Ukraine Redux

[Sarex]

It's not that simple and it's not correct.

Otherwise you'd be seeing a mass exodus any time any army comes into any town.

There are two things that can cause a mass exodus - panic (weather the danger is real or inflated) and coercion.

And strangely, the CA didn't instigate either.

 

You claim that the people ran away because they were afraid that the CA will be raping, burning and pillaging. The question is - from where does that fear stem from?

If the people ran away before the CA came, then there was no town that was cleansed/burned/pillaged since they were vacant. And given the speed of advancement of the CA and the chaotic battlefield, there's no way that other towns/villages would have known and panicked/ran because of that even if that had happened.

The speed and organization make it clear that the exodus was planned well in advance. Furthermore, there are signed orders from RSK about it, AND videos of YU and RSK officers ordering such an exodus.

 

 

And I see you didn't answer my bolded question.

 

 

Show me those videos you keep mentioning. You don't know how ridiculous you sound. Why would RSK order such things?

 

Why would I answer strawmans, that have 0 bases in what happened in the real world?

 

 

Oh, and here I though it was you who repeats propaganda like a broken record.

 

Nope, anyone who knows anything about the war can clearly see you are wrong.

 

Yeah, clearly. Because you provided sources and spoke sensibly in these last few pages. You don't know how ridiculous your claim about operation Storm sounds.

 

 

Nope. You said you passed trough and the bus didn't stop.

 

In Zagreb.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Sarex

[TrashMan]

It's funny that you think America reported their real losses in Afghanistan or Iraq. I know about there reports in Vietnam, where they lost hundreds of airplanes and they claimed only a couple of dozen. And where did I post a source that claimed 300 shot down planes during NATO bombing, in fact were did I CLAIM that? You didn't even read the links I posted...

 

So America is lying, but Serbia isn't?

 

And I did read your links (which mention 120+ shot down craft). And the links on those sites (which go into even higher numbers)

 

 

 

Show me those videos you keep mentioning. You don't know how ridiculous you sound. Why would RSK order such things?

 

I'd have to find them first and I have YouTube blocked on my work laptop. But you should be able to find them too, since they were used by the defense in ICTY.

 

And as to why? Because RSK was loosing badly. Fear. and also because it would make Croatia look bad.

 

Aloo, you seem to oh-so-conveniently completely ignore my last post on the previous page. Shall we refresh your memory? Lets.

 

*******************************

 

The HV and the special police suffered 174–211 killed or missing, while the ARSK had 560 soldiers killed. Four UN peacekeepers were also killed. The HV captured 4,000 prisoners of war. The number of Serb civilian deaths is disputed—Croatia claims that 214 were killed, while Serbian sources cite 1,192 civilians killed or missing. During and after the offensive, 150,000–200,000 Serbs—or nearly the entire Serb population of the area formerly held by the ARSK—fled and a variety of crimes were committed against the remaining civilians there. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) later tried three Croatian generals charged with war crimes and partaking in a joint criminal enterprise designed to force the Serb population out of Croatia; they were all ultimately acquitted and the tribunal ruling refuted the charges that Operation Storm was planned as a criminal enterprise. As of November 2012, the Croatian judiciary has convicted 2,380 persons for various crimes committed during Operation Storm.

 

 

ADDITIONALY:

 

At the beginning of the Croatian War of Independence, in 1991–1992, a non-Serb population of more than 220,000 was forcibly removed from Serb-held territories in Croatia, as the RSK was established

(while this is true, the whole process started a decade earlier with soft pressure. Croats in the region find getting (and keeping) a job nearly impossible. Smear campaigns were conducted against them and pressure escalated)

 

 

 

The number of civilian casualties in Operation Storm is disputed. The State Attorney's Office of the Republic of Croatia claims that 214 civilians were killed—156 in 24 instances of war crimes and another 47 as victims of murder—during the battle and in its immediate aftermath. The Croatian Helsinki Committee disputes the claim and reports that 677 civilians were killed during the same period,^[213] however their report was rejected by the ICTY, when submitted as evidence, due to unsourced statements and double entries contained in the report.^[214] Serbian sources quote 1,192 civilians dead or missing.^[215] The ICTY prosecutors set civilian deaths at 324.^[216]

 

**********

 

Given the bolded listed above it's not hard to understand.

