Ukraine Redux

[obyknven]

China say about Ukraine.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-03/07/c_133168143.htm

Commentary: The West's fiasco in Ukraine

...

The West's strategy for installing a so-called democratic and pro-Western Ukrainian government did not get anywhere at all. On the contrary, they have created a mess they do not have the capacity or wisdom to clean.

Their ill-fated plan was fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. First of all, they were destined to shoot their own feet when they, under the cliche pretense of supporting democracy, interfered in Ukrainian domestic affairs by engaging in biased mediation.

Second, they underestimated Russia's will to protect its core interests in Ukraine. Russia may no longer be interested in competing for global preeminence with the West, but when it comes to cleaning a mess the West created in the country's backyard, Russian leaders once again proved their credibility and shrewdness in planning and executing effective counter moves.

Last but not least, Western leaders were delusional when they believed they, with dented moral authority and shrinking financial coffers, could still take up such a grand task of nation-building.

Unfortunately, Ukraine and its people have become a big victim in this grueling process.

The Ukrainian people do not get the democracy or prosperity the West promises. Instead, all they can see in their beloved country now is political confusion and economic depression.

The West itself also becomes a loser as the fiasco in Ukraine will surely erode its credibility.

For the rest of the world, once again, people see another great country torn apart because of a clumsy and selfish West that boasts too many lofty ideals but always comes up short of practical solutions.

But the world does not need to be too pessimistic. The game in Ukraine is far from over. The international community still has the opportunity to salvage the country by working together.

Major powers should set their animosity aside and start working for a compromise. The Ukrainians should abandon their political infighting and work to restore law and order in their country as soon as possible.

After all, an independent, complete and stable Ukraine best serves the interests of all, including China.

 

 

 Meanwhile Kievan usurpers make preparations for bloody supress of Crimean rebellion. It's political suicide - this provoke fullscale Russian invasion,  Kiev just do what US demand from they (US do want test battle capability of Russian army ). Poor Ukrainians, they become  cannon fodder for NATO.

 

 http://youtu.be/AeESBK1xDXQ

Edited March 8, 2014 by obyknven

[kgambit]

 

The average EU country gets 15 to 30% of its energy from Russia.  A decade ago, Gazprom made up half of Europe's gas imports.  Today, it's down to 22% (according to Business Insider) as EU members diversified their sources of supply in the aftermath of past interruptions in Russian gas deliveries.

Indeed, the EU has long since recognized its vulnerability to energy markets crisis's and it wasn't hiding its work on solving this issue.

 

Speaking of which, what came out of that plan to bypass Russia monopoly? iirc it was suppose to directly connect Turkmenistan to EU, through Caspian sea, South Caucuses and Black sea(I think at one point it was considered to go through Ukraine\Crimea), to avoid Russia playing a third party getting a cut and control.

 

 

You mean the Trans-Caspian pipeline I think.  Actually there are two pertinent projects.  One is the Trans-Caspian and the second is the TANAP pipeline.  The Trans-Caspian has been tied up with environmental complaints from Iran and Russia (which is totally ****ing laughable).  Both Iran and Russia have taken a legal stance that any sub-sea pipeline would require approval from all five littoral states (Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan and Kazahkstan).  I'm not sure what the status is but I suspect it's still being blocked by Russia and Iran.

 

 

In Baku, Trans-Caspian would link to the South Caucasus Pipeline (Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum pipeline), and through this with the planned $8-billion Trans-Anatolian natural gas pipeline (TANAP).  The TANAP project, controlled by Azerbaijan's state energy firm SOCAR, takes Azeri gas from the Shah Deniz gas field to Turkey and to markets in Europe.  Total and Statoil pulled out of the TANAP project so Turkey upped its share.  The construction is planned to start in 2014 and to be completed by 2018.   The initial planned capacity of the pipeline would be 16 billion cubic metres per year with the ability to up the capacity to 60 billion cubic metres.

 

The exact route isn't established but one branch would connect Turkey to Greece and the other to Bulgaria where the two branches will connect to existing pipelines.

