doesn't strike me as something the FSB(or any other Russian agency) would do, but as an initiative of a man who leader of the group in the area, or something similar, but even that is farfetched to me and I think he is just lying his ass off.

[Hassat Hunter]

Gorgon convinced me...

 

Capturing, feeding, generally treating well. Barbarians!

 

We all know civilised societies would strip them nude, make them form a pile, piss on them, let dogs attack them and then pose pictures with that.

 

Tsk... barbarians! Geneva convention! Haha!

(Also, what Sarex said... for someone getting a beating, there's not a single mark)

Edited April 29, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Malcador]

sadly after almost 100 pages, the oby "groups" commentators are still claiming that Russia media is the same as "western" media. Which can easily observed by anyone who will go over the last couple of pages.

Like the states they report in, it's not so much identical implementation but the intention is the same.

[Gorgon]

Gorgon convinced me...

 

Capturing, feeding, generally treating well. Barbarians!

 

We all know civilised societies would strip them nude, make them form a pile, piss on them, let dogs attack them and then pose pictures with that.

 

Tsk... barbarians! Geneva convention! Haha!

(Also, what Sarex said... for someone getting a beating, there's not a single mark)

So ?, he wasn't afriad for his life once he found out that the beat him being careful not to leave any marks, because they weren't stupid, they knew that was going to come back on them. Does that make it all right ? You are deflecting with insinuations about Abu Ghraib. It's got nothing to do with this.

 

It's certainly not relevant to the question of attempting to control the media output by intimidation. 

[Malcador]

http://www.businessinsider.com/germanys-ambivalence-exposed-by-ex-chancellors-birthday-party-with-putin-2014-4

 

Ahhh, optics.

[Sarex]

http://www.businessinsider.com/germanys-ambivalence-exposed-by-ex-chancellors-birthday-party-with-putin-2014-4

 

Ahhh, optics.

 

He has gone to the dark side, queue Darth Vader heavy breathing.

[obyknven]

East-Ukraine 28.04.2014. Ukrainian nationalists vs Antifa. Antifa win.

http://youtu.be/CyuQfNUxlgM

[obyknven]

Successful people rebellion in Lugansk. Police surrender and has been disarmed. Lugansk is capital of yet another region of East-Ukraine - Kievan junta fall in hysterics - they don't have such amount of loyal punishers for yet another "anti-terrorist operation".

http://youtu.be/yEHuVSq7uac

Give to us moar sanction's  - they make our economics better.

http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/economy/54606.html

[obyknven]

Nazi march in Kiev resulted by clashes between different street gangs from Maidan..

 

http://youtu.be/mSxpMQKzb3s

 

Kievan junta mumbling something about Putin agent's and provocations, enemies everywhere.    

[Drowsy Emperor]

As was somewhat expected the rats in Kiev are at each other's throats:

 

http://rt.com/news/155748-rally-kiev-massive-fight/

 

Now that they've "served their purpose" as the brownshirts of the protests Kiev expects the neo-nazis to disappear, which is not happening. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

http://rt.com/news/155856-ukraine-alert-president-army/

 

Talk about blowing your own trumpet only to admit its a toilet paper roll and not a trumpet.