Russia passes more homophobia laws

[Hurlshort]

 

I would be careful with how certain news outlets report anything that has to do with education.  My wife has taught PE for the last decade and sits on the board of the California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Dance.  It is pretty much a non-issue for most schools, as they already accommodate students dealing with gender identity issues.  It is legally compelling any schools that still allow an atmosphere of gender discrimination to fall in line.

Fine, since you're such an expert, are you denying that the new law allows any boy who claims he feels like a girl to use the girl's locker room?

 

 

Most of my knowledge comes from the education side, since that is my background.  I am no expert on the medical side.  But to answer your question directly: no, it allows a transgender student to use the locker room of the gender they identify with.  It reads as follows:

 

A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

 

 

Now that sounds rather vague, and it is easy to understand why some people might think that means boys will be jumping in the showers with girls on a regular basis.  But there are a couple of reasons that will not happen.

 

1.  Becoming a legitimate transgender student is a difficult process.  This isn't Bosom Buddies, these kids go through years of counselling and, as I said, my wife who has been teaching for a decade has only had 3 students who actually meet this definition.

 

2.  It doesn't say anywhere that the student needs to share showers or changing rooms with others.  There are simply a ton of ways to accommodate everyone in these situations.  As I already mentioned, my wife opens up a third locker room.  I fail to see how it is a better solution to stick a transgender boy who identifies as a girl in a locker room full of teenage boys.  That seems like the worst idea ever.

[Bos_hybrid]

I wonder how many teenage boys are going to try and claim unsuccessfully they are transgender to get in girls locker rooms. I know I might of tried it at that age. Until the mention of drugs and surgery popped up.

 

"I wasn't perving honest!" "Was just exploring my transgender side".

 

Being serious now, there isn't one groups opinion we haven't really heard, that is of the girls he'll be sharing toilets with. Might not be such a problem now, but as he gets older it will be. I know it's not fair but many girls will be uncomfortable with that. Is it fair to make a whole bunch of girls uncomfortable for the one boy who feels he is a girl?

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

I would be careful with how certain news outlets report anything that has to do with education.  My wife has taught PE for the last decade and sits on the board of the California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Dance.  It is pretty much a non-issue for most schools, as they already accommodate students dealing with gender identity issues.  It is legally compelling any schools that still allow an atmosphere of gender discrimination to fall in line.

Fine, since you're such an expert, are you denying that the new law allows any boy who claims he feels like a girl to use the girl's locker room?

 

 

Most of my knowledge comes from the education side, since that is my background.  I am no expert on the medical side.  But to answer your question directly: no, it allows a transgender student to use the locker room of the gender they identify with.  It reads as follows:

 

A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

 

Now that sounds rather vague, and it is easy to understand why some people might think that means boys will be jumping in the showers with girls on a regular basis.  But there are a couple of reasons that will not happen.

 

1.  Becoming a legitimate transgender student is a difficult process.  This isn't Bosom Buddies, these kids go through years of counselling and, as I said, my wife who has been teaching for a decade has only had 3 students who actually meet this definition.

 

The law doesn't say anything about "legitimate transgender" whatever that means, it says "consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records", so whatever you say your identity is, that's what it is, there's no requirement to have a finding from an external arbiter.

 

2.  It doesn't say anywhere that the student needs to share showers or changing rooms with others.  There are simply a ton of ways to accommodate everyone in these situations.  As I already mentioned, my wife opens up a third locker room.  I fail to see how it is a better solution to stick a transgender boy who identifies as a girl in a locker room full of teenage boys.  That seems like the worst idea ever.

Yes it does, it allows them to use the same facilities, it says nothing about finding other accommodations or leave any discretion to the school, they now have the absolute right under the law to use either gender's facilities.

[Hurlshort]

Exactly, they have the right to use the facilities.  That does not mean they have the right to use the facilities as they are occupied.  There is a big difference.  As I said, many schools open up a third location, such as a visiting team girls locker room.  Or they can simply wait until the girls are finished getting dressed and have left the facility before the transgender individual uses them.

 

Teachers make accommodations for individuals every day.  There is no good reason not to do so for transgender students.   

 

Edit:  Under the accommodations I am listing, the girls are not impacted at all.  And this is what many schools are already doing.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Hurlshot

[obyknven]

Oby, you're funny but also quite delusional. 

....

