About hate-mail and other online abuse.

[Orogun01]

 

Context may be relevant here.

Winning an award.

 

Was it an AVN award?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Context may be relevant here.

That was how he proposed.

 

Was it an AVN award?

Iron Bull beat him.

 

Anyways, Fish does come off as an ****. I find his little hissyfit a bit ironic, because he bullied people over the internet(. Frankly, I don't see a blunt dev sick of taking ****, but rather a spineless loser who feels fine dishing it out but cries like a bitch when some hits him back.

Edited August 5, 2013 by KaineParker

[moridin84]

There is a difference between him personally insulting a few people in a few situations, to him constantly criticized by many people over the internet. For everything he ever does.  

Edited August 6, 2013 by moridin84

[C2B]

There is a difference between him personally insulting a few people in a few situations, to him constantly criticized by many people over the internet. For everything he ever does.  

 

Yeah, but that doesn't absolve him automatically.

 

There's also plenty of developers that get critizized over the internet and don't also insult other developers. Yet, Fish for some reason, who is part of the problem, gets to be the victim. That is bull**** to everyone of them as well.

Edited August 6, 2013 by C2B

[C2B]

And this isn't even the first time this happens. Indie Game: The Movie depicts him as having had to fight against an *evil* ex co-worker...

 

Without consulting that co-worker about his side of the story.

 

Even more. AT FIRST THEY FLAT OUT LIED ABOUT IT.

 

From the FEZ topic at SA

 

Article about the whole thing:

 

http://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/6/15/3083080/indie-game-the-movie-revised-credits-phil-fish-fez

Edited August 6, 2013 by C2B

[moridin84]

 

There is a difference between him personally insulting a few people in a few situations, to him constantly criticized by many people over the internet. For everything he ever does.  

 

Yeah, but that doesn't absolve him automatically.

 

There's also plenty of developers that get critizized over the internet and don't also insult other developers. Yet, Fish for some reason, who is part of the problem, gets to be the victim. That is bull**** to everyone of them as well.

 

 

Absolve him? Why is everything black and white here?

 

He's an ass. So? That doesn't mean he has to suffer with the internet equivalent of people ringing up his phone, telling him he sucks and then hanging up. 

 

Why are we arguing about this anyway? Wasn't he just put forward as an example? 

[C2B]

 

 

There is a difference between him personally insulting a few people in a few situations, to him constantly criticized by many people over the internet. For everything he ever does.  

 

Yeah, but that doesn't absolve him automatically.

 

There's also plenty of developers that get critizized over the internet and don't also insult other developers. Yet, Fish for some reason, who is part of the problem, gets to be the victim. That is bull**** to everyone of them as well.

 

 

Absolve him? Why is everything black and white here?

 

He's an ass. So? That doesn't mean he has to suffer with the internet equivalent of people ringing up his phone, telling him he sucks and then hanging up. 

 

Why are we arguing about this anyway? Wasn't he just put forward as an example? 

 

 

Then be a nicer guy. That's all he has to do. If he stops and gets attacked fine. But if he does it himself too, he's part of the problem and he is also to be called out on it. (Hell, I would love it if he comes back matured into the gaming scene after a while)

 

And no. The whole debate sprung from media outlets that went to defend exactly Fish. And here again, there are tons of other devs that also have to handle vitrol and don't in fact insult people. Yet they get overlooked a lot of times because they aren't as *special*. That's the problem I had with that reaction.

 

I know devs that should have been supported. And exactly for them this isn't justice either. What about his co-workers nobody seems to talk about? There's still tons of people that believe FEZ was Fish's own creation.

 

You know what the difference is from Fish and these other developers that suffer? Fish has the power to end a lot of the vitrol by stop being an ****. Other developers don't have that luxury because they may get personally attacked for reasons as simple as people not liking their game. And you know what? Most people like FEZ. (I myself do as well)

 

Hell this is from one of the articles that started the debat (Already posted)

 

 

You might hate him, but he made Fez – and as such, he’s probably better than you.

 

 

 

That's my problem. Just THAT.

 

 

So two things

 

 

Calling people that act terribly on the internet out and look for solutions

 

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Making Fish its posterboy victim

 

NO!

Edited August 6, 2013 by C2B

[Chrononaut]

Making a platformer game for Xbox makes him better? I think any designer worth their salt should make a game which has more than jumping and running.

 

I think a lot of indie games in the market currently are nothing but laziness disguised as being "artsy", "creative" or "unique", when all they really want is a to get mentioned by a few youtube "celebrities" and get some quick cash.