[Sarex]

 Meanwhile Kievan usurpers make preparations for bloody supress of Crimean rebellion. It's political suicide - this provoke fullscale Russian invasion,  Kiev just do what US demand from they (US do want test battle capability of Russian army ). Poor Ukrainians, they become  cannon fodder for NATO.

 

That would be suicide, I don't think the Ukrainians are that crazy. What happened to Serbia in 99' would be small potatoes in comparison.

[Mor]

Seriously, why would they bother, in a million years, to bus some random woman around for propaganda. And why would the BBC report on it even if it's just one of their moronic social media non events doing it.

Because Russian has been known todo that before, during its own elections and because we are familiar with Russian propaganda. Show me a Russian who will not say that FOX news is biased(which it is) though they don't realize that All Russian major mass media is Fox news in that regard.

 

Also I don't recall you arguing against Oby crap in the other thread, most of which turned as nothing more then social media crap(and Russian propaganda crap).

Edited March 8, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

The Trans-Caspian has been tied up with environmental complaints from Iran and Russia (which is totally ****ing laughable).  Both Iran and Russia have taken a legal stance that any sub-sea pipeline would require approval from all five littoral states (Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan and Kazahkstan).  I'm not sure what the status is but I suspect it's still being blocked by Russia and Iran.

Of course they are, why would Russia or its ally give up on a chance on holding EU balls. Also why would Rusia give up its lukrtave deal on buying Turkmenistan gas cheaply and selling it to EU at higher cost.

 

Also I was talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Stream

 

In Baku, Trans-Caspian would link to the South Caucasus Pipeline (Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum pipeline), and through this with the planned $8-billion Trans-Anatolian natural gas pipeline (TANAP).

...

The exact route isn't established but one branch would connect Turkey to Greece and the other to Bulgaria where the two branches will connect to existing pipelines.

I read something about Turkey planing on connecting with new Israel-Cyprus-Italy pipeline, which would make their plan much more lucrative.

 

That would be suicide, I don't think the Ukrainians are that crazy. What happened to Serbia in 99' would be small potatoes in comparison.

yeah, though you have to admire them not bending over to the Russian bullying. Edited March 8, 2014 by Mor

[Volourn]

 "no-one bats even their eyes with the many times the UN, America, EU etc. do so"

 

Nobody bats an eye? What world do you live in?

[Mor]

Since you are concerned with "extremely fraud logic", might I suggest the idea of: "tu quoque" "Bandwagon as an answer to your question. Both of which frequently used here with the apples and oranges deflection, which I covered in my recent post:

Iraq? Sure, looking at Iraq in retrospect there is a lot US can be and has been criticized for. However, to keep things in context. Iraq was the state that after eight years war with one neighbor, waited two years to go to war with another, attempting to annex it. A country who had a history of use of chemical weapons against its neighbor and its own populace. Who part of its surrender agreement agreed on disarmament and almost decade later, several UN Security Council resolutions, many issues with inspection and transparency came an un popular expensive war.

 

So on one hand we have years of provocation, international community attempts to resolve the issue and Iraqi noncompliance, which finally led to a war. On the other we have Russia taking illegal unilateral action within another sovereign state whose sovereignty and territorial integrity it suppose to assure. Based on fumes of its uncorroborated media reportage. It intervened four days(?) after what it perceived as pro-Russia government was deposed and is now on the way of installing a Pro-Russian one in Crimea.. Which is what they did in Georgia i.e. Rushed in under various pretext(which are laughable considering what they did in the Caucasus) and were nothing more then childlish retaliation for what they perceived as West move against their interests in Yugoslavia..

i.e. deflecting from the issue at hand by saying look whose talking, banking on some popular issues, which isn't really comparable. Also known as demagoguery.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Mor

[kgambit]

 

Also I was talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Stream

 

 

The white stream website now says 2020 for completion of stage 1 with the trans-Caspian showing completion in 2019.  The following PDF shows a 2016 completion date with a four year ramp up to full stage 1 flow in 2020.   

 

http://www.osce.org/ashgabat/67922

 

There is also some synergy between White Stream and Nabuco.

[obyknven]

yeah, though you have to admire them not bending over to the Russian bullying.

