"Flow" in games

[Wrath of Dagon]

From a link on RPS I came across this concept of flow

: a virtual environment that maximizes a player’s potential to attain a state that the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi calls “flow”—a condition of absolute presence and happiness.

 

“Flow,” writes Csikszentmihalyi, “is the kind of feeling after which one nostalgically says: ‘that was fun,’ or ‘that was enjoyable.’ ” Put another way, it’s when the rest of the world simply falls away. According to Csikszentmihalyi, flow is mostly likely to occur during play, whether it’s a gambling bout, a chess match, or a hike in the mountains. Attaining it requires a good match between someone’s skills and the challenges that she faces, an environment where personal identity becomes subsumed in the game and the player attains a strong feeling of control. Flow eventually becomes self-reinforcing: the feeling itself inspires you to keep returning to the activity that caused it.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/11/the-psychology-of-first-person-shooter-games.html

 

I think I've seen this concept before, but now it struck me a being particularly important, since I don't seem to get that much from modern games. For me I got that state the most from KOTORs, so much so I that those are the only games I could play all day long without stopping, and replay several times, which I never do otherwise. There were also about 20 games of that caliber on the original Xbox, and all of the Obsidian games I played I got into that state to some extent, with New Vegas and expansions and Dungeon Siege being the most notable in that respect, but nothing else lately except a few strategy games.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[Tigranes]

Csikszentmihalyi is a well known guy. Just about every other game study, academic and nonacademic, mentions flow. The archetypical formulation basically said that flow occurs when there is the right balance between, say, anxiety and relaxation, a sense of control and a sense of being out of it. It explains, for instance, how one plays the piano; you're not consciously in control of every single note you play if you play a difficult Chopin piece, but you're not out of control, either, etc, etc. It's basically the Goldilocks Theory of psychology.

 

The easiest way to apply it with regard to games is difficulty; but yes, other cases can include having the right number of threads to follow up in an open world RPG (too many quests, too few quests...), which I think in fact Morrowind early-game does not do a great job of, which makes people feel lost, whereas Skyrim has several tight-knit chains to kick you off. It can also be applied to feedback, i.e. how much the player should know about what is happening. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ironically I got really frustrated trying to do all the available Skyrim side quests from the start, especially as most of them just sent you to yet another linear dungeon. I think Oblivion was actually much better in that respect. And when you say "unpronounceable" is well known, I assume you mean among psychology types, I've never heard of him before.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[Monte Carlo]

^ For me this happens most in RTS games nowadays. I'm re-playing BG1/2 though, and really feeling it again.

 

For me, it's like magic: over-analyse it and it disappears. It's just getting that groove of Different Stuff I Love all moving in the same direction.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm trying to play BG2 for the first time now. I got through the first dungeon, OK but didn't seem anything special. Now I'm in the city and kind of bored walking around, so not feeling it so far. Agree with you about RTS, although mine are a bit different. When you get into an exciting battle, you definitely get immersed and get that feeling, but I really wish more action oriented games or an RPG to be like that.

[Keyrock]

[Gorth]

How do you guys pronounce "Csikszentmihalyi"? Doesn't exactly flow easy off the tongue

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Csikszentmihalyi R'lyeh...

[Zoraptor]

That definition of 'flow' is pretty much exactly what I would call 'immersion' in a gaming context- and I'd have gone with flow as being more akin to 'pacing' in a movie or TV. Not exactly unrelated concepts, of course, as it would be difficult to have one without the other, but I see immersion and pacing as being distinct enough to be separate.

 

Then again, I'm not a psychologist.

[Tigranes]

Csiksentmihalyi's answer - and mine, too - would be that what we call immersion depends a great deal on pacing as well, so that pacing is a smaller component of immersion/flow. 

 

What seems surprising from my experience is how there are many elements which, on paper, would do a great deal to break the flow (i.e. when I kept dying in the fight after Myrkul conversation in MOTB and kept having to redo the chat), but you're able to sort of suspend your annoyance for quite significant periods of time in order to try and maintain 'immersion'. It's like when you dash to the toilet while watching an engaging movie, and you try to pay as little attention to the disruption as possible. 

[Azrayel]

A great example of this is Yahtzee's new freeware, side-on survival Lovecraftian-horror game The Consuming Shadow.

