What would PE look like if Obsidian catered to the worst of us?

[Sarex]

A poll can be representative even if you ask only a part of the people. Even the loudest people have only one vote in a poll. Now just some polls to show what people on this forum think (and I give you my word these were the only ones I found, I didn't dump any that showed contrary evidence):

First a poll to show that people on this forum have played all the ID games somewhat equally:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60755-which-infinity-engine-games-did-you-play/?mode=show

 

Now the polls about preference:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61718-favorite-game-and-which-game-do-you-hope-project-eternity-is-most-like/?mode=show

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61810-gameplay-or-story/?mode=show

 

Now a poll about what brought the backers to PE. It is a bit representative of what money Obsidian would have lost if they didn't court the corresponding people:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60125-which-game-hook-brought-you-to-project-eternity-and-interests-you-the-most/

 

Now polls can mislead, if the question is leading, if only an unrepresentative cross-section of relevant people can vote or is incentiviced to vote or too few are asked. None of these seem to apply, at least not that totally wrong results would come of it. If you still believe that among backers IWD fans are as numerous as Torments (the only relevant demographic in this discussion), I don't know what to say, except bring some evidence, any, even one link please.

 

 

Wait, where did I say "that among backers IWD fans are as numerous as Torments". Did you mean to say BG? I never believed there are more IWD fans here. As for the polls, 77k in KS versus 200-300 voters in the polls is not worth considering in my opinion. Also when I say that Torment fans are the loudest, I mean that in the way, that in any discussion they will always make it know that P:E is the best game ever made.

 

Yes, yes it is a success if it made 10 thousand dollars profit. However as you acknowledge, you made those figures up. If a company was able to continually make products that made small profits, they would continue to be commercially viable companies. That is how commerce works, if you make a profit it is good.

 

You might mean it as a series, but since Malekith delineated specifically between the two main games in the series, perhaps it was silly to assume he meant the same.

 

And now you're making facts up, where are you getting that it is 'widely accepted' that IWD had the best gameplay? If you're going to try to use an appeal to authority or an appeal to the masses in an argument, you could at least provide the authority, so I could criticise the use of the argument instead of just that the argument isn't even supported.

 

You are clueless.

 

If he meant it as a separate series, then it is my fault, as I misunderstood.

 

Said by the people who made IE games.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Sarex

[Malekith]

Making a profit is the opposite of being a commercial failure.

 

At least one of those links does clearly place Torment ahead of Baldur's Gate. The first Baldur's Gate doesn't even appear on most of these lists, which is why he said "BG is overshadowed by BG2." Torment has more critical acclaim than Baldur's Gate. The game. The game called Baldur's Gate. That's what he said. That's why BG2 and PST are still consistently showered with praise by critics and the rest of the IE games are "Oh yeah they made these other games too, they were also good I guess."

That. I never said PS:T was more successfull than BG2 which is considered by many the best RPG of all time. I even said then even on GoG BG2 is the bestselling GAME of all followed by Torment. And BG2 had better gameplay than both IWDs. The mage duels and the hard counters made encounters like Dragon fights, mind flayer fights etc. In IWD you could just hack&slash with your fighters every opponent to bits. The only thing IWDs had going for them was art,music, atmosphere and cool dungeon design.No one considers IWDs among the best games ever, and IWD2 was more comercial failure than Torment ever was. The sales were way less than projected, they didn't worth any excpansions and Black Isle closed after that.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Malekith

[Sarex]

That. I never said PS:T was more successfull than BG2 which is considered by many the best RPG of all time. I even said then even on GoG BG2 is the bestselling GAME of all followed by Torment. And BG2 had better gameplay than both IWDs. The mage duels and the hard counters made encounters like Dragon fights, mind flayer fights etc. In IWD you could just hack&slash with your fighters every opponent to bits. The only thing IWDs had going for them was art,music, atmosphere and cool dungeon design.No one considers IWDs among the best games ever, and IWD2 was more comercial failure than Torment ever was. The sales were way less than projected, they didn't worth any excpansions and Black Isle closed after that.

 

Then what was the point in saying "Torment has critical acclaim(more than BG)"? Please link me a source for IWD2 being a failure, this is the first time I heard of it.

 

Only thing I could find on IWD2 after a short skim is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icewind_Dale_II#Reception

Edited October 20, 2013 by Sarex

[Chairchucker]

You are clueless.

Now that's just rude! You have offended my honour, sah! I demand satisfaction!

[Sarex]

Now that's just rude! You have offended my honour, sah! I demand satisfaction!

 

Tomorrow at dawn, beneath the clock tower. You may chose your weapon, potatoes or carrots.

