What does "mature" mean, anyway?

[PrimeJunta]

A statement can be racist or not. There is no "because". Tolkien statement doesn't diminish any race, he is descripting a fictional race using real life parallel. How is that racist?

Now, that's better. Not good enough, though.

 

Once more.

 

Orcs are the evil race, correct?

In his letter, Tolkien explicitly connects Orcs with Mongols, correct?

 

How is connecting a specific ethnie -- Mongols -- with an explicitly evil race -- Orcs -- not a racist connection?

 

It sounds to me that your threshold for racism are as high as your standards for versimilitude in fantasy are low, man. Absurdly high. And absurdly low.

 

I didn't say some of my "best friends", come on they are black after all.

Google "some of my best friends are black." It's a cliché. You just did it. I was referencing it.

 

So stop looking for something I didn't write. I clearly stated "attractive" not "sexually attractive".

Sorry, Sharp_one. Language just doesn't work that way. Words have multiple meanings, and you always have to parse out the one intended from context.

 

My sex is like right there in my profile...

I wasn't interested enough to check your profile.

 

Yet you still specifically write to me, I'm just trying to be polite.

So, casually insulting people instead of addressing their points counts as "polite" in Poland? I'll keep that in mind next time I swing by.

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah i read it and it makes no sense.

You can say the exact same statement about gay people. "A gay male sees all women as the "female" sex i.e. members of a group, rather than individuals whom you may or may not find sexually attractive."

I think you're trying to take the moral high ground for no reason whatsoever.

Do you see ethnicity as equally fundamental to sexual attraction as sex? Just asking.

[PrimeJunta]

So, if I like redheads that makes me hairist? If I like green eyes I'm eyeist?

"Redheads" or "green-eyed women" are not an ethnicity. They're particular physical features. That doesn't carry the same kind of baggage.

 

That said, if you said "There is not a single red-haired woman I could find attractive," I would find that... not exactly racist, but definitely off. Wouldn't you?

 

When this crap will start to feel ridiculous to you? There ARE different races with different visual features, pretending we are all the same is and will always be idiotic and political correctness is and will always be idiotic.

Which, of course, is not what I was saying. You didn't say "I like green-eyed women." You said "There is not a single black woman I could find attractive." That, Sharp_one, is a racist statement, any way you parse it.

[Karkarov]

The doody is piling up.  Tolkein wasn't writing a book about racism or social issues, he was writing a fantasy epic.  Will his personal feelings as a person color his writing somewhat? Of course.  But was he thinking about politics when writing his books?  Was he thinking about social issues?  Was he trying to make some sort of statement about his views?  No, no, and no.

 

When people read that hard into his (or anyone's stories for that matter) when the writer did not intend these types of issues to be discussed or disseminated .... well, you are guilty of injecting your politics into their writing.  Which means you are seeing what you want to see, not what the author wrote.

 

That said these last few pages have been fairly crude, insulting, and flamey on all sides.  Maybe we should all just agree to not agree and move on?

 

Also please stop Junta, saying you don't find Ethnicity X attractive is not racist.  It is just you stating you don't find them attractive for whatever reason.  Racist is saying ethnicity X is too stupid to do basic algebra, or ethnicity Y lack morals and are just criminals and scum.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Karkarov

[Cubiq]

Do you see ethnicity as equally fundamental to sexual attraction as sex? Just asking.

I do.

But that doesn't mean others have to as well.

Like gay people.

[PrimeJunta]

The doody is piling up.  Tolkein wasn't writing a book about racism or social issues, he was writing a fantasy epic.  Will his personal feelings as a person color his writing somewhat? Of course.  But was he thinking about politics when writing his books?  Was he thinking about social issues?  Was he trying to make some sort of statement about his views?  No, no, and no.

I never argued otherwise.

 

When people read that hard into his (or anyone's stories for that matter) when the writer did not intend these types of issues to be discussed or disseminated .... well, you are guilty of injecting your politics into their writing.  Which means you are seeing what you want to see, not what the author wrote.

You're always "guilty" of injecting your politics into whatever you read. That said, it is possible to tease out the author's politics from his writing too. In fact, systematic analysis like that is the only tool we have of disentangling your politics from the writer's politics.

