How do classes differentiate outside of combat?

[PrimeJunta]

@JFSOCC I have a feeling it might not be all that grim. Different classes tend towards different ability and skill mixes. If the checks are connected to the abilities and skills, class will influence them indirectly. So a Wilderness Lore check will favor druids and rangers even if it's not specifically tied to those classes.

 

Personally I would prefer it that way, like with the "holy warrior order stronghold quest" from the other thread.

[JFSOCC]

I guess so. There's just a whole lot that now seems exceptionally unlikely to be seen in the game. I suppose it's a call to action for modders if I want it changed, added or improved.

[FlintlockJazz]

I can sctually see benefits to there not being too much class-specific dialogue.  I mean, I'd get quite annoyed when people made assumptions about my character because of their class (which in those other games they often had no reason to know anyway).  For instance, my 'rogue' might be more a scout or an assassin and not at all interested in thievery and never do anything to make people think he was a thief, never once committing a single theft, and so for him to be refered to as a thief would be annoying.

 

Basing it on attributes and your previous actions is much better imho, and I prefered the PST method anyway.  Do random people come up to you in the street and pub and refer to you by your job title?  Well, apart from the cops and soldiers and other appropriate roles of course.  "Ah, a receptionist, I've been waiting for one such as you..."

 

EDIT:  I mean, I've always prefered it when the attributes are done in a way that enables you to define the person you're playing as, and so being responded to by those things seems a much better way of doing things.  A guy with higher might is going to look more like a brute than low might guy is regardless of the class!

Edited February 4, 2014 by FlintlockJazz

[JFSOCC]

There are still many ways in which acknowledging class doesn't have to lead to stereotyping. As you said you could select conversation options to determine your own personality. just having the option available would already make a difference.

[Sir Chaox]

I think delivering quests in the way Josh described will be more fair, but I get what you're missing out on JFSOCC.

 

More fair because I am missing out on content due to my skills, attributes, and personality that I worked on throughout the game versus missing content because of the class I chose at the very start. Feels more limiting in the latter option. Hopefully, the game will consist of enough situations based around the first to make up for the atmosphere or individuality of our characters lost in omitting the second.

[Failion]

How would a rangers pet differentiate outside of combat like a goat? 

 

[rjshae]

There could be some class differentiation made by the types of stores you can access. For example, a Rogue gets access to a black market shoppe by demonstrating his skills; priests and paladins allows access beneficial potions at a temple; wizards are permitted to trade with the magic guild; rangers can trade with the elven clan, etc.

[Lephys]

There could be some class differentiation made by the types of stores you can access. For example, a Rogue gets access to a black market shoppe by demonstrating his skills; priests and paladins allows access beneficial potions at a temple; wizards are permitted to trade with the magic guild; rangers can trade with the elven clan, etc.

That's a good idea! More like credentials than personality/social reaction cues. Of course, you can have those too, but they just wouldn't really be all that numerous. Most people don't care what you do or don't do, but certain people may have something against Ciphers, for example. "Ciphers killed my family!", to go with a cliche example, "So I don't trust those powers and have a horrendously skewed sense of what they are, and I hate them!"

 

But, yeah, you're not just going to be strolling around having everyone react 11 different ways, based on your class or anything. I don't think class really beckons for that level of reactivity anyway.

 

I think what Josh said makes sense. I mean, hopefully there's a bit of class-specific reactivity throughout the game, but, your level of intellect or your strength or Resolve is going to affect a lot more situations than what powers you happen to cultivate.

 

Well, with the exception of maybe Rangers and Wizards, what with their animal companions and familiars traipsing about with them. 8P. That's still more of a spectacle than it is a demand for significant reactionary variation, beyond "Hey, no animals in me tavern!" and such, hehe.

[Wombat]

This is not a new info and I think Sawyer is being polite along with the other thread, where he even stepped in making sure they are not making many useless abilities (What kinds of designers should intentionally do it in the first place?).  Also, I was not a fan of IWD2 class dialogues, which basically just reminded me what class I chose outside of the character sheet screen and often stepped on my image of the character/class.  Naturally, I'm more interested in disposition/reputation dialogues.

[Lephys]

I think one of the most important things is that your mere class choice doesn't need to step on anything else's toes in determining dialogue options and reactions, etc. Two really good ways I could see class functioning are:

 

A) As a common reputation/individual-rep (can't remember what that's called in PoE) factor.

B) As, essentially, a knowledge skill.

 

For example (regarding point B), "There's a group of people who have been assaulting the populous and stealing things. They're a menace! They're apparently wielders of arcane magic, so we have no way of stopping them!" (PC is a Wizard -- you get some more specific info about the events, then, there's a knowledge:Wizard check, basically. You're a Level 3 Wizard, so you pass it).