 

You've got 72 hours to save not-Britain from the encroaching terror by figuring out a 4-rune banishment ritual.  Every random dungeon (it's a roguelike) contains more clues to the invading God's identity-- it's randomized each time and there are several-- and sometimes occult texts to teach you spells (that eat up your sanity).

 

It gives you xp after every go round (EDIT: to specify, after each death your deeds are scored and it accumulates over play-throughs) and each level gives you a new bonus point to spend on game start in various factors.  As safe towns turn into dungeons an you slowly begin to realize the patterns you're losing time even as you're making strides and getting game-changing equipment.

 

Anyway, enough rant-- I highly recommend you try this if you're someone interested in flow as anxiety v control.

 

http://www.fullyramblomatic.com/conshadow/

 

Also: Mihaly, never heard of him but the wikipedia article already has me hooked.  Thanks for edutaining me, fellow formite.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Azrayel

[Osvir]

How do you guys pronounce "Csikszentmihalyi"? Doesn't exactly flow easy off the tongue

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Csikszentmihalyi R'lyeh...

Chickzent-mihalji?

[Zoraptor]

Csiksentmihalyi's answer - and mine, too - would be that what we call immersion depends a great deal on pacing as well, so that pacing is a smaller component of immersion/flow.

The reason I see them as separate is actually to do with multiplayer. I don't do multiplayer much, but I used to play SSX and BGDA MP in an old flat. I would not describe that as being an 'immersive' experience- there was a lot of out of game stuff going on (trash talking etc) and there was never any real feeling that you weren't actively engaged in playing a game. But it was equally if not more fun and the pacing components and the ability to do complex combinations (in SSX) without thinking about them was still there entirely. On the other hand, if I played SP I would get immersed in the more normal sense- lose track of time etc.

 

I'm not really arguing, just clarifying why I think that way. I simply don't know enough psychology and the necessary technicalities to actually argue.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I wouldn't say immersion is the same as flow, as you can be completely immersed in a movie or a book, but you have no control there. So flow is something unique to an interactive activity like games, and probably has a lot to do with dopamine release as you accomplish things and get rewarded.

[Tigranes]

 

Csiksentmihalyi's answer - and mine, too - would be that what we call immersion depends a great deal on pacing as well, so that pacing is a smaller component of immersion/flow.

The reason I see them as separate is actually to do with multiplayer. I don't do multiplayer much, but I used to play SSX and BGDA MP in an old flat. I would not describe that as being an 'immersive' experience- there was a lot of out of game stuff going on (trash talking etc) and there was never any real feeling that you weren't actively engaged in playing a game. But it was equally if not more fun and the pacing components and the ability to do complex combinations (in SSX) without thinking about them was still there entirely. On the other hand, if I played SP I would get immersed in the more normal sense- lose track of time etc.

 

I'm not really arguing, just clarifying why I think that way. I simply don't know enough psychology and the necessary technicalities to actually argue.

 

 

Yeah, my post got away from me a bit there - the way we're talking about it certainly should be separate, since you can be 'in the flow' without being immersed, as you say. I think some of my most intense moments in that sense come from RTS multiplayer. And when I played in environments when I couldn't really get in the zone - new mouse, for example - there was a noticeable difference in the experience. 

[Oner]

How do you guys pronounce "Csikszentmihalyi"? Doesn't exactly flow easy off the tongue

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Csikszentmihalyi R'lyeh...

Ch(eat)

i(ntimidate, long I)

K (Hard K)

Se(rpentine)

ntM

I(ntimidate again)

h

i(Phone)

y(ou)

I(ntimidate again)

 

It means From StripeSaintMichael, btw.

[Gorth]

 

So, "tjeeksentmeehai-yee"? I think I better stick to familiar languages (insert Monty Python skit here with Hungarian/English dictionary)

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

So, "tjeeksentmeehai-yee"? I think I better stick to familiar languages (insert Monty Python skit here with Hungarian/English dictionary)

 

Well, "tsheeksentmeehai-yee" sounds closer, but you also have to keep in mind that only the first "í" is pronounced similarly to, say, "sea", the others are shorter (intimidate was a fine example). And, of course, it goes without saying that the dash doesn't signify a pause, it's just there for easier comprehension.

 

Meh, easier just to show.

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKc1lQNgrX4 

 

0:06-0:08.