 

That said these last few pages have been fairly crude, insulting, and flamey on all sides.  Maybe we should all just agree to not agree and move on?

Sorry, Karkarov, but no can do on my part. I'm still waiting for Merlkir's response, which he promised. I wouldn't have written that series of posts if he hadn't made that promise, and I hope he'll honor it. It was a quite a bit of work.

 

However, I apologize if I've insulted anyone. I have been making an extra effort to stay civil, address only the statements people make, and not the people themselves. If I've failed, I'm sorry and I'll try to do better.

[PrimeJunta]

 

Do you see ethnicity as equally fundamental to sexual attraction as sex? Just asking.

I do.

But that doesn't mean others have to as well.

Like gay people.

 

Wow. For once, I am lost for words.

Edited January 1, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Cubiq]

 

Do you see ethnicity as equally fundamental to sexual attraction as sex? Just asking.

I do.

But that doesn't mean others have to as well.

Like gay people.

 

Wow. For once, I am lost for words.

And thus prove my point.

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah lets keep separate topics in separate topics, you are embarrassing yourself.

Now to the point. Hmm, let's see:

Worgs are an evil race.

Worgs visualization is based on wolves.

Are you claiming Tolkien sees wolves as evil?

HELL YES!

 

Seriously, do you even have to ask this?

 

Hounds = good.

Wolves = evil.

Horses = good.

Cats = evil.

 

Tolkien associated major meanings with various animals.

 

Carcharoth ring any bells? What about Draugluin?

 

 

He was descripting their looks, not saying "Well basically Orcs are Mongols because they are lesser races and we should put them all in gas chambers".

 

You keep bringing the Ku Klux Klan and gas chambers into this. News flash: you do not need to want to actually exterminate a group of people to qualify as racist. It's enough to consider them intrinsically inferior. I'm claiming Tolkien did the latter about any number of groups -- Jews, blacks, Mongols/Turks/Arabs -- while explicitly and firmly disassociating himself from the former.

 

 

Yeah, stop telling me what to do.

Maybe you should Bling racists and try to figure out if a racist person would have black friends.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

Yet you need to do this correctly or you will embarrass yourself or look like an a**hole.

 

True, that. The same goes for choice of words when expressing yourself, though. For example, if you did indeed mean 'attractive' in the broadest possible sense in both cases, then I would suggest you expressed yourself poorly in the first case. Mentioning 'banging' in the same paragraph would cause most readers to assume you meant 'sexually attractive.'

 

Put another way, if someone misunderstands you, I would suggest you consider the possibility that the fault was with your choice of words, not the other party's reading skillz.

 

 

Yet you specifically complained about not knowing, make up your mind.

 

Why would I bother to check it, since the question was whether you're attracted to girls or not, not whether you're male or female or not?

 

 

Yes, naming things by their name and being honest is a big thing right now in Poland.

Good, looks like I'll fit right in, then.

 

Edit: I hate this POS editor.

Edited January 1, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Wintersong]

As to the other point, "there is not a single black girl I could find sexually attractive" is racist. For one thing, it demonstrates that you see black girls primarily as black girls, i.e., members of a group, rather than individuals whom you may or may not find sexually attractive. That makes the categorical statement, in and of itself, racist. FWIW, "I find black girls sexually attractive" is also racist, for the same reason.

This thread is full of "WTF"s so I'll just stick to this one.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I'm not talking of that floating freak. Everybody find some physical attributes more likeable than others. Some may find brown skin to be sexy while others may not. Some may find asian eyes to be beautiful while others not (some asians actually operate their eyes to look non-asian!!! Racists!!!!!   ) Some like them fat while others thin. Tall or small. Green eyes or... well, does anyone get the idea? I know people who don't find asian women to be attractive/sexually-appealing but they are not racist. Just a mater of preferences. As offensive as "I like chocolate" or "I like vanilla" or "I like dogs" or "I like rain" or...

 

Yes, racist people may use similar words to show their distastes of who they consider inferior or whatever, but it doesn't mean that anyone speaking like that is racist.

Guy A: "I don't like redheads."

Guy B: "Racist!!!"