 

You don't understand Russian culture. In Russian culture only passive gays considered as bad. Meanwhile active gays considered as normal. It's related with prison caste system.

http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Petukh

 

As result in Russia active agressive gays (aka Homophobes in Western Media) assault passive gays. For Heterosexual Russian's theme of gay rigths absolutely not interested.

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Walsie is correct Drowsy, its for the best that you accept this. You'll be a much less angry person when you realize that these "damn movements for equality" are not only the right thing to do but are also inexorable

Please insert a drill bit into your eye.

 

Anyway, I doubt this will have any major consequences for things in Russia. Gay athletes will go untouched up to a point if they go looking for it (Russia's not served by that additional embarassment) and all the groups wanting to beat up gay visitors will go quiet lest they get screwed to a wall. Heh, like a Potemkin village

 

I wonder if people will get on the case of nations with equally or worse treatment of gays being allowed to participate at all.

 

 

Of course no one is going to touch gay athletes. Unless they leave their lodgings and purposefully go down to the city and start waving flags about in a deliberate act of provocation. And even then nothing might happen. 

 

That depends on whose clients they are. I don't hear the calls to boycott the World Cup in Qatar where male homosexuality is a punishable by imprisonment?

 

But I understand why they're making so much noise. The various LGBT political groups depend on foreign funding to do their work in Russia, the new law is effectively shutting them down. No more sweet sweet euros from Denmark, Norway etc. to fund their very much "above the Russian average lifestyle."

In the recent gay parade in Budva, Montenegro there was a grand total of 30 participants. Half of those were politicians looking for exposure and the other half were paid around 600 euros to show up. So much for the great "struggle for equality", bleh.

[Gorgon]

I realise that transgender people have the same rights as anyone else. Personally though I think surgery is an extreme step. If I were 'trapped' in this body or the other it seems far more doable to simply adjust to living as a man or a woman whatever the case may be than to undergo surgery and hormone treatments which is still  dangerous and may wind up quite a bit off the mark one was aiming for. 

 

It seems to me that they are not only people who feel trapped in the wrong gender, but also people who place an extreme emphasis on identification with a particular gender. The grass is always greener on the other side, that kind of thing. This is something that we can adress as a society, making sure that people can live comfortably in their own skin without having to deal with a lot of gender based bias.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I would be careful with how certain news outlets report anything that has to do with education.  My wife has taught PE for the last decade and sits on the board of the California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Dance.  It is pretty much a non-issue for most schools, as they already accommodate students dealing with gender identity issues.  It is legally compelling any schools that still allow an atmosphere of gender discrimination to fall in line.

Fine, since you're such an expert, are you denying that the new law allows any boy who claims he feels like a girl to use the girl's locker room?

 

 

I wonder whose clever idea was to turn this into an issue in school for christ's sake. Why don't they just let the person him/her self sort his own issues post-schooling? With free counseling, surgery, drugs, whatever just not in school among other kids. 

[Leferd]

This is how Russians celebrate winning the gold medal in the 4x400m relay.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/russian-gold-medalists-kiss-medal-stand-world-championships-132337366.html

[Hurlshort]

 

 

I would be careful with how certain news outlets report anything that has to do with education.  My wife has taught PE for the last decade and sits on the board of the California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Dance.  It is pretty much a non-issue for most schools, as they already accommodate students dealing with gender identity issues.  It is legally compelling any schools that still allow an atmosphere of gender discrimination to fall in line.

Fine, since you're such an expert, are you denying that the new law allows any boy who claims he feels like a girl to use the girl's locker room?

 

 

I wonder whose clever idea was to turn this into an issue in school for christ's sake. Why don't they just let the person him/her self sort his own issues post-schooling? With free counseling, surgery, drugs, whatever just not in school among other kids. 

 

 

As I mentioned, the attempted suicide rate among transgender individuals was terribly high before they started addressing this at a younger age.  Post-schooling is simply too late.  Also I'm not sure why we need to shelter other kids from people that are different, that sounds like a bad way to develop a tolerant society.   

[pmp10]

I realise that transgender people have the same rights as anyone else. Personally though I think surgery is an extreme step. If I were 'trapped' in this body or the other it seems far more doable to simply adjust to living as a man or a woman whatever the case may be than to undergo surgery and hormone treatments which is still  dangerous and may wind up quite a bit off the mark one was aiming for. 

 

It seems to me that they are not only people who feel trapped in the wrong gender, but also people who place an extreme emphasis on identification with a particular gender. The grass is always greener on the other side, that kind of thing. This is something that we can adress as a society, making sure that people can live comfortably in their own skin without having to deal with a lot of gender based bias.