 Nietzsche — 'That which is falling should also be pushed'. Real reason of Crimean crisis is Ukrainian weakness. In such situation anyone can begin invasion in Ukraine - Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Russia or US.  The Ukrainians can be happy really, be invaded by tolerant Russian bro is better fate than be invaded by someone else.

[Zoraptor]

Also I don't recall you arguing against Oby crap in the other thread, most of which turned as nothing more then social media crap(and Russian propaganda crap).

 

 

Nobody expects Oby to be unbiased, he's not in any way a source of record- plus, I have noscript and video blocked by default, so don't actually see most of what he posts. To some at least the BBC is a source of record though. To be fair, they were not reporting on it entirely seriously, more on the phenomenon, but even that gives it more credibility than it deserves. In any case I find it almost certain that Oby isn't entirely serious either, and is doing it mainly because he finds the reactions of outraged butthurt amusing.

 

Plus it's only ~48 hours since I suggested to Oby that simultaneously ranting about ZOG while praising Jewish newspapers for being unbiased sources was probably not the most consistent approach to take.

[obyknven]

 

Plus it's only ~48 hours since I suggested to Oby that simultaneously ranting about ZOG while praising Jewish newspapers for being unbiased sources was probably not the most consistent approach to take.

 

Many citizens of Israel don't support Zionism. Jew and Zionist is not synonyms.

[Gorgon]

Zionism  was the driving force for creating Israel. Now it's a driving force for never being able to live there in peace, hand in hand with Palestinean extremists to be fair. If you think it determines US forgein policy that's tin foil hat paranoia. 

[obyknven]

Zionism  was the driving force for creating Israel. Now it's a driving force for never being able to live there in peace, hand in hand with Palestinean extremists to be fair. If you think it determines US forgein policy that's tin foil hat paranoia. 

I use term ZOG ( as one of modern myths) only for show difference between US elites and US people.

[licketysplit]

EU and America need to treat Putin like the loud dog he is, all bark and no bite. He's concerned about his image in Russia, nothing more. Let him froth at the mouth and make threats. In the end it's all bluster, and he'll have to scuttle back to the oil money that put him in office and deal with a discontent civilian population.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Plus it's only ~48 hours since I suggested to Oby that simultaneously ranting about ZOG while praising Jewish newspapers for being unbiased sources was probably not the most consistent approach to take.

 

Many citizens of Israel don't support Zionism. Jew and Zionist is not synonyms.

 

 

Perhaps some 2nd or 3rd generation Jewish Israelites don't support it, but it's safe to say that the vast vast majority of Jews who landed in Israel during the 20th century supported Zionism.  That said, no, being Jewish definitely doesn't mean you're a Zionist. And that said, Zoraptor makes a sound point.

 

I probably know more Jews that are against Zionism than for it, even amongst the active orthodox community. Many Zionist Jews go out of their way to denounce non Zionist Jews as not even being Jewish at times, and it is the Zionists who for better or worse give the largest impressions in most folks minds as to what the Jewish people want. So much so that a lot of people assume all Jews are pro-Israel. They're also the ones that pull the anti-Semitic card out whenever someone criticisms them. A good documentary to watch on that particular subject and a study in brainwashing/propaganda in general is called 'Defamation'.

[obyknven]

EU and America need to treat Putin like the loud dog he is, all bark and no bite. He's concerned about his image in Russia, nothing more. Let him froth at the mouth and make threats. In the end it's all bluster, and he'll have to scuttle back to the oil money that put him in office and deal with a discontent civilian population.

While China support Russia all Western treats is just a wet dreams of US/EU powerless politicians.

[obyknven]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

 

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.
2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.
3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.
4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

Sadly modern US politicans looks like total ****** in comparision with him.

[Agiel]

Having kept my eyes on an upcoming gem from Ukraine, Cradle, for quite some time I was a bit distressed when the EuroMaidan protests took a violent turn and the developers were still on radio silence over the past couple of months. Thankfully, they've recently broke the silence on VKontakte (from my understanding a European answer to Facebook). I've plugged the post into Google translate and gotten something approximating comprehensibility:

 

 

 

We have for you some statistics . Half of Public subscribers - the Russians . The other half - the Ukrainians . Creators engine Unigine, which is based on Cradle - the Russians . We developers Cradle - Ukrainians , a native of the eastern regions of Ukraine (Lugansk, Donetsk) . Above the graphic and audio content for the game runs many Ukrainians , Russians and a few even one Turk . Their hands to create a cozy , soothing world robotic Mongolia. In light of these facts, the message " Russia intends to send troops to Ukraine " looks to us strange and creepy.