 

The area of RSK was ethnicly cleansed before...and populated by hard-line Serbs who were equipped by the JNA. The second Croatia declared independance they started to fight and many a crimes were committed against non-Serbs.

So yes, they feared reprisals, since many were involved and actively participted or passively supported. Add the RNK and JNA further stirring up fear and panic and ordering evacuations...

 

 

 

Yeah, clearly. Because you provided sources and spoke sensibly in these last few pages. You don't know how ridiculous your claim about operation Storm sounds.

 

My sources are far more credible than yours. Not some nationalistic webpages whose information no one doublechecks. I provided you with links and wikipedia articles.

[Sarex]

So America is lying, but Serbia isn't?

 

And I did read your links (which mention 120+ shot down craft). And the links on those sites (which go into even higher numbers)

 

But clearly you are telling the truth. Right?

 

 

I'd have to find them first and I have YouTube blocked on my work laptop. But you should be able to find them too, since they were used by the defense in ICTY.

 

And as to why? Because RSK was loosing badly. Fear. and also because it would make Croatia look bad.

 

If it's easy find them.

 

So they deported 200 thousand Serbs from their homes and jobs, to make Croatia look bad? Then I have a question, why don't those 200 thousand Serbs come back to their homes now? The war is over there should be no problems, right?

 

 

The HV and the special police suffered 174–211 killed or missing, while the ARSK had 560 soldiers killed. Four UN peacekeepers were also killed. The HV captured 4,000 prisoners of war. The number of Serb civilian deaths is disputed—Croatia claims that 214 were killed, while Serbian sources cite 1,192 civilians killed or missing. During and after the offensive, 150,000–200,000 Serbs—or nearly the entire Serb population of the area formerly held by the ARSK—fled and a variety of crimes were committed against the remaining civilians there. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) later tried three Croatian generals charged with war crimes and partaking in a joint criminal enterprise designed to force the Serb population out of Croatia; they were all ultimately acquitted and the tribunal ruling refuted the charges that Operation Storm was planned as a criminal enterprise. As of November 2012, the Croatian judiciary has convicted 2,380 persons for various crimes committed during Operation Storm.

 

 

ADDITIONALY:

 

At the beginning of the Croatian War of Independence, in 1991–1992, a non-Serb population of more than 220,000 was forcibly removed from Serb-held territories in Croatia, as the RSK was established

(while this is true, the whole process started a decade earlier with soft pressure. Croats in the region find getting (and keeping) a job nearly impossible. Smear campaigns were conducted against them and pressure escalated)

 

 

 

The number of civilian casualties in Operation Storm is disputed. The State Attorney's Office of the Republic of Croatia claims that 214 civilians were killed—156 in 24 instances of war crimes and another 47 as victims of murder—during the battle and in its immediate aftermath. The Croatian Helsinki Committee disputes the claim and reports that 677 civilians were killed during the same period,^[213] however their report was rejected by the ICTY, when submitted as evidence, due to unsourced statements and double entries contained in the report.^[214] Serbian sources quote 1,192 civilians dead or missing.^[215] The ICTY prosecutors set civilian deaths at 324.^[216]

 

**********

 

Given the bolded listed above it's not hard to understand.

 

The area of RSK was ethnicly cleansed before...and populated by hard-line Serbs who were equipped by the JNA. The second Croatia declared independance they started to fight and many a crimes were committed against non-Serbs.

So yes, they feared reprisals, since many were involved and actively participted or passively supported. Add the RNK and JNA further stirring up fear and panic and ordering evacuations...

 

 

The transcripts also prove that Operation Storm was sanctioned and supported by the west. Why would they then go and in their own court incriminate them selves? Yeah, people are supposed to believe that CA just went for a stroll to stretch their legs and 1000 dead and 200 thousand banished are just a coincidence.

 

Show me some source or proof for those removed non-Serbs from Croatia.

 

So 324 are dead by your sources and the remaining 700 don't exist? Or did they go on a vacation and forgot to come back?

 

My sources are far more credible than yours. Not some nationalistic webpages whose information no one doublechecks. I provided you with links and wikipedia articles.

 

LoL. Wikipedia. LoL

 

Also let's get something clear, my sources are people who were in the war and people who were banished from their homes, those are the people I trust and they have no reason to lie. The links I provide are for the benefit of others who don't know what happened.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Sarex

[obyknven]

US lost  two MQ-5B drones in Crimea.

Russians just hack them.