[Malekith]

 

That. I never said PS:T was more successfull than BG2 which is considered by many the best RPG of all time. I even said then even on GoG BG2 is the bestselling GAME of all followed by Torment. And BG2 had better gameplay than both IWDs. The mage duels and the hard counters made encounters like Dragon fights, mind flayer fights etc. In IWD you could just hack&slash with your fighters every opponent to bits. The only thing IWDs had going for them was art,music, atmosphere and cool dungeon design.No one considers IWDs among the best games ever, and IWD2 was more comercial failure than Torment ever was. The sales were way less than projected, they didn't worth any excpansions and Black Isle closed after that.

 

Then what was the point in saying "Torment has critical acclaim(more than BG)"?

 

Because no one mentions BG at all?  It hasn't aged all that well, it has some bafling design decisions etc. The one mentioned is BG2. Not BG, not ToB, BG2:SoA.

That they are in the same series doesn't mean that they are the same game. BG2 had the best gameplay among IE games( and not only gameplay, many other things as well) Torment had the rest. My ideal for PE( and i believe the majority of backers) would be a mix of PS:T with BG2. The rest of the IE games were good, but nothing special and to be honest i would prefer them to take clues of Fallout instead of IWD designwise.

[Chairchucker]

Tomorrow at dawn, beneath the clock tower. You may chose your weapon, potatoes or carrots.

I think instead I will hire a dwarf to collapse your house on you.

[Sarex]

Because no one mentions BG at all?  It hasn't aged all that well, it has some bafling design decisions etc. The one mentioned is BG2. Not BG, not ToB, BG2:SoA.

That they are in the same series doesn't mean that they are the same game. BG2 had the best gameplay among IE games( and not only gameplay, many other things as well) Torment had the rest. My ideal for PE( and i believe the majority of backers) would be a mix of PS:T with BG2. The rest of the IE games were good, but nothing special and to be honest i would prefer them to take clues of Fallout instead of IWD designwise.

 

IWD 2 improved on BG combat, so in my opinion it outshines BG gameplay. BG series was a great melting pot and over all it was the best. Torment had a great story and narrative and nothing else.

 

 

I think instead I will hire a dwarf to collapse your house on you.

 

I hope you get 0 xp for it, and I will take my loot down with me.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Sarex

[Chairchucker]

Are you conflating gameplay with combat? While combat is one of the major aspects of gameplay in most of the IE games, (although not PST) it certainly isn't all there is to gameplay.

[jethro]

Wait, where did I say "that among backers IWD fans are as numerous as Torments". Did you mean to say BG? I never believed there are more IWD fans here. As for the polls, 77k in KS versus 200-300 voters in the polls is not worth considering in my opinion.

IWD, in your own words had the best gameplay. Torment stands for the importance of story and alternate solutions. BG2 is somewhere in the middle. If we want to assess the importance of features it makes sense to compare the popularity of those games among the backers. Or ask for the features themselves, see the poll about gameplay versus story: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61810-gameplay-or-story/?mode=show

 

If you just disregard any statistics I can come up with without bringing your own, well, end of discussion. Political voter polls are done with a far smaller percentage of the populace, to not even acknowledge a trend is childish.

 

Also when I say that Torment fans are the loudest, I mean that in the way, that in any discussion they will always make it know that P:E is the best game ever made.

If most people are not of your opinion, they always look like the loudest gang.

[Malekith]

 

Because no one mentions BG at all?  It hasn't aged all that well, it has some bafling design decisions etc. The one mentioned is BG2. Not BG, not ToB, BG2:SoA.

That they are in the same series doesn't mean that they are the same game. BG2 had the best gameplay among IE games( and not only gameplay, many other things as well) Torment had the rest. My ideal for PE( and i believe the majority of backers) would be a mix of PS:T with BG2. The rest of the IE games were good, but nothing special and to be honest i would prefer them to take clues of Fallout instead of IWD designwise.

 

IWD 2 improved on BG combat, so in my opinion it outshines BG gameplay.

I can't argue with that. But it is not universaly held like you said. That BG2 is the best IE game overall and the most succesfull, and that Torment has the best narrative,characters, player agency are prety much uncontested. Sure, there are people who disagree but the general opinion is this.