We are confident that the subscribers of this Public hardly any people who support the idea of ​​a military invasion . If there are, then they need to know that they will make a mistake absurd misunderstandings PUBLIC . You guys do not need to wait for the Cradle - in this story you will find a close and clear ideas.

Most of our subscribers read this text , probably agree with us and think: " Indeed, the Kremlin king crazy ." But this is not enough . We ask you to help us resist the flow of lies (http://fakecontrol.org/), pouring out of the pro-government Russian TV channels. Help us break the artificial TV image " proplachennyh insidious nationalist extremists West encroaching on the rights of ethnic Russian ." It is this image used now people in the Russian government as a justification for their invasion.

Look at us. We developers Cradle, are such " ethnic Russian " . Know Ukrainian and Russian languages ​​, and use them . Do not feel the pressure and we press on anyone . Live and work in his own pleasure, and do not need no protection of any protection. We, along with hundreds of thousands of their compatriots expelled from Ukraine thief and murderer , Viktor Yanukovych. Now , just the whole world going to rebuild their country . Otmoem Maidan from the blood , it will pave the new paving stones , and return to his favorite cause - game development .

Guys, Russians , if you like , and we find the idea of ​​Russia's invasion of Ukraine disgusting and ridiculous , please subscribe to the petition (https://secure.avaaz.org/ru/petition/Uvazhaemyy_Prezi ..). Well, repost , desirable.

 

Original post from vkontakte: http://vk.com/cradlegame

 

For now I'm just overwhelmed by the news that these fine folks have managed to stay safe through all the events over the past few weeks.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Agiel

[licketysplit]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

 

 

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

Sadly modern US politicans looks like total ****** in comparision with him.

 

Wait a minute...do you Russians think Putin is anything other than a bought and paid for gangster? If so, we have better Media than you do.

[Gorgon]

Doesn't matter if he is wrong as long as he is strong. Me Tarzan, you Jane. 

[Mor]

Not so strong as the his media paints him to be, it mostly the personality cult he built and maintained since his better years after Chechnya 2 and before the economical crisis..

 

Also the Ukrainians has a different picture for him it include mustache (and shirt on )

[Zoraptor]

EU and America need to treat Putin like the loud dog he is, all bark and no bite. He's concerned about his image in Russia, nothing more. Let him froth at the mouth and make threats. In the end it's all bluster, and he'll have to scuttle back to the oil money that put him in office and deal with a discontent civilian population.

 

Considering that he has, without any doubt, acted and acted decisively that analysis doesn't stand up to even the most cursory examination. He's bitten, he's won, and there's essentially nothing practical anyone can do now except shout and wave their arms in the air while spouting the usual do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do blather about sovereign integrity and the like- ignoring that Crimea has actually voted to separate from Ukraine multiple times previously (1991, 1992, 1995).

[obyknven]

Kievan usurpers fall  into hysteria. They really make preparation for war against Crimean republic, info 146%. War begin in next week.

 

Serbian bro come in Crimea too.

http://youtu.be/pFlLN9E2kcY

 

Conflict become more and more global, it's looks like begin of WW3. 

[obyknven]

Ukrainian base in Crimea live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLi25S-Kv8&feature=share

 

Ukrainian spy plane near positions of Crimean forces.

http://youtu.be/cdU611LWqwA 

[Cultist]

Just a quick reminder to those Democratic Ukraine vs Totalitarian Russia enthusiasts - every time you support new Ukraine goverment you support this nice people:

"Svoboda" party is one of three new coalition members that comprise Ukraine goverment for the time being.

Same goes for this opressed peaceful Euromaidan activists:

It is comfortable to ignore them and pretend they are the minority, but you can't support one without another because they ARE the goverment.