How can they make P:E interesting at 'Epic' levels?

[Lephys]

Frak Epic. I hate that word. It skews expectations and does more harm than good.

 

I want ENGAGING.

Scaling of itemes or levels and big differences between levels/tiers only create problems.

Agreed. Well... to be clear, there's nothing wrong with the word epic, I don't think. If it's applied to something of a grand scale. Frodo's travels from his little hobbit hole all the way to Mt. Doom? An epic journey. His (well... Bilbo's) mithril chain mail? Not epic. Cool and protective, but not epic. It doesn't level mountains, or produce something equivalent to all the events of Frodo's journey that whole way.

 

So, epicness, in a narrative? Fine. Epicness of an object? Meh. That's been a pretty crap application ever since it was first applied in an official manner (I blame MMOs, even though I don't know that they were the first).

 

Epicness is what you DO, what you ACHIEVE with what you have. It's not the stuff you have that inherently achieves great things. Like JFSOCC said, taking down (as an actual mortal with limited resources) 15 combatants that COULD all potentially kill you is far more epic than waving a Sword of God-Killing to deal enough damage to slay a god.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Frak Epic. I hate that word. It skews expectations and does more harm than good. I want ENGAGING.Scaling of itemes or levels and big differences between levels/tiers only create problems.

Agreed. Well... to be clear, there's nothing wrong with the word epic, I don't think. If it's applied to something of a grand scale. Frodo's travels from his little hobbit hole all the way to Mt. Doom? An epic journey. His (well... Bilbo's) mithril chain mail? Not epic. Cool and protective, but not epic. It doesn't level mountains, or produce something equivalent to all the events of Frodo's journey that whole way.So, epicness, in a narrative? Fine. Epicness of an object? Meh. That's been a pretty crap application ever since it was first applied in an official manner (I blame MMOs, even though I don't know that they were the first).Epicness is what you DO, what you ACHIEVE with what you have. It's not the stuff you have that inherently achieves great things. Like JFSOCC said, taking down (as an actual mortal with limited resources) 15 combatants that COULD all potentially kill you is far more epic than waving a Sword of God-Killing to deal enough damage to slay a god.

I think what is Epic is determined by the setting. In FONV, a lone wanderer managing to fend off several Deathclaws is an incredibly epic feat. In NWN2, ending a curse created by a foul god is an epic feat. I don't believe the power levels of the characters involved should be compared, as they are from radically different settings.

 

From what information is available, PE's power curve will be similar to 3.5e/PF, so applying real world logic in what an individual can accomplish may not pan out, seeing as individuals in PE can use the power of their souls to perform supernatural feats and will likely be superhuman in real world terms.

Edited October 11, 2013 by KaineParker

[rjshae]

 

Something I wouldn't mind playing is a game based on a family heritage.

 

You start off with the character in the current game; after much struggle he gains a stronghold, power, and a record of achievement. Then he settles down and has a parcel of kids. Maybe a disaster happens and the family becomes scattered to the four winds: the second game plays the role of one of those kids trying to figure out what happened, working to locate family members and recover her family name, then gaining revenge on the blackheart who devastated her family. The third game could be about a black-sheep cousin who became lost to the family. His adventures are about what shaped his destiny, and how his soul is tied back to the originating character.... &c.

 

If you build a heritage plot in this manner you don't necessarily need to scale the game to epic levels, but you still create a story that links together between the different releases.

 

I kind of like this idea but for the fact that it sounds like a lot of railroading. What if my character doesn't want to have kids? What if my character has no love interest, or my character is gay, or my character is a psychopath who would sooner butcher and devour a potential mate rather than produce offspring with him/her? What if my character just prefers the life of the wanderer over the ol' ball and chain, finding the idea of settling down with husband/wife and a gaggle of brats absolutely nauseating? 

 

Basically, the sequel would all hinge on your character being the family type. Not that games like BG2 didn't railroad you to the point of absurdity, but in general I think that's something to avoid if you can.

 

As a player you wouldn't need to be concerned about having a family. All you need to do is make it to the end of the first game, whereupon the writers can author an epilogue based upon the character you played. Granted, the corner cases you presented would make it a challenge.

[Nonek]

Personally I like there to be counters available for a well prepared antagonist, the archmage striding along secure in his many spells of protection is suddenly struck by a crossbow bolt, crafted of rare weirdwood that kills magic and nearly kills him. The noble lord, master of the land and great hero is scratched on the hand while accepting obeisance, and begins to sicken and die of an exotic poison. Emphasise that for all our power and preparation we are all mortal, and a crafty opponent can affect us just as much as we can affect him, power and life are both fleeting.

 

Eventually it becomes a chess game, move and counter move, where each misstep and success breeds consequences that one must live with or die from.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Personally I like there to be counters available for a well prepared antagonist, the archmage striding along secure in his many spells of protection is suddenly struck by a crossbow bolt, crafted of rare weirdwood that kills magic and nearly kills him. The noble lord, master of the land and great hero is scratched on the hand while accepting obeisance, and begins to sicken and die of an exotic poison. Emphasise that for all our power and preparation we are all mortal, and a crafty opponent can affect us just as much as we can affect him, power and life are both fleeting.

 

I have no problem with exotic counters that can be used to deadly effect against powerful opponents, assuming that there is some way to counteract it. IMO, having an unstoppable weapon that there is no counter to makes bad design.

 

Personally, I like the idea of exploring what happens when someone accumulates quite a bit of power where they rival demigods. I think that surpassing humanity is an interesting theme that could be explored better than "here are some level 20 foot soldiers, have fun hacking them to bits" in RPGs.

[Nonek]

Personally i'd make either the poison or the weirdwood bolt in the above example clues, and also for a smart player a chance to devise a counter or antidote. Like Silverthorn in the old Feist book of the same name. The first link in a chain leading to the antagonist, and a chance to become used to his modes of operation. Level twenty footmen is I agree a very silly thing, rather let us have one feared and extremely potent assassin, whose trap is an entire adventure in itself, who is waiting for you to hunt him down by following the clues he's laid.

 

Demigods i'm not so sure of, one would imagine the gathering of worshippers, establishment of a cult/church and the ascent to godhood as well as the shedding of flesh, is a convoluted and time consuming process. Though i'm sure Obsidian would be able to pull off some form of Faustian pact, leaching power from some slumbering and titanic Lovecraftian outer god, or perhaps even becoming an avatar for a deity like Saint Waidwen before his fall at Godhammer.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

When I wrote "someone accumulates quite a bit of power where they rival demigods", I was referencing the Epic level power curve in 3.5E, where demigods(and the stillborn fetuses of demigods) are generally encounters for such a party, not that the party would become demigods.

[Nonek]

I think it would be interesting to implement however in a game, to play someone like Trias the Betrayer, struck down from heaven and once more mortal or something similar. Saint Waidwen and the other gods of Eternity seem very interesting, and perhaps a powerful and charismatic character, one judged as a hero by all and sundry, could be chosen as a gods mouthpiece.

 

Edit: Raises interesting ideas, of the deity recalling the world it once lived in (if it did,) the changes that have occured, and how it sees things now. How would one use its power and when would one be allowed to, as the god is surely the master in that situation. Would a lot of freedom be taken away from the player, or would the god no longer care so long as its influence and church did not wane? Would the presence of the god in the avatars body be almost another npc in the game?

 

Many as One springs to mind unsurprisingly.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Nonek

[GhoulishVisage]

Let the player become a lich.

 

 

 

Bam, instant awesome epic level campaign.
Even better if there's a cool, lengthy quest about transforming into a lich.

[Wolfenbarg]

Planescape: Torment and Mask of the Betrayer have some good examples of how to handle such content. The former has you exploring epic level worlds more than carving your way through them and the latter balances epic level combat with epic level questing/exploration. I am a little curious how they're going to handle it all, since Torment did it all within the confines of a single game, while Mask was an expansion. They did say that there is going to be an expansion, which is a little weird. I kind of preferred Torment since I don't think Mask of the Betrayer reached its full potential simply because it wasn't a full game.

[TrashMan]

Where does one find all the info on P:E Pantheon?

[Nonek]

As far as I know they've only mentioned Saint Waidwen, the god of fire whose bomb killed him and the old Aedyrean fallen "Queen of the Gods." Can't remember any others.

[Naurgalen]

I feel the main complain about epic levels is because we haven't had really well thought high level games at all. That is because they weren't fleshed out and the game still worked like lower levels but with more + numbers in your stats. Most games concentrated in the main history and totally forgot the implications that a god-like character has with a game world: that lead to poorly scaled encounters, no acknowledge of ones feats/actions, and a very limited view of what should be being a demi god.

 

Hopefully, that can change and reactivity and new options appear when you reach certain places of power in the story: For example: 1-6 commoner, 6-12 knight,  12 -18 lord, 18 - 25 demigod. That means that thought those levels the game "changes", the world "opens" to new challenges and "closes" the ones that aren't anymore: at 6 you have the keep and you became a pro adventurer, stop doing "fetch tasks" and "work to live the day"....  at 14 your political influence is far larger and is a part of the plot, you have enemy-allied lords, kings and maybe even countrys to protect/counter... you don't fight anymore for improving "your party" but "your domains", at 22 you are venerated as a lesser god and that brings a lot of more unexplored ideas: more power full gods that don't like you, gods destroyers, a nemesis, corruption, otherwordly beings, zergs, place, one older enemy lord that plots to kill you and drain your powers etc... being just a newborn god, you need ways to "stabilize" your new powers / influences.... learn about followers, domains, new threats and places. Maybe forge a plane, imbue your party with godlike powers, try to ascend them to godhood (more enemy's incoming xD), plot to destroy or protect a race, souls, magic, or whatever law of that universe... there are so many opportunity's. And remember: you may be a god, but when you fight in other gods realm, you follow his rules. (or in other words: encounters must take into consideration the place)