  Between BG2 vs IWD2 gameplay it's not so clear. Many people prefer BG combat because:

• mage duels(liches included)
• Dragon fights
• illithid fights
• Beholder fights

It all comes down to a single element. HARD COUNTERS. In BG2 if your fighters run over to the enemy mage and tried to killed him, they died. So simple. You had to use the exact counter to his protections to have a hope to win. That lead to mage duels being a chess match between the mages, with one countering the other. For many people that was the best part of IE combat. And it worked outside of mages us well with all my above examples. Sawyer doesn't agree with that. In IWD2 he used soft counters. Result? More smooth curve in the fight, with the fighters ganging up on a mage a viable tactic. Some people liked that. For others (like me) made the encounters completely bland. The only memorable encounter in the whole of IWD2 for me was the Dragon Guardian in the jungle. The rest was completely forgetable. BG2 had dozens of memorable fights.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Malekith

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Because no one mentions BG at all?  It hasn't aged all that well, it has some bafling design decisions etc. The one mentioned is BG2. Not BG, not ToB, BG2:SoA.

That they are in the same series doesn't mean that they are the same game. BG2 had the best gameplay among IE games( and not only gameplay, many other things as well) Torment had the rest. My ideal for PE( and i believe the majority of backers) would be a mix of PS:T with BG2. The rest of the IE games were good, but nothing special and to be honest i would prefer them to take clues of Fallout instead of IWD designwise.

I've started a replay of BGT and I find the BG section to be incredibly tedious. Between the hordes of weaklings that manage to one-shot the early party with slings and the incredibly slow progression rate, it really fails to pull me in as swiftly as BG2 or PST manged to do. IWD1/2 had much better combat than the other IE games but fell behind because the lack of character interaction.

 

I actually preferred the less specific counters in IWD2/3.x and PF to the specific counters in the rest of the IE games/2e because it made having a mage unnecessary(but still optimal) and was generally more intuitive. I don't think that this excludes hard encounters by any means, as the wizard duels in BG2 never sat as well with me as the wizard duels in my PnP experiences.

[Malekith]

 

Because no one mentions BG at all?  It hasn't aged all that well, it has some bafling design decisions etc. The one mentioned is BG2. Not BG, not ToB, BG2:SoA.

That they are in the same series doesn't mean that they are the same game. BG2 had the best gameplay among IE games( and not only gameplay, many other things as well) Torment had the rest. My ideal for PE( and i believe the majority of backers) would be a mix of PS:T with BG2. The rest of the IE games were good, but nothing special and to be honest i would prefer them to take clues of Fallout instead of IWD designwise.

I've started a replay of BGT and I find the BG section to be incredibly tedious. Between the hordes of weaklings that manage to one-shot the early party with slings and the incredibly slow progression rate, it really fails to pull me in as swiftly as BG2 or PST manged to do. IWD1/2 had much better combat than the other IE games but fell behind because the lack of character interaction.

 

I actually preferred the less specific counters in IWD2/3.x and PF to the specific counters in the rest of the IE games/2e because it made having a mage unnecessary(but still optimal) and was generally more intuitive. I don't think that this excludes hard encounters by any means, as the wizard duels in BG2 never sat as well with me as the wizard duels in my PnP experiences.

 

In BG1 you spent most of the time hiking around in the wilderness killing random encounters. In contrast in BG2 you actualy spent that time doing something.

 

As for IWD2, that's why i said hard counters and not encounters. IWD2 in general is more difficult that BG2, but they are different kinds of difficult. Take a fight like Kangaax the Demi-lich. There is no way to beat him using conventional tactics. No matter what level you are, no mater if you have mages-fighters whatever, it doesn't matter. He imprisons you anyway. Unless you find a way to counter his attack you are dead.No middle ground. There are many ways to counter it but you have to find them. That way the battle becomes some kind of puzzle. Imposible to beat until you find the way, but then a cakewalk. Most fights in BG were that way, if not in so extreme way.

 

IWD2 (and PE) won't work that way. The counters will be "soft" In IWD2 you could just hack the enemy mage. His defences lessened your attacks but didn't flat out negated them. There was no protection from magical weapons to make the mage completely invunurable until dispeled. He just gained DR.

For you that is a bonus. For me made most encounters bland. Not that they weren't difficult, just weren't interesting in the same way.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Malekith

[Yonjuro]

 

...

I've started a replay of BGT and I find the BG section to be incredibly tedious. Between the hordes of weaklings that manage to one-shot the early party with slings and the incredibly slow progression rate, it really fails to pull me in as swiftly as BG2 or PST manged to do. IWD1/2 had much better combat than the other IE games but fell behind because the lack of character interaction.

....

 

As for IWD2, that's why i said hard counters and not encounters. IWD2 in general is more difficult that BG2, but they are different kinds of difficult. Take a fight like Kangaax the Demi-lich. There is no way to beat him using conventional tactics. No matter what level you are, no mater if you have mages-fighters whatever, it doesn't matter. He imprisons you anyway. Unless you find a way to counter his attack you are dead.No middle ground. There are many ways to counter it but you have to find them. That way the battle becomes some kind of puzzle. Imposible to beat until you find the way, but then a cakewalk. Most fights in BG were that way, if not in so extreme way.