 

The drone used to belong to 66th Military Intelligence Brigade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/66th_Military_Intelligence_Brigade

Those guys still have 16 drones.

[TrashMan]

 

But clearly you are telling the truth. Right?

 

 

Probably.

Propaganda exists on both sides - this is a self-evident truth that you continue to ignore.

 

I look into as many sources as I can. Serbian TV, Italian TV, Croatian TV, German TV, Al-Jazeera, AL-Iraya,CNN,BBC, etc...

So when 19 out of 20 sources all say 1 thing (not in the same way, but still in general) then you're damn right I'm going to go them.

 

Not to say that that Croatian news and foreign news always matched up, but in general they were closer and there was less obvious propaganda.

 

Feel free to start with the world conspiracy theories

 

 

 

If it's easy find them.

So they deported 200 thousand Serbs from their homes and jobs, to make Croatia look bad? Then I have a question, why don't those 200 thousand Serbs come back to their homes now? The war is over there should be no problems, right?

 

So 324 are dead by your sources and the remaining 700 don't exist? Or did they go on a vacation and forgot to come back?

 

1) If I did, would it matter? Or would you just dismiss it like everything else? At least I make an effort of informing myself and have actually read your link. Then I went further and followed extra links and checked the references on those sites. Meanwhile, you're too lazy to do a google search.

 

2) Possible, but I personally find it unlikely. The real reasons I already stated. The history of the area, fear and RSK and YU pushing for it.

 

3) By today around140 000 of them have come back.

 

4) Where there even 1000? Serbia claims over 11000. Croatia reported around 240. The CHC sez 670. The ICTY investigations say 324. The old saying goes "the truth is usually in the middle". And the numbers we get are higher than what Croatia reported, but significantly lower than what Serbia claims.

 

 

 

 

 

The transcripts also prove that Operation Storm was sanctioned and supported by the west. Why would they then go and in their own court incriminate them selves? Yeah, people are supposed to believe that CA just went for a stroll to stretch their legs and 1000 dead and 200 thousand banished are just a coincidence.

 

That still wouldn't incriminate the "west", given that in the event of a planned genocide (which it was not), the US leadership would have to have had complete knowledge.

And lets not forget that it's Serbias interest to lie as well.

 

 

 

Show me some source or proof for those removed non-Serbs from Croatia.

 

Bloody hell, check the wiki. Or google.

Heck, just check the historical demographic maps of Croatia - you should easily see a sudden and drastic change in the area of Krajina.

 

 

 

LoL. Wikipedia. LoL

 

Also let's get something clear, my sources are people who were in the war and people who were banished from their homes, those are the people I trust and they have no reason to lie. The links I provide are for the benefit of others who don't know what happened.

 

While I agree that wikipedia isn't the greatest information source, it is one of the most neutral. Which is more than I can say for any source you provided.

 

Also, you know a fun fact about the war in Croatia? It happened in Croatia. I could look out of my window and see it going on.

Meanwhile, to you and most of Serbia it was something you only heard about on the news.

 

So yeah, I kinda think I know a lot better what was going on in my backyard than you. I live here. I've seen it. And I heard stories too IN ADDITION to that. From people who have even less reason to lie.

 

 

Now, I'm trying to be reasonable here, but it clearly isn't working, since you seem to have 0 interest in even looking at any piece of information that doesn't support your view. You seem unwilling to make even the slightest concession, or accept any blemish on blame of anything Serbian.

 

The courts in Croatia have trialed and convicted over 2400 CROATS for crimes during the war. We are at least trying over here. How many Serbian war criminals have you convicted?

[obyknven]

In East Ukraine civil war are started. Locals attack base of Ukrainian nationalists ( it's  return strike after similar action of right-wingers).

http://youtu.be/noGc5Quf-3M

 

http://youtu.be/rkNL1HBiNi0

Some shootings here, few people are wounded.

 

Russian intervention become more and more real.

 

[obyknven]

In East Ukraine civil war are started. Locals attack base of Ukrainian nationalists ( it's  return strike after similar action of right-wingers).

 

Some shootings here, few people are wounded.

 

Russian intervention become more and more real.

At least one local guy is killed.

Neo-nazi stay besiged by police and people at base. They belongs to Misantropic division of Right sector.

Their homepage.

http://vk.com/w8tan

 

Financical help from EU and US to Ukraine mostly planned be used for arm of Right Sector and other paramilitary right wing groups ( they take status of National guards now ).   Ruling parties of EU and US perform political suicide IMHO.

[obyknven]

They are so funny

http://vk.com/w8tan?w=wall-44739306_164710

 

We not surrender.

My fuhrer awaits me in Valhalla

 

 Oh, lol, so brainwashed nazi.  Yet more funny - these nazi is best friends of  black jew Obama. This world going crazy   :lol:

[Gorgon]

Black Jew Obama...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[obyknven]

Black Jew Obama...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jewish mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

 

The Law of Return 5710-1950 was enacted by the Knesset, Israel's Parliament, on July 5, 1950.^[2] The Law declares the right of Jews to come to Israel: "Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh." Follow-up legislation on immigration matters was contained in the Nationality Law of 1952. The Law of Return was modified in 1970 to extend the right of return to non-Jews with a Jewish grandparent, and their spouses.

The law since 1970 applies to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages).

You fail

[obyknven]

 

Neo-nazi stay besiged by police and people at base. They belongs to Misantropic division of Right sector.

 

Their homepage.

http://vk.com/w8tan

 

 Result. 6 people wounded, 2 people killed... Ukrainian "government" make order to police do nothing against this nazi and retreat. These armed extremists can do now everything what they want .

 

Ukrainian show "300 Jews"

http://youtu.be/1to1GbNlnnE

 

Rabbi injured in Kiev attack, wife claims it was anti-Semitic

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Rabbi-injured-in-Kiev-attack-wife-calls-was-anti-Semitic-345399

[obyknven]

Crimea. People want buy Russian flags.

http://youtu.be/vNHSJNu3vE0

 

Crimea. Back to the Russia.

[Gorgon]

I imagine a Russian flag would be just the thing to avoid being beaten to a pulp by balaklava clad gunmen. The city of Balaklava is literally just around the corner, but I was refering to the headgear.

[Agiel]

 

It's funny that you think America reported their real losses in Afghanistan or Iraq. I know about there reports in Vietnam, where they lost hundreds of airplanes and they claimed only a couple of dozen. And where did I post a source that claimed 300 shot down planes during NATO bombing, in fact were did I CLAIM that? You didn't even read the links I posted...

 

So America is lying, but Serbia isn't?

 

And I did read your links (which mention 120+ shot down craft). And the links on those sites (which go into even higher numbers)

 

 

 

 

Ah, I saw this figure before. When I decided to humour the guy who told me this and asked for his source, turned out it was from one of those Slavic Supremacist websites.

[Agiel]

US lost  two MQ-5B drones in Crimea.

Russians just hack them.

 

The drone used to belong to 66th Military Intelligence Brigade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/66th_Military_Intelligence_Brigade

 

Those guys still have 16 drones.

 

The MQ-5B only has a range of 140nm. In other words the claim is not only total bupkis, but very very poorly researched bupkis at that. 

 

And from the horse's mouth:

 

 

 

 

Rostec State Corporation does not confirm the information concerning the facts of use of the "Autobase" technical utility on the Crimea Peninsula, which was published in a number of mass media.

 

The State Corporation bears responsibility for the quality of its products but is by no means responsible for the relocation and the results of the use of the equipment supplied by the Corporation's organizations within the framework of contractors' orders.

 

The abovementioned piece of information was originally published on the "Military Observer" Internet portal.

 

Thereby the complete responsibility for the correctness, authenticity and reliability of the published information lies upon the editors of the "Military Observer".

 

http://rostec.ru/en/news/4416

Edited March 15, 2014 by Agiel

[213374U]

Hmm. Apparently Rostec were the ones reporting the downing to begin with, but I can't seem to find the actual press release (maybe in Russian?). They are "not confirming" the Autobase system was used, but they aren't actually denying anything related to the drone. Again, could be a dodgy translation.

 

Also, MQ-5B has a declared combat radius of 260km. Does that include the "relay" function used to extend the range? Google also brings up stuff about a bigger, badder MQ-5C "E-Hunter", with longer radius. Nothing more recent than 2009, though.

 

Would it be a stretch to assume that drones could be operating from either Meszifon Air Base or Constanţa Int'l?

[Agiel]

260 km would be close to the 140 nautical mile range limit. Even with that kind of combat radius I doubt it would have enough playtime on station to justify the mission (it's powered by an engine from a snowmobile for Christ's sake).

