Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[obyknven]

Ukrainian civil war news.

Junta use artillery against Slavjansk  at 11 may. East Ukrainian forces responded by counterattack - in result ammo storage at junta positions are exploded and around 100 Nazianal guards are killed (junta say they are deserted). 

13 may. Column of Nazianal guards has been ambushed  by selfdefence forces. At result junta lose: 2 APC,  1 truck with infantry, 1 truck with ammo, around 30 soldiers killed and wounded. From column survived only one truck. Selfdefence loses - 1 killed, 1 wounded.

http://youtu.be/F8cOiE22C-E

Junta use last reserves in conflict, even UN arms.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=218807&d=1400007030

 

 

[obyknven]

Jen Psaki  is a new heroine of Russian Internets. Where Obama find such talented woman?

http://youtu.be/_bg9X0eNFds

 

 

 

[Zoraptor]

Heh, I particularly like how you describe quoting the actual constitution as being "conveniently plausible"- when your "detailed well founded specificities", no doubt, involve not even bothering to have read the document your claims rely on. Hint: if you run around quoting propaganda without checking it is actual factual rather than, well, propaganda you will get bitten on the arse by reality and you will look silly. And you'll deserve it.

 

(That's the reinstated constitution I linked to, btw, the one that they supposedly deposed him with, so no, you can't wriggle your way free on that either. Also, Yuchenko was president in 2004- you know, 'Orange Revolution' dude. But so far as inaccuracies go that is small fry, if symptomatic)

 

Still, it is amazing how 'legal frameworks' suddenly become of paramount importance once the side you favour has done all of their illegal stuff- and immediately before people you don't support do something illegal. Convenient, that. Everything is, spontaneous self defence groups in Maidan, awesome idea and a response to oppression by an unfriendly government, spontaneous self defence groups in Donetsk, ultimate evil and couldn't possibly be a response to an unfriendly government also.

[Mor]

Still, it is amazing how 'legal frameworks' suddenly become of paramount importance once the side you favour has done all of their illegal stuff- and immediately before people you don't support do something illegal. Convenient, that. Everything is, spontaneous self defence groups in Maidan, awesome idea and a response to oppression by an unfriendly government, spontaneous self defence groups in Donetsk, ultimate evil and couldn't possibly be a response to an unfriendly government also.

The only amazing thing is that you speak, but hear oby, and that you still paddling those tiresome\retard deflection\accusations and out of context comparisons.

 

No, we don't think that western government\ideologies\whatever are perfect and this has nothing todo with topic ; no, we don't think that "Western" media is squeaky clean or has its share of faults, but this doesn't distract us from Russia far worse record and its direct conflict of interest in this case and the role of its state media as propaganda tool ; no, we are not pro-"west", many of us were critical of USA actions in the past, but this is about Russian actions which lack any legitimacy, violates its own international treaties and bring us back to Brezhnev doctrine; No we do not subscribe to Svaboda platform or red sector methods, and

 

No, I do not deem the legality of action based on my POV, as noted many times before all culprits should share its blame as part of solution, once we can deal with the immediate threat to stability.

 

I can't say the same about you. You keep paddling the POV stuff, but I have yet to see you acknowledge that Euromadien and interim-government being anything but the convenient stereotypes I mentioned above, that most of the perceived threat\persecution to ethnic Russians was generated by Russian media, that are many other players and factors at play in this complex situation except the above stereotypes, including the big Russian bear in the room and its involvement or rather pattern of involvement over the last few years.

 

I already explained you my bottom line and real world solution above. So answer me this, if you believed that Parliament majority vote to depose the absent president during time of national crisis was illegal, what exactly was your solution? appealing to the courts, UN, anything? because at the time I only recall you using this, as pretext to legitimize Russian actions in Crimea..

 

not even bothering to have read the document your claims rely on

No, if you can recall I read it first time you posted it(two threads back?), noting to you that it was plausible. What I don't recall is your providing any proof that indeed the relevant clause as you claim. Surely you understand my skepticism, with your history, plus if any internet idiot could interpret the constitution, they wouldn't need the constitutional court presiding for years over little turn of phrase.. Edited May 14, 2014 by Mor

[sorophx]

[Drowsy Emperor]

The scandal with the UN helicopter is hilarious (or would be if they didn't use it to kill people). It really speaks of the state of the Ukrainian army if they had to put a mission chopper into use, presumably because it was one of the few undergoing regular maintenance and thus, reliable. 

[sorophx]

what about the military motorized column that was ambushed under Kramatorsk? officially they were carrying food supplies. but the vehicle that got destroyed was carrying ammo and an artillery weapon.

 

and of course it shows that it is a full-blown civil war now that civilians are blowing up army convoys 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Dunno, but at this point Kiev is basically shuffling some ragtag gunmen around, trying to beat the regions into submission but all that has achieved is alienating the population there and ensuring that they end up without a foothold in what was previously an undisputed part of Ukraine. 

 

There is no way they're going to retain control without massive bloodbaths and demonstrations of power... that are beyond their capabilities, if not beyond their inclinations (>Odessa, the Maidan snipers etc.). 

[obyknven]

what about the military motorized column that was ambushed under Kramatorsk? officially they were carrying food supplies. but the vehicle that got destroyed was carrying ammo and an artillery weapon.

 

and of course it shows that it is a full-blown civil war now that civilians are blowing up army convoys 

Explosive food supplies.

 

 

[Hassat Hunter]

The scandal with the UN helicopter is hilarious (or would be if they didn't use it to kill people). It really speaks of the state of the Ukrainian army if they had to put a mission chopper into use, presumably because it was one of the few undergoing regular maintenance and thus, reliable. 

 

Link?

Of course didn't see this reported on the Dutch news and too tired to google-fu now (0:40AM) so hopefully can read it fresh in the morning with a nice link

[Zoraptor]

What we really need are some hard figures about desertion rates in the Ukrainian army, apart from the 80% for those in Crimea. We already know much of the police force is gone, but if the eastern part of the army is deserting or starts to desert in large amounts to the rebels then there's trouble.

 

And in 'interesting parallels' news, I note that Ukraine has restricted cut water flow into Crimea. From April 28, but for some mysterious reason there's difficulty finding an english language news report of it, not sure why when western news is so well balanced. Which, I am sure, is completely different from Russia's potential restriction of gas flows if Ukraine doesn't pay in advance, after all, one is an essential for life as we know it and the other is only water. And in "what did you expect you muppets" news Russia cuts the US off from ISIS and the rockets they use to launch military satellites. Which is surprising and underhanded, and an unwonted escalation. Sanctions should only be applied on stuff which isn't useful to us, anything reciprocal is deeply unfair and mean.

 

So answer me this, if you believed that Parliament majority vote to depose the absent president during time of national crisis was illegal, what exactly was your solution?

 

I don't need a solution, I wouldn't have ended up in that situation in the first place. It's like demanding a solution for a broken motorbike problem where the motorbike has been deliberately disassembled, the solution is: don't break in the first place what you cannot fix.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

what about the military motorized column that was ambushed under Kramatorsk? officially they were carrying food supplies. but the vehicle that got destroyed was carrying ammo and an artillery weapon.

 

and of course it shows that it is a full-blown civil war now that civilians are blowing up army convoys 

Explosive food supplies.

 

 

 

 

Isn't that rust on those wrecks.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The scandal with the UN helicopter is hilarious (or would be if they didn't use it to kill people). It really speaks of the state of the Ukrainian army if they had to put a mission chopper into use, presumably because it was one of the few undergoing regular maintenance and thus, reliable. 

 

Link?

Of course didn't see this reported on the Dutch news and too tired to google-fu now (0:40AM) so hopefully can read it fresh in the morning with a nice link

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-14/why-are-ukraine-troops-using-un-helicopters-russia-foreign-minister-asks

[Mor]

@Drowsy Emperor, I fail to see where in this link is any hint of your claim that the UN helicopter were "use it to kill people"

Edited May 15, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

Isn't that rust on those wrecks.

 

It's result of burning. 

http://youtu.be/IkSBRCiXx2M

http://youtu.be/CAte_v7a0mE

[Zoraptor]

Isn't that rust on those wrecks.

 

Burning does that to vehicles.

 

Pics are definitely genuine.

[Mor]

Ukraine crisis: Kiev talks open without rebels

 

Ukraine's political and civic leaders have held a first round of talks to end the crisis in the country - but separatists were not represented.