 

 

 

 Yes, I guess I would like to challenge the idea the IWD1&2 had better combat. I found them both to be very tedious. You got mobbed by hard enemies all the time and I found them utterly boring (though I didn't spend enough time on IWD2 to know whether it gets better later in the game (I think stopped on the third map); I know that IWD1  is tedious all the way through (almost) to the end (when I decided not to bother with the rest of it)).

 

 I thought the combat might only seem tedious because I never got drawn into either story, but now that you mention it, combat in BG (1&2, 2 moreso than 1) both had more of a feeling of solving a puzzle. The IWD's, to me, both felt like the Xvart village in BG1, lots of enemies mob you and you grind through them (except that they hit harder than xvarts so, when you take too much damage run away (the enemies will never think to follow me through this door) and heal (yet again, ::yawn:).

 

 I don't know what anybody saw in either IWD game that was interesting. Of course, maybe I just didn't spend enough time with them to learn how to play them well.

 

 So, those of you that like the combat in IWD, what am I missing? 

[Malekith]

Not one thing you said is true. It failed to reach the numbers that where set for it, so yes it was a commercial failure. Not only was it not overblown but it barely covered it's production cost.

 

Oh, and Sarex, check this link.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?5156-Games-You-Liked-Got-Great-Reviews-Yet-No-One-Played&p=117970&viewfull=1#post117970

[Sarex]

Are you conflating gameplay with combat? While combat is one of the major aspects of gameplay in most of the IE games, (although not PST) it certainly isn't all there is to gameplay.

 

I'm not, but combat is the major (biggest) part of it.

 

IWD, in your own words had the best gameplay. Torment stands for the importance of story and alternate solutions. BG2 is somewhere in the middle. If we want to assess the importance of features it makes sense to compare the popularity of those games among the backers. Or ask for the features themselves, see the poll about gameplay versus story: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61810-gameplay-or-story/?mode=show

If you just disregard any statistics I can come up with without bringing your own, well, end of discussion. Political voter polls are done with a far smaller percentage of the populace, to not even acknowledge a trend is childish.

 

-

 

If most people are not of your opinion, they always look like the loudest gang.

 

 

Those aren't statistics. Ask any developer would he even look at those polls and take anything they say to heart. Those numbers are ridiculously small and as for those political polls you mention, I trust them even less.

-

No, I'm pretty sure they are just loud.

 

 

Not one thing you said is true. It failed to reach the numbers that where set for it, so yes it was a commercial failure. Not only was it not overblown but it barely covered it's production cost.

 

Oh, and Sarex, check this link.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?5156-Games-You-Liked-Got-Great-Reviews-Yet-No-One-Played&p=117970&viewfull=1#post117970

 

 

Who is Scott Warner and what was the profit? If the game had sold as good as he claims the publisher wouldn't have kept quiet while the press reported bad numbers. Seems fishy to me. That post was also made 4 years after the game released.

 

In may 2000 these where the numbers for IE and some other games:

 

Baldur's Gate (all formats) 500,000

BG expansion pack 156,000

Fallout 144,000

Fallout 2 123,000

Diablo 1,300,000

Revenant 37,000

Darkstone 75,000

Ultima IX: Ascension 73,000

Planescape: Torment 73,000

Edited October 21, 2013 by Sarex

[PrimeJunta]

@Sarex: Scott Warner is currently the lead designer of Halo 4. He was a member of the Torment team in 1997. I would consider him a trustworthy source on stuff like that.

 

(Don't believe me? Use your google-fu, grasshopper.)

[Malekith]

 

Who is Scott Warner and what was the profit? If the game had sold as good as he claims the publisher wouldn't have kept quiet while the press reported bad numbers. Seems fishy to me. That post was also made 4 years after the game released.

 

In may 2000 these where the numbers for IE and some other games:

 

Baldur's Gate (all formats) 500,000

BG expansion pack 156,000

Fallout 144,000

Fallout 2 123,000

Diablo 1,300,000

Revenant 37,000

Darkstone 75,000

Ultima IX: Ascension 73,000

Planescape: Torment 73,000

 

He worked at Interplay. The press never mentioned bad numbers, it never does. Forums do so, and i don't think the company would reply to those.

Can you give me a source for these numbers you found and what IWD2 sold according to said source? Curious.

[Sarex]

He worked at Interplay. The press never mentioned bad numbers, it never does. Forums do so, and i don't think the company would reply to those.

Can you give me a source for these numbers you found and what IWD2 sold according to said source? Curious.

 

I found it on a blog but the source is 404ed. I will link you to the blog. IWD2 was after the year 2000. Scroll down to may 16. http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=news-archive-05-2000

[Malekith]

 

He worked at Interplay. The press never mentioned bad numbers, it never does. Forums do so, and i don't think the company would reply to those.

Can you give me a source for these numbers you found and what IWD2 sold according to said source? Curious.

 

I found it on a blog but the source is 404ed. I will link you to the blog. IWD2 was after the year 2000. Scroll down to may 16. http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=news-archive-05-2000

 

I know it. NMA is like RPGCodex2.

But you would consider the words of Scott Warner who worked in the company fishy, while trust some random forum member with sales taken of an unknown sales chart?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Malekith

[Sarex]

That was 13 years, I really doubt you knew how it was then and look what he said, "Something I haven't expected, but hey, who cares!" Meaning that he was surprised that Torment did that badly, meaning he had no agenda.

 

As for the words of Scott Warner they where 3 years after this, so yeah it could have reached those numbers, but who considers a game a success if it needs 4 years to make a profit. Point in fact inxile said them selves that the profits weren't enough to garner a sequel. http://www.vg247.com/2013/04/04/in-bloom-inxile-on-torment-tides-of-numenera/

[Quetzalcoatl]

Where is the source that BG 2 is the best-selling game on GOG?

 

Also, Numenera managed to raise more than Project Eternity, despite inXile being a far less popular developer than Obsidian, despite the fact that inXile had already asked people to donate on a previous project (Wasteland 2) and despite Kickstarter fatigue already setting in. Furthermore, Project Eternity was presented as a spiritual successor of all the IE games, whereas Numenera was only linked to a single IE game. Torment is an oddity, in that it appeals to people who don't necessarily like the oldschool RPG's.   

[Malekith]

That was 13 years, I really doubt you knew how it was then and look what he said, "Something I haven't expected, but hey, who cares!" Meaning that he was surprised that Torment did that badly, meaning he had no agenda.

 

As for the words of Scott Warner they where 3 years after this, so yeah it could have reached those numbers, but who considers a game a success if it needs 4 years to make a profit. Point in fact inxile said them selves that the profits weren't enough to garner a sequel. http://www.vg247.com/2013/04/04/in-bloom-inxile-on-torment-tides-of-numenera/

Having no agenda =! being reliable information.

As for the second part, by now it's moot. It doesn't matter if Torment gained it's fans in 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. Only that it did. When PE is released the (Torment) fans will be there already.

 

 

And to be more on topic, story vs gameplay is a false dichotomy. PE will need both to be a success. But if that is imposible, more people will be happy with great story/writing crap gameplay (PS:T,KotOR2, MotB) than with good gameplay crap story (IWD,ToEE,DS3) We are Obsidian fans after all....

Edited October 21, 2013 by Malekith

[Sarex]

Having no agenda =! being reliable information.

As for the second part, by now it's moot. It doesn't matter if Torment gained it's fans in 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. Only that it did. When PE is released the (Torment) fans will be there already.

 

 

And to be more on topic, story vs gameplay is a false dichotomy. PE will need both to be a success. But if that is imposible, more people will be happy with great story/writing crap gameplay (PS:T,KotOR2, MotB) than with good gameplay crap story (IWD,ToEE,DS3) We are Obsidian fans after all....

 

I think P:E has a lot to learn story wise from Torment that was never in question and I agree in most cases story>gameplay, but never the less I still want it to have great gameplay.

[Malekith]

 

Having no agenda =! being reliable information.

As for the second part, by now it's moot. It doesn't matter if Torment gained it's fans in 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. Only that it did. When PE is released the (Torment) fans will be there already.

 

 

And to be more on topic, story vs gameplay is a false dichotomy. PE will need both to be a success. But if that is imposible, more people will be happy with great story/writing crap gameplay (PS:T,KotOR2, MotB) than with good gameplay crap story (IWD,ToEE,DS3) We are Obsidian fans after all....

 

I think P:E has a lot to learn story wise from Torment that was never in question and I agree in most cases story>gameplay, but never the less I still want it to have great gameplay.

 

We all do. No one (in his right mind at least) would say that PS:T combat was the best it could be, or expect P:E to have similar combat. As Sawyer and Ziets have said BG2 is the balance they want to achieve between dialogue/combat. Such a huge combat centric game with PS:T combat would be boring.

I just hope that Sawyer improves on IWD2 encounter design because P:E will follow the same principles(his) and i found IWD2 battles unmemorable.Not bad, just not interesting.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Malekith