It's not that simple.

It's true that some people are surprising socially malleable and could adapt to any gender role but majority has their egos strongly tied to the way they are perceived. Tolerance won't change anything here. It's also true that people with gender dysmorphia tend to be depressed and suicidal albeit that may be chicken and egg problem.  But I do agree that in modern world gender reassignment is abused by people looking for perceived social advantages or fulfilling sexual fetishes.

[Drowsy Emperor]

This is how Russians celebrate winning the gold medal in the 4x400m relay.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/russian-gold-medalists-kiss-medal-stand-world-championships-132337366.html

 

This is such a lie, and lie, and more lie. It is a russian tradition to kiss each other as a way to express congratulation or greeting. Some might remember images of Brezhnev kissing Carter, members of Politbureau exchanging kisses etc. On one of the pictures it is clear that runner wears a ring on her right hand. Russians wear wedding rings on the right hand instead of the left. I see this article is nothing but gay propaganda

 

 

I read this comment and I can vouch for the first three sentences. I don't know of the rest (I haven't looked at her hand).

Edited August 18, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

I can agree from direct experience via a friendly acquaintance that the perceived desire to change gender can arise from a false notion of the 'problem' to be solved. In this case the individual had been raped and was trying (IMO) to make it less distressing by leaving their entire sexual history behind.

 

But like Gorgon I don't see an atmosphere of extreme orthodoxy as helpful. Surely if anything it merely contributes to the fetishising of trans/gender roles?

[Hurlshort]

The idea that a pre-teen who is dealing with puberty would claim to be a different gender for "social advantages or fulfilling sexual fetishes" seems pretty far-fetched.  

 

I've already mentioned that there are a lot of steps taken to ensure this isn't just a stage a child is going through. Unless we are now talking about adults who decide to change genders.  In that case I'd simply say it doesn't affect me in any way so I don't see any reason to have an issue with it.

 

All of these identity issues, whether it is gender or sexuality, are pretty simple for me.  It requires no effort on my part to be a male, or to be attracted to women.  These things are effortless.  So when I hear that someone is struggling with their identity, I know that I have no way of understanding what they are going through.  So the best thing I can do for them is to be tolerant and not judge.      

[obyknven]

I read this comment and I can vouch for the first three sentences. I don't know of the rest (I haven't looked at her hand).

It's true, Westernm media just don't understand what they talking about.

 

From blog of one American expat in Russia.

 

“I’m not against homosexuals, but… they shouldn’t show themselves on the street or in public places where children might see them.” Sexuality should stay in the bedroom. Arguing that not seeing gay people throughout the last forty years didn’t prevent people from being homosexual now doesn’t make an impact. 

 

“Men sitting together on the couch side of the table in a cafe, or drinking juice from straws, or wearing purple paisley shirts, is totally normal. So propagandizing homosexuality is illegal, but the markers of gay culture are quite different, apparently.

 

...Are you sure that those are markers of gay dude culture in Russia, or is that just a different expression of masculinity? Thanks for the post! <3

.

No, I definitely think it’s a different expression of masculinity. I think that if guys were drinking juice out of straws in America, there would be some assumptions of the kind that would get them beat up in Russia. But clearly people here aren’t thinking those things about them.

[pmp10]

The idea that a pre-teen who is dealing with puberty would claim to be a different gender for "social advantages or fulfilling sexual fetishes" seems pretty far-fetched.  

I wasn't implying that this is always the case but I can't see why teens would be a special case if adults are willing.

In fact confusion of puberty would seem like the perfect time to suggest gender reassignment due to better post-transition results. 

 

And in any event there is quite a lot of hypocrisy regarding various body perception disorders in modern society.

People desiring amputations are seen as psychologically or neurologically ill and will never be told that they were born into the wrong body.

[Leferd]

 

 

This is how Russians celebrate winning the gold medal in the 4x400m relay.http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/russian-gold-medalists-kiss-medal-stand-world-championships-132337366.html

 

 

This is such a lie, and lie, and more lie. It is a russian tradition to kiss each other as a way to express congratulation or greeting. Some might remember images of Brezhnev kissing Carter, members of Politbureau exchanging kisses etc. On one of the pictures it is clear that runner wears a ring on her right hand. Russians wear wedding rings on the right hand instead of the left. I see this article is nothing but gay propaganda

 

 

I read this comment and I can vouch for the first three sentences. I don't know of the rest (I haven't looked at her hand).

I'm not sure who you are quoting, I'm assuming someone posted and deleted their comments? How is it a lie? Obviously these athletes are showing some public display of solidarity. Their ummm...politics are only a matter of interpretation.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Exactly, they have the right to use the facilities.  That does not mean they have the right to use the facilities as they are occupied.  There is a big difference.  As I said, many schools open up a third location, such as a visiting team girls locker room.  Or they can simply wait until the girls are finished getting dressed and have left the facility before the transgender individual uses them.

 

Teachers make accommodations for individuals every day.  There is no good reason not to do so for transgender students.   

 

Edit:  Under the accommodations I am listing, the girls are not impacted at all.  And this is what many schools are already doing.

I think you're wrong in the way you're interpreting the law. What you're describing was possible before the law, now if you try that they can claim discrimination, since they're being segregated from the gender they claim to be. Also if the law means the facility has to be empty, then it really wouldn't matter which facility they were using, so why have the law in the first place?

 

I wonder whose clever idea was to turn this into an issue in school for christ's sake. Why don't they just let the person him/her self sort his own issues post-schooling? With free counseling, surgery, drugs, whatever just not in school among other kids.

The do-gooder Western liberal, who will not rest until the world as we know it is wiped out. Edited August 18, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

This is how Russians celebrate winning the gold medal in the 4x400m relay.http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/russian-gold-medalists-kiss-medal-stand-world-championships-132337366.html

 

This is such a lie, and lie, and more lie. It is a russian tradition to kiss each other as a way to express congratulation or greeting. Some might remember images of Brezhnev kissing Carter, members of Politbureau exchanging kisses etc. On one of the pictures it is clear that runner wears a ring on her right hand. Russians wear wedding rings on the right hand instead of the left. I see this article is nothing but gay propaganda

 

I read this comment and I can vouch for the first three sentences. I don't know of the rest (I haven't looked at her hand).

I'm not sure who you are quoting, I'm assuming someone posted and deleted their comments? How is it a lie? Obviously these athletes are showing some public display of solidarity. Their ummm...politics are only a matter of interpretation.

 

 

The point is in the interpretation. Western media is interpreting it as a sign of protest against Putins new law. 

 

Others are pointing out that this is a traditional Russian gesture (a peck on the lips) of greeting and congratulations. One reader also pointed out that one of them is married, which renders it very likely that this was indeed a congratulatory gesture and that there was no pro-LGBT politics behind it. 

 

If that is true, the entire anti-Putin part of the "news" is just a fabrication.

[obyknven]

 

I'm not sure who you are quoting, I'm assuming someone posted and deleted their comments? How is it a lie? Obviously these athletes are showing some public display of solidarity. Their ummm...politics are only a matter of interpretation.

 

Stalin kiss to protest anti-gay laws. Obviously Stalin are showing some public display of solidarity. Their ummm...politics are only a matter of interpretation.

 

As usual Americans know nothing about different cultures.

[Hurlshort]

WoD I am not giving you my interpretation, I am telling you how schools are implementing it. You are correct that it was already possible before the law, that is why I keep saying most schools have already implemented it. What it does is force any teachers or administrators who were not willing to accomodate transgender students into doing so.

[Hurlshort]

Being married doesnt really exclude you from making gestures that support gay rights. But in this case the best bet would be to simply ask the athletes about their intentions. It does sound a bit overblown by the western media

[Leferd]

Being married doesnt really exclude you from making gestures that support gay rights. But in this case the best bet would be to simply ask the athletes about their intentions. It does sound a bit overblown by the western media

They've kept silent. Gay propaganda laws and all. I expect there will be some sort of PR "statement" made eventually, but I would find it disingenuous that they are not aware of the controversy surrounding the laws and the perception that their actions may have on the debate.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

The do-gooder Western liberal, who will not rest until the world as we know it is wiped out.

 

 

I blame lobbying. With enough money and resources you can convince the public of anything.

 

A Gallup survey (I believe on a 20000 strong sample) found that Americans believe that over 30% of their countrymen are gay (actual numbers go from 1% to 3.6%). Its beyond incredible. Strong media presence managed to convince people of something that can be refuted by simple observation made by a person of less than average intelligence. 

 

A public so overwhelmingly easy to convince of anything, will, eventually, support anything.

[alanschu]

 

 

Being married doesnt really exclude you from making gestures that support gay rights.

 

Being married needn't discount you from being gay, even. (and yes, I'm talking about a heterosexual marriage)