 

And to have a simple short-ranged observation UAV ferry from Germany to closer bases seems needlessly round-a-bout when bigger, better drones are more suitable.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Agiel

[Mor]

All UN security console members voted in favor of resolution concerning the Crimea secession referendum as "illegitimate", with the exception of China --usually regarded as a Russian ally on this issues-- who abstained and Russia who vetoed the vote.

 

Meanwhile reportedly Russian troops took over another village inside Ukraine, Crimea. Also In Moscow some minor protest against Putin Crimea intervention.

[Agiel]

All UN security console members voted in favor of resolution concerning the Crimea secession referendum as "illegitimate", with the exception of China --usually regarded as a Russian ally on this issues-- who abstained and Russia who vetoed the vote.

 

China voting against secessionist movements, regardless of stripes, is largely consistent with their geopolitical outlook. For instance, they do not recognise the existence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia any more than they do Kosovo. If they vetoed it or claimed solidarity with Russia on the issue it would be calling the kettle black given their issues with Tibet, Taiwan, and the Uyhgurs (the same can be said about Spain, what with the Basque separatist movement). 

 

Also it's a misconception that China is in an alliance with Russia. Whatever co-operation and "understandings" between the two countries are at best tactical in nature (serving as strategic counterpoints to the west) and the two countries are in reality strategic rivals, particularly in Central Asia (I've heard it said that Russia's rearmament programs are as much about the Chinese as it is about NATO).

Edited March 16, 2014 by Agiel

[Mor]

I don't recall how China voted in UNSC concerning Kosovo resolutions (though I am pretty certain they recognized it), but they indeed voted the same in regard to Russia action in Georgia creating the two breakaway regions.

 

Also Chinese( and Russian) giant are afraid from cession and has been brutally suppressing such notions (btw couple of month ago Putin made talk of cession from Russia illegal), so you can see this as selfish vote by China to protect its interests, however, it can also be seen as a breakaway from their voting pattern which reflects the the common interests shared by both.

 

Anyway, the main news was that 8 voted for resolution calling the vote illegitimate and only Russia voted against.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Mor

[Sarex]

Probably.

Propaganda exists on both sides - this is a self-evident truth that you continue to ignore.

 

I look into as many sources as I can. Serbian TV, Italian TV, Croatian TV, German TV, Al-Jazeera, AL-Iraya,CNN,BBC, etc...

So when 19 out of 20 sources all say 1 thing (not in the same way, but still in general) then you're damn right I'm going to go them.

 

Not to say that that Croatian news and foreign news always matched up, but in general they were closer and there was less obvious propaganda.

 

Feel free to start with the world conspiracy theories

 

So basically your argument is: "I'm right and you are wrong".

 

 

1) If I did, would it matter? Or would you just dismiss it like everything else? At least I make an effort of informing myself and have actually read your link. Then I went further and followed extra links and checked the references on those sites. Meanwhile, you're too lazy to do a google search.

 

2) Possible, but I personally find it unlikely. The real reasons I already stated. The history of the area, fear and RSK and YU pushing for it.

 

3) By today around140 000 of them have come back.

 

4) Where there even 1000? Serbia claims over 11000. Croatia reported around 240. The CHC sez 670. The ICTY investigations say 324. The old saying goes "the truth is usually in the middle". And the numbers we get are higher than what Croatia reported, but significantly lower than what Serbia claims.

 

1) Well you certainly didn't have a problem with dismissing what I said. Yeah I'm lazy because I don't search for your sources too, just admit that you couldn't find them...

 

2)And I claim that it's because Operation Storm. Which is more likely I'll let others decide.

 

3)That is only about half the Serbs who left.

 

4)Well we certainly don't claim over 11000, maybe 1100. Well, we had over 1100 people missing, they still haven't showed up, so we presume them dead.

 

That still wouldn't incriminate the "west", given that in the event of a planned genocide (which it was not), the US leadership would have to have had complete knowledge.

And lets not forget that it's Serbias interest to lie as well.

 

But certainly not as much as it is in the interest of Croatia to lie. The trial is under way, people who are interested can see what proof we offer and what proof Croatia offers.

 

 

Bloody hell, check the wiki. Or google.

Heck, just check the historical demographic maps of Croatia - you should easily see a sudden and drastic change in the area of Krajina.

 

I don't seem to be able to find it, would you kindly provide me with the links?