 

Correspondents said talks were heated although there was a consensus that Ukraine must remain a united state.

 

The interim president said Kiev was prepared to listen to rebels, but said they must lay down their arms first.

...

Edited May 15, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

[..img..]

That is exactly the problem that I have pointed out several thread ago, the idea that this is some kind of "west" vs Russia game, the friend-or-foe mentality cultivated by Russian media (long since before this crisis) which is particularly notable in many totalitarian countries in the region, with internal issues.

 

 

So answer me this, if you believed that Parliament majority vote to depose the absent president during time of national crisis was illegal, what exactly was your solution?

I don't need a solution, I wouldn't have ended up in that situation in the first place. It's like demanding a solution for a broken motorbike problem where the motorbike has been deliberately disassembled, the solution is: don't break in the first place what you cannot fix.

 

So you don't care for solution for Ukrainian crisis, because you decided that Ukrainian system is broken and the only way to fix it is trough Russian (how is it different from Brezhnev Doctrine). Which is why you arguments bottom line always revolve around legitimizing Russia violations\side and still ignore the full spectrum of the situation and parrot Putin daily message jumping from one headline to another to keep this afloat, and of course blaming the USA\west\UN\.. for the violence.

 

p.s. Most of us think that Putin's Russia is broken... so ?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Mor

[sorophx]

UN helicopter:

http://ria.ru/world/20140514/1007769907.html

 

you'll have to use Google to translate the page, but basically it says that the Ukrainian ministry of defense denies having a UN-painted Mi-24. while there are pictures of a Mi-24 painted white belonging to Ukrainian peace keepers, apparently

Edited May 15, 2014 by sorophx

[Drowsy Emperor]

@Drowsy Emperor, I fail to see where in this link is any hint of your claim that the UN helicopter were "use it to kill people"

 

Its an attack helicopter, what do you think they're using it for. 

 

It can transport a squad as well, but still. Its not like they removed the weaponry and are using it just to ferry troops around. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Isn't that rust on those wrecks.

 

Burning does that to vehicles.

 

Pics are definitely genuine.

 

 

Looks so similar at first glance..., although if it were a rusty wreck the garbage at the bottom would have washed away from rain and whatnot.

[Mor]

@sorophx, I don't need to translate anything. There were few brief comments on this (both originating in Russian media outlets, so i'd wait for confirmation on this) the thing you seem to drop in translation is the difference between marking and colors. According to RT there were sighting of UN colored helicopter participating in Dotenzk and Ukraine confirmed that they got through(program?) such choppers which had Ukranian markings put instead - not color. (I guess they didn't have the means to do full pimp my ride on the spot, nor I am sure they are required ). I am not sure what the fuse, but at this point I support any pittance that can be offered Ukraine.

 

 

Its an attack helicopter, what do you think they're using it for.

I leave the guessing game to Breaking news on Putin daily (and subsequently to you). You know like all the tabloid crap that the majority of the initial reports produced by Russian media turned out to be... Many of who were to sway Russian public opinion (and posted here especially in the first thread during Crimean land grab). Edited May 15, 2014 by Mor

[BruceVC]

 

@Drowsy Emperor, I fail to see where in this link is any hiatnt of your claim that the UN helicopter were "use it to kill people"

 

Its an attack helicopter, what do you think they're using it for. 

 

It can transport a squad as well, but still. Its not like they removed the weaponry and are using it just to ferry troops around. 

 

That means nothing, please provide the links that show the number of Ukrainians who were killed by this helicopter. This is a big development and a UN helicopter that attacked pro-Russian supporters should be all over the news. So it shouldn't be hard to find and verify?

Edited May 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

Sure, you want me to ship you the shell casings as well? Passenger manifesto? The pilot's dating website profile, so you can troll both him and us at the same time? 

Edited May 15, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

Sure, you want me to ship you the shell casings as well? Passenger manifesto? The pilot's dating website profile, so you can troll both him and us at the same time? 

 

You really seem incapable of having a mature debate, on this topic, without getting defensive and resorting to personal attacks that I am troll. You need to work on this Drowsy. You made a serious accusation, I asked you for the actual proof that a UN helicopter is killing pro-Russian Ukrainians. This is not an unreasonable request and is certainly not trolling.