Guy A: "Er... No? I just don't like the color. But I do like women."

Guy B: " Sexist!!!"

Guy A: "What if I say that I like guns?"

Guy B: "Terrorist!!!!!"

Guy A: 

 

 

What was the thread about?

[PrimeJunta]

 

 

 

Do you see ethnicity as equally fundamental to sexual attraction as sex? Just asking.

I do.

But that doesn't mean others have to as well.

Like gay people.

 

Wow. For once, I am lost for words.

 

And thus prove my point.

 

Hahano.

[PrimeJunta]

Wow, looks like this thing is really flushing them out of the woodwork.

[PrimeJunta]

Haha, you sure that's the analogy you want to make?

[Merlkir]

PrimeJunta, I thought it'd take you longer, so I responded to one of the ridiculously racist and man hating articles someone else linked to. There's overlap, but I'll get to your "critique" in part 2.

 

http://janpospisil.blogspot.cz/2014/01/response-to-critique-of-tolkiens-work-p1.html

[PrimeJunta]

Please post it here. I'm not responding to any off-site stuff.

 

Edit: And "man-hating?" That's... worrying. If you have anything at all to do with the MRA scene, please say so, so I'll put you on my ignore list right away. I want nothing whatsoever to do with that lot.

Edited January 1, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Cubiq]

Hahano.

Yeah.... you're pretty much alone here, on that one.

 

No none here's being racist.

And i urge you to look up a comedian named Reginald D. Hunter on youtube where he talks about middle class white people like you, who think everything is racist.

Maybe it will help you stop being such a socially nervous, politically correct, ironical nazi.

Plus he can make you laugh.

 

Going to bed, work in the morning.

[PrimeJunta]

 

Hahano.

Yeah.... you're pretty much alone here, on that one.

 

No none here's being racist.

And i urge you to look up a comedian named Reginald D. Hunter on youtube where he talks about middle class white people like you, who think everything is racist.

Maybe it will help you stop being such a socially nervous, politically correct, ironical nazi.

Plus he can make you laugh.

 

Going to bed, work in the morning.

 

 

I know the gamer scene has deeply entrenched racism and sexism in it. A few years ago, I would have been alone. Fortunately that's changing. I'm not alone in opposing that culture even on this thread, and of course many of Obsidian's leading lights are pushing to change things too. Better times are a'coming.

[Merlkir]

FFS, I thought writing a post on my blog would make it easier to read. Eh. Also, no, I'm not an MRA, but I do acknowledge there is a reason that movement exists and I do tend to disagree with feminists. Ignore away if you wish.

[PrimeJunta]

FFS, I thought writing a post on my blog would make it easier to read. Eh. Also, no, I'm not an MRA, but I do acknowledge there is a reason that movement exists and I do tend to disagree with feminists. Ignore away if you wish.

 

Close enough for me. 

 

<plonk>

[Merlkir]

Let's block anyone who dares imply men face any kind of hardship in this world! yaaay. \o/ <-----  Progressive and socially conscious Prime Junta, everyone. *claps*  I wonder if many Scandinavians are this brainwashed.

 

Anyway, maturity and stuff.

[okkoko]

oh boy this has turn in to a satirical Conservative nature of human kind analog all based on Tolkien books mixed in intelligent use of stupidity BRAVO MAN STAND TALL GOD BLESS THE HUMAN RACE

[PrimeJunta]

BTW, Sharp_one, you might want to check your profile -- I just checked, and you don't, in fact, list your gender there.

[Merlkir]

If anyone else except PJ, who can't see me now, is interested in my response to his points:

 

http://janpospisil.blogspot.cz/2014/01/response-to-critique-of-tolkiens-work-p2.html

[LadyCrimson]

Hm. From what I can tell, this went from a topic about mature themes in games and what one might like to see/wish game designers would incorporate more often, to a debate about Tolkein in some fashion, to a debate about Tolkein being racist, to ... well, let's just say a fair amount of off-topic debate that's probably better suited for other threads or other places.

 

I think this thread has gone off the rails far enough and reached the end of it's usefulness for now ... the actual topic of mature themes in gaming can be discussed another day, in another thread.