 

"My dear mayor, you've been duped. Albeit, cleverly duped. To the untrained eye, it would definitely seem that these folk are wielding arcane magic. But, I assure you, they are frauds. (Explain further)"

 

That sort of thing. Of course, there could always just be an actual knowledge skill, separate from class, for such things. BUT, since class powers are distinct shapings of soul energies, I would think Wizards would generally know the most about how Wizard powers function, etc.

 

Of course, that particular example doesn't really apply to ALL classes, I don't guess, since... well, how do you tell if someone's a Fighter, based solely on lore? They don't exactly wield any distinct powers that I know of. *shrug*

 

Annnnywho...

Edited February 4, 2014 by Lephys

[Ffordesoon]

I've said variations of this elsewhere, but:

 

In D&D, particularly in the earlier editions, you are your class. 3E and above introduced a fairly large amount of flexibility, but at the end of the day, survivability and roleplaying are still at odds with each other. Even in Pathfinder, builds are only dynamic inasmuch as you can stack levels in the static classes on top of each other, and that still means a Level 1 character is stuck as one particular class and more or less must hie to the recommended specs of that class until taking a level in another class is possible.

 

(This is assuming a Level 1 character can survive until Level 2, the odds of which are pretty low in pre-4E D&D and/or Pathfinder because your defensive options at Level 1 are basically "hide in the corner," "don't get hit," or "play a Barb" - but I digress.)

 

This works well in PnP play, and not so well in a cRPG, because a good DM can dynamically adjust to her players' needs and wants in order to craft a better story, and a computer can't.

 

In PoE, your class is more like a dream job. It's the answer to the question "What do you want to be when you grow up?" In real life, if you answered that question by saying you wanted to be X, well, you might not have the skillset for it. As PoE is not real life, you are granted the skillset for it simply by saying that's what you want to be.

 

Now, to illustrate my point, let's apply PoE's rules to a dream job. Mine is to be a writer, and that happens to be an excellent example, so let's say I'm a Level 1 Writer. That's still a pretty broad category. Will I be a writer of fiction? Nonfiction? An essayist? A poet? A travel writer? If I'm a writer of fiction, well, what kind of fiction? Horror? Literary? SF? Fantasy? Humor? And what will be my medium of choice? Novels? Comics? TV? Movies? Multiple media? Every single one of these subcategories requires a different set of attributes, talents, skills, etc., and leveling equates to the process of finding out just who I want to be and becoming that person.

 

(Yes, yes, I know that's very Tony Robbins. Touch the tip of your index finger to the tip of your thumb, and you will see the number of f**ks I give.)

 

As for the separation of combat and non-combat skills, replace the word "combat" with the word "work." Suddenly, the division becomes "skills I need/want for my job" and "skills I need/want for my life." This is a division that makes intuitive sense to me. Just because you're a total keep-calm-and-carry-on professional at work doesn't mean you're Rico Suavé in non-work-related interactions. You might be the kind of person who says things that happen outside work are "non-work-related interactions" out loud, for example.

 

The same set of stats influencing both sets of skills also works for me, because the people who are the best at a thing are often not very good at going outside their area of expertise, but their area of expertise is often less a column than a pyramid, if you see what I mean. A surgeon will probably be good at more than just surgery, because the skillset surgery requires - knowledge of anatomy, a high amount of manual dexterity, the ability to focus on a detail-oriented task to the exclusion of all else, a strong stomach, patience, et cetera - translates into other areas of life. Several of the aforementioned skills apply equally well to cooking, for instance.

 

I hope my point is clear to you all, because I'm tired of writing this post, and I'm not doing a second draft* unless someone pays me, dammit.

 

* - FULL DISCLOSURE: I did, however, do a few readability passes on this, because I am OCD as heck, y'all.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Ffordesoon

[Lephys]

^ Well-put, Ffordesoon.

 

If I may borrow your Writer example to use it in regard to hard-coded class-checks, you wouldn't, for example, walk into a town and have people run out and say "Oh good! A writer! Come quickly!". However, if you looked really intimidating (be it from gear and/or stature/muscle tone/what-have-you), then someone might reactively beg your assistance with some conflict, regardless of your class.

 

Of course, that's not to say that when someone needs writing/scribing related stuff done, the fact that you're a writer wouldn't easily come up (if you wanted it to, especially) and be pertinent.

 

I'm actually really liking the idea of class checks sort of functioning as skill checks on sets of specific knowledge/ability. I mean, you could still have knowledge skills, separately, that overlap a bit. You could have Knowledge: Arcana without being a Wizard. But, a Wizard who first-hand wields arcane power would probably still know many things that some scholar who cannot/does not use such powers would not, and would definitely be able to meddle with certain things that someone with mere study-knowledge would not (ancient artifact built by a Wizard, for example, that needs to be stopped with Wizardly-channeled energy).