 

 

While I agree that wikipedia isn't the greatest information source, it is one of the most neutral. Which is more than I can say for any source you provided.

 

Also, you know a fun fact about the war in Croatia? It happened in Croatia. I could look out of my window and see it going on.

Meanwhile, to you and most of Serbia it was something you only heard about on the news.

 

So yeah, I kinda think I know a lot better what was going on in my backyard than you. I live here. I've seen it. And I heard stories too IN ADDITION to that. From people who have even less reason to lie.

 

 

Now, I'm trying to be reasonable here, but it clearly isn't working, since you seem to have 0 interest in even looking at any piece of information that doesn't support your view. You seem unwilling to make even the slightest concession, or accept any blemish on blame of anything Serbian.

 

The courts in Croatia have trialed and convicted over 2400 CROATS for crimes during the war. We are at least trying over here. How many Serbian war criminals have you convicted?

 

Wikipedia is anything but neutral as it mostly relies on the western sources. My sources are as valid as yours, unless you have the proof to show otherwise.

 

Oh please Croatia barely saw any of the conflict, while I have family from Bosnia that went through the thick of it. Oh yeah we only saw the bombs drop on the news...

 

You showed how little you know even about the most basic of information.

 

I haven't denied the wrongs the Serbian side has done, but you are still defending even the most obvious wrongs Croatia has committed.

 

Oh yeah, you have trialed everyone but the people who matter. While we had our biggest political figures during the war jailed, and never found guilty.

 

 

 

 

Ah, I saw this figure before. When I decided to humour the guy who told me this and asked for his source, turned out it was from one of those Slavic Supremacist websites.

 

We shot down 2 of the invisible planes with the third unconfirmed, do you find it that strange that we shot down "regular planes" too. The only reason it even came to bombing Serbia is because America couldn't force our soldiers from Kosovo, ie. they were losing.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Sarex

[Elerond]

I don't recall how China voted in UNSC concerning Kosovo resolutions (though I am pretty certain they recognized it), but they indeed voted the same in regard to Russia action in Georgia creating the two breakaway regions.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

[213374U]

Pathetic. Another "universal principle" to be applied only on a case-by-case basis.

[obyknven]

Third Roman Empire is return.

Hail, Caesar: Russian Tanks Rolling into Eastern Ukraine

http://www.dailystormer.com/hail-caesar-russian-tanks-rolling-into-eastern-ukraine/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/15/russian-commandos-invade-ukraine.html

 

Crimeans planned use combat lions against Ukrainians.

 

Sevastopol's prosecutor is Igor Pilate, Sevasopol's military commander is Sergey Barabbas.

 

New Russian uniform "Legioner"

 

Official color of Eurasian Union is purple.

 

GOG = Goyim Occupation Government = Russia

MAGOG = Moscow Affiliated Goyim Occupation Government = Russian friends

Gog & Magog = Eurasian Union.

[Agiel]

 

Ah, I saw this figure before. When I decided to humour the guy who told me this and asked for his source, turned out it was from one of those Slavic Supremacist websites.

 

We shot down 2 of the invisible planes with the third unconfirmed, do you find it that strange that we shot down "regular planes" too. The only reason it even came to bombing Serbia is because America couldn't force our soldiers from Kosovo, ie. they were losing.

 

 

Really sarcastic answer: Ah yes. Let us have a moment of silence... for the entire air force of two that were lost over Kosovo.

 

Semi-sarcastic answer: If you imply "winning" on the part of the Serbs as cowering under camo nets and bridges then sure.

 

Serious answer: Stealth *does not* mean "invisible." It simply reduces the distance of which an aircraft may be detected (probably <25nm, which thus means there are now giant gaps in what used to be a formidable air defense system. I will freely admit that the Stinkbug shootdown was as a result of poor planning when they had them fly the same ingresses to the target area as when you put a search and track radars directly in its path, you will eventually get a return. When they began to vary their IPs over Yugoslavia, the only evidence of the passing of F-117s was the destruction they wrought.

 

The B-2 is an entirely different story. It's RCS is a fraction of that of the F-117 despite being three times bigger and a former Hungarian SA-2 operator and current SME has relayed to me that nothing short of the SA-10 has *any* chance against it. 

 

For the Serbs to make any meaningful incursion into Kosovo, it would have immediately tipped off the E-8 JSTARS and Rivet Joints that were flying overhead. After that, then they would have the second largest military in Serbia.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Agiel