 

I think indie devs like the guy behind Underrail, or NEO Scavenger, or most importantly Toady the dev of Dwarf Fortress, those are the unsung heroes slaving away day and night making really complex games. They aren't the usual pretentious loudmouths like Fish making simplistic and childish games.

[C2B]

Edit: Forget this post.

Edited August 6, 2013 by C2B

[Malcador]

There is a difference between him personally insulting a few people in a few situations, to him constantly criticized by many people over the internet. For everything he ever does.

One leads to another, if you think about it. Publicly act like a **** and you'll start getting that in addition to the usual flak a public figure has to deal with.

 

I'm just surprised this isn't some stunt. Or help us when he brings his emo self back to gaming

Edited August 6, 2013 by Malcador

[C2B]

That's much more noteworthy

 

 

It's an excellent example of when the internet goes off the rails. This should never ever happen and is utterly terrible.

 

Stuff like this is also why I have problems with fanatics in any given situation. The only thing they do is dillute a valid critisism and make discussions impossible.

Edited August 16, 2013 by C2B

[Sarex]

That's much more noteworthy

 

 

It's an excellent example of when the internet goes off the rails. This should never ever happen and is utterly terrible.

 

Stuff like this is also why I have problems with fanatics in any given situation. The only thing they do is dillute a valid critisism and make discussions impossible.

 

Did she really quit in the end? Wow. The backlash on DA2 really got out of hand.

[alanschu]

Hepler has moved on, yes, although I don't know how much the fan outrage affected her decision as opposed to just the usual changes in one's personal life.

[Chrononaut]

That's much more noteworthy

 

 

It's an excellent example of when the internet goes off the rails. This should never ever happen and is utterly terrible.

 

Stuff like this is also why I have problems with fanatics in any given situation. The only thing they do is dillute a valid critisism and make discussions impossible.

Hepler made no secret of the fact that she hated gameplay, and yet she continued to continue to work in the games industry. She is/was also a vocal proponent of the idea that video games shouldn't cater to niches of audiences, but instead be made as big an audience as possible.

 

Honestly, Bioware are responsible for so much decline in the video games industry that I cannot feel any sympathy for any of them.

[Chrononaut]

"Games cost much too much money to focus on a niche market," she said. "To survive, they need to be such a broadly popular part of entertainment culture that you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't play games. Women represent over 50 percent of the population, tend to be in charge of household finances, and are the majority purchasers of games (when factoring in games bought by women as gifts for husbands, children, friends, etc.). To indulge a community that is actively trying to alienate this powerful market segment (not to mention gay men, casual gamers of all types and anyone new to the hobby), is suicidal." - Jennifer Hepler

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

 

I think you should reconcile yourself to the fact that if every developer thought the way she does (and the way Bioware does) then games like Project Eternity or Wasteland 2 would not exist. Her views are are basically that traditional CRPG's (or any traditional niche games) should not exist, games should made for everybody.

 

Seriously, good riddance. She was a horrible, horrible writer to boot, possibly the worst in the industry.

Edited August 16, 2013 by LadyCrimson
quoted link removed

[IndiraLightfoot]

That's much more noteworthy

 

 

It's an excellent example of when the internet goes off the rails. This should never ever happen and is utterly terrible.

 

Stuff like this is also why I have problems with fanatics in any given situation. The only thing they do is dillute a valid critisism and make discussions impossible.

 

^This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way, and when it's been done on shady grounds, by individuals failing to deal with frustrations over one or two computer games with some fiction involving selectable gender roles, it's just so bizarre that I wish I could undo all such destructive actions in one sweep and rid the world of those problems forever.

Edited August 16, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Chrononaut]

 

That's much more noteworthy

 

 

It's an excellent example of when the internet goes off the rails. This should never ever happen and is utterly terrible.

 

Stuff like this is also why I have problems with fanatics in any given situation. The only thing they do is dillute a valid critisism and make discussions impossible.

 

^This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way, and when it's been done on shady grounds, by individuals failing to deal with frustrations over one or two computer games with some fiction involving selectable gender roles, it's just so bizarre that I wish I could undo all such destructive actions in one sweep and rid the world of those problems forever.

 

Are you new to the internet? Outrageous insults and trolling just happen, getting all righteous and indignant about it won't change anything, I might suggest people like Hepler "grow thicker skin", but I know people like her are just playing victim to distract from real criticisms.

 

 

This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way,

Lol, now this is cute.

 

Also, the whole gay thing is just how Bioware likes to deflect criticism of their terrible games. "You don't like ME3 or DA2, you are a nasty homophobic troll!"

[C2B]

 

"Games cost much too much money to focus on a niche market," she said. "To survive, they need to be such a broadly popular part of entertainment culture that you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't play games. Women represent over 50 percent of the population, tend to be in charge of household finances, and are the majority purchasers of games (when factoring in games bought by women as gifts for husbands, children, friends, etc.). To indulge a community that is actively trying to alienate this powerful market segment (not to mention gay men, casual gamers of all types and anyone new to the hobby), is suicidal." - Jennifer Hepler

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

 

I think you should reconcile yourself to the fact that if every developer thought the way she does (and the way Bioware does) then games like Project Eternity or Wasteland 2 would not exist. Her views are are basically that traditional CRPG's (or any traditional niche games) should not exist, games should made for everybody.

 

 

That's the critisism. That's ok. (And one I agree with)

 

It does not justify hate-mail and death threats against her family. These actually dilute from the initial cristism as well.

Edited August 16, 2013 by LadyCrimson
quoted link removed

[IndiraLightfoot]

Are you new to the internet?

 

Outrageous insults and trolling just happen, getting all righteous and indignant about it won't change anything, I might suggest people like Hepler "grow thicker skin".

 

 

This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way,

Lol, now this is cute.

 

Also, the whole gay thing is just how Bioware likes to deflect criticism of their terrible games. "You don't like ME3 or DA2, you are a nasty homophobic troll!"

 

 

I've used the internet since it began.

 

Just because trolling and insults happen on the internet doesn't make it any more legit than hate speech in RL.

 

This is just not internet whatever, it is a specific forum, a forum with specific rules, like:

In general, our guidelines are based on the fundamentals of common sense, respect and tolerance. We ask that our users not post material that is abusive, defamatory, libelous, harassing, hateful, obscene, profane, vulgar, or illicit. When posting to a file, please ensure that it is not a direct download. When posting a link, please be aware that external sites might change their content without warning, so avoid linking to sites of unknown or questionable reputation AS YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE.

 

Discrimination: Obsidian has a zero-tolerance policy with regard to racial, ethnic, gender, religious, disablement, and/or sexually discriminating remarks.

 

Harassment: We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ. Personal attacks that are intended to cause unwanted attention, embarrassment, or harm will not be tolerated. In addition, Obsidian does not tolerate disrespectful and/or slanderous posts about its competitors, developers and publishers. Such posts will be subject to editing or deleting, with its posters censured or banned.

 

[Malcador]

Well I guess they see their victory, heh. Why exactly do developers allow people such access to them, again ? Not seeing any reward to trying be chummy with the people you're trying to take cash from, certainly none worth the risk of abuse and death threats.

 

^This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way, and when it's been done on shady grounds, by individuals failing to deal with frustrations over one or two computer games with some fiction involving selectable gender roles, it's just so bizarre that I wish I could undo all such destructive actions in one sweep and rid the world of those problems forever.

Love the overreaction. The 'horror', really now.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Love the overreaction. The 'horror', really now.

 

 

Malc, but how come I was so calm when writing it?

[Malcador]

Probably because it's just text on a screen, nothing to get emotional over.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Precisely, just stating the obvious. Any standing up for basic decency and laws and rules should be ho-hum second nature. Funny how common it is that level-headed maturity is followed by belittling remarks on the internet. Perhaps it is a matter of that screen again, and feeling big behind it?

[Chrononaut]

 

Are you new to the internet?

 

Outrageous insults and trolling just happen, getting all righteous and indignant about it won't change anything, I might suggest people like Hepler "grow thicker skin".

 

 

This! It should say it all for any civilized human being. Each continued attempt at justifying the horrors and the horrific effects of those threats is despicable. It's never, ever okay to treat any kind of person that way,

Lol, now this is cute.

 

Also, the whole gay thing is just how Bioware likes to deflect criticism of their terrible games. "You don't like ME3 or DA2, you are a nasty homophobic troll!"

 

 

Stuff

 

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the internet in general. People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

There are certainly cases as you describe. I've seen them on Kickstarter and in other places. What I try to be sensible about is the dogpiling in the first place. If someone, like Hepler, has made something you don't like, it's enough to tell them so, then the criticism can be devoid of bullying and threats and all that. Just tell the person that it sucks and why, and leave it at that.

 

P.S. I hate DA2 and ME3, just to get that out of the way.

Edited August 16, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot