Companion Wages?

[Nonek]

Obsidian are quite good at providing a logical reason for the protagonist attracting followers, but what of more traditional forms of cohesion, that of financial renumeration? It may be more appropriate for some followers than others, the more mercenary of personalities, but even the most personally involved and charitable fellows will need a little pocket money. These will presumably be potent, skilled individuals whose services are in the world of Eternity quite highly valued, so their aid should logically be recompensed.

 

Indeed if ones adventures become increasingly fraught with danger might the price of their assistance increase? Infiltrating the dreaded Onyx Citadel, infamous stronghold of the immortal Plague that Walks, should be judged as a little more risky than storming a back alley thumpers flophouse. Wouldn't a smart companion demand a few more pennies for this task? Indeed while recieving the quest ones followers could chip in to the conversation and demand better compensation, they are after all putting their lives on the line.

 

Could you fall into debt with your companions, or knowingly decieve them and withold their pittance, thus affecting influence. Or might you have such a golden tongue as to persuade great loyalty, for the most meagre of purses. What of companions who have no control over their purse-strings, might they draw on their leaders credit, maybe even dip their fingers into the parties assets when no one is looking. Could this add another layer of personality and role playing in to the party dynamic? 

 

What say you gentles all, yay, nay or piffle?

Edited June 9, 2013 by Nonek

[Melhelix]

I liked being able to haggle the starting contracts of companions in NWN's OC. Especially because at the very start of the game gold is so dear, so smart hiring decisions were a must (who to hire, can I haggle them down to a lower price in order to also afford potions, etc.) I actually would have preferred if that was carried out throughout the campaign with companions costing increasing amounts as their skills increased, with discounts if you had traveled together previously (maybe also price hikes if they kept getting killed and resurrected) instead of the "nope, we've all been paid by someone else to obey you, no worries" that ended up occurring.

 

So, yes, love your idea, especially with all the extra depth in it. Anything to make companions have a sense of identity and worth.

[Pshaw]

I like the idea behind differing methods of recruitment. I say it's good place to add a bit of variety for flavors sake. It makes me think of Sulik from fallout 2, you could either buy him as a slave, get him given to you as a slave, or free him and have him join you willingly.  Vic was much the same as you could either free him or buy him from slavers and there were 2 famers that would join and marry you (albeit a forced marriage at gunpoint orchestrated by an upset father) if you seduced them. I'd love to see a bit more variety for people joining your crew. There were also numerous characters who wouldn't join you if you were a child-killer.

Personally I don't much like the idea of having to pay out a weekly or monthly contract to your companions but I can't deny that it would fit in very well with the adventure's hall. If there is perma-death the costs could go up based on how many other adventures have died with you in the past since traveling with you is clearly a serious risk.

In the end I'm all for this. If you have a greedy mercenary type join you maybe they should get payed or get a percentage of the gold you find. If you have a brawler sort of follower join you for the glory of combat yet you sneak around and talk your way through things they should leave since the condition your recruited them under isn't being met. There is a lot of potential for adding flavor to your companions here and I'd love to see obsidian delve into it a bit.

[Giantevilhead]

 

I'll take your gold.

[Sensuki]

I think they were toying with the idea of having to pay Adventurer's Hall recruits or something.

 

Don't know if that will end up being the case.

 

I remember Chris saying something about incorporating companion backstories as part of the narrative.

[Jarmo]

I think I'd like retainers better in open sandbox type of a game.

 

Hiring fee is one thing and that's all reasonable and fine.

But if you want to go all realistic, then it's about getting a percentage cut. And I know I'd bee too stingy to agree.

 

Guess maybe a mercenary would agree to.. 50GP + 5 GP per week.

But if you start hauling in a dragons hoard.. well maybe he'd try to renegotiate?

 

Temple of Elemental Evil had mercenary companions who'd want stuff like half of all gold or all the scrolls, or something like that.

Understandable and all, but I never took them because that was just too much.

 

And if a large percentage of players skip an important companion because of the hiring cost,

that just doesn't work out well with having fewer companions with more story behind them.

[Archmage Silver]

I think I'd like retainers better in open sandbox type of a game.

 

Hiring fee is one thing and that's all reasonable and fine.

But if you want to go all realistic, then it's about getting a percentage cut. And I know I'd bee too stingy to agree.

 

Guess maybe a mercenary would agree to.. 50GP + 5 GP per week.

But if you start hauling in a dragons hoard.. well maybe he'd try to renegotiate?

 

Temple of Elemental Evil had mercenary companions who'd want stuff like half of all gold or all the scrolls, or something like that.

Understandable and all, but I never took them because that was just too much.

 

And if a large percentage of players skip an important companion because of the hiring cost,

that just doesn't work out well with having fewer companions with more story behind them.

Yeah, that was too much. I think the Circle of Eight fixpack offers some optional component to change that, although I haven't played with it for a while.

[Nonek]

Yes I found that system in TOEE a trifle invasive myself, mostly because there was no arguing with the mechanic. These are people, therefore they can be reasoned with or even manipulated. One also assumes that they'll have some personal stake in the protagonist affairs, thus mitigating the usual price for securing their allegiance.

 

Edit: Of course when personal matters rear their ugly heads how satisfying would it be to demand payment for your aid, or sitting back, giving them a superior smirk and proclaiming breezily. "I would not dream of charging such a close friend."

Edited June 9, 2013 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

For characters from the Adventurer's Hall definitely. For the unique NPCs, it depends on the character, but more than likely it would fit at least one.

[Lephys]

I really like the idea, and I'm very much for variety in the cost of service (for those companion's who have one). You know, "I'll join you, so long as you let me do such-and-such." Or "I'll join you so long as I get to take some shiny loot every now and again."

 

Basically, I just don't see everyone doing everything you say just because. People would definitely have conditions. Usually, at least (you gotta have all types, heh.)

[Karkarov]

Depends on the companion..... scratch that.... it depends on if they are a companion or a mercenary.

 

If I am going to storm the Onyx Citadel I don't expect Pauly the Pure Paladin of the Holy Mother to start rubbing his fingers together and begin talking about how light his coin purse is.  Likewise I don't expect Carry the Cat Burglar who is my childhood friend of 20 years whose life I have saved 7 times to do more than moan and complain a little.  Bob McMoneygrubbins the Dwarven Sellsword though... I think it would reasonable for him to want some remuneration for taking on such a tough job.

 

Of course if I were going to assault the bastion of death and plague that is the Onyx Citadel in what is likely to be a near suicide mission... I wouldn't want to take people motivated by money to begin with.  Money is only useful if you aren't dead after all.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Karkarov

[Ulquiorra]

I think it's good idea. Regardless if your companions are your friends or only mercs ... they need to eat sleep, drink and other thing to survive. Not mentioning they whoud like to party or make some fun from time to time .. so it all gives costs ...

[Failion]

To troll everyone they should implement whenever you recruit a companion they give you a contract with extremely small print. And after a while you notice your 100k+ gold you collected in the game turn into -1.6 million debt... so much for buying those end game items.

[Nonek]

Depends on the companion..... scratch that.... it depends on if they are a companion or a mercenary.

 

If I am going to storm the Onyx Citadel I don't expect Pauly the Pure Paladin of the Holy Mother to start rubbing his fingers together and begin talking about how light his coin purse is.  Likewise I don't expect Carry the Cat Burglar who is my childhood friend of 20 years whose life I have saved 7 times to do more than moan and complain a little.  Bob McMoneygrubbins the Dwarven Sellsword though... I think it would reasonable for him to want some remuneration for taking on such a tough job.

 

Of course if I were going to assault the bastion of death and plague that is the Onyx Citadel in what is likely to be a near suicide mission... I wouldn't want to take people motivated by money to begin with.  Money is only useful if you aren't dead after all.

 

For me it seems not unreasonable that Pauly might well require you to make a donation to mother church to secure his aid, presumably they pay for his food, lodgings, the upkeep of his arms and armour etcetera. Carry has to give up a lucrative mark she's been casing for the past week or so, and put her life on the line to help you, it's only reasonable that you should recompense her for her time and possibly if she's not coming back make sure her family are provided for. You might have saved her life seven times but she will have aided you a like amount, and neither of these put food on her table or make up for a lost job. Her time is valuable, a good friend would see that and pay her without ever being asked, at least in my eyes.

 

As for the aid of mercenaries, they are what I would want to take into a dangerous situation. Professional, disciplined and obviously highly skilled in their field, thus justifying their fee. It's friends and family that I would not want to be taking in to a life or death situation.

 

I think that companions all too often are overlooked as expendable assets, their worth only measured in how much they concur with your opinions. I'd prefer them to have worth with or without the protagonist, and to easily justify a fair days pay for a fair days work.

[JFSOCC]

Keep your grubby fingers of MY gold. I give you food and board, and you can keep the gear that you find. That's compensation enough.

[Karkarov]

I think that companions all too often are overlooked as expendable assets, their worth only measured in how much they concur with your opinions. I'd prefer them to have worth with or without the protagonist, and to easily justify a fair days pay for a fair days work.

 

No. 

 

First off by now after 20 years of friendship I have helped Carry the Cat Burglar more than enough times to make her plenty of money.  Who do you think bought her the magical short sword she is using?  Pauly the Pure tithes his own money, not other peoples, and as a holy knight probably plans to assault the Onyx Citadel with or without me.  He smites evil, he isn't a church tax collector.  Bob on the other hand will be great sure.... until we get into a situation that is near 100% assured death and he does the math and mentions how he isn't being paid to die leaving me Carry and Pauly high and dry. 

 

That photo posted a bit above here is hilariously ironic in this regard.

 

It isn't like these guys are paying for inn rooms when we stay in them, or they buy the healing potions they quaff.

[Jarmo]

Keep your grubby fingers of MY gold. I give you food and board, and you can keep the gear that you find. That's compensation enough.

 

And what if he finds that holy avenger sword before you do?

No, what he gets is some of the gear, the part I approve him having.

And even then, I might take it back later...

 

---

 

Hmmm.. maybe a slave market would be a better place to get companions than adventurers lodge?

Edited June 12, 2013 by Jarmo

[JFSOCC]

I tend to play a different class from the rest of my team so we don't have gear conflicts. It's terribly meta-game thinking, but there you have it.

[Nonek]

It does seem that most rpg companions are fairly much slaves to the protagonist I agree, they put their lives on the line and yet recieve nothing other than what the main character deems them worthy of, as if they do not deserve an equal share of the loot they have worked equally hard to gain. I dislike that, it does not lead to respecting the characters in their own right, they are less people and friends, more tools to be used and disposed of when no longer viable. For a developer like Obsidian that produces the finest characters in the genre, this serves to belittle them in my view.

 

One can of course see the need for a party leader, who directs and controls the individuals strategies and panoply, but too often it goes without saying that every aspect of the companions life is directed by the protagonist for no reason other than tradition. This doesn't make me respect my companions, they appear to be extensions of my will rather than allies in the struggle. For the record Obsidian is much better at avoiding this than any other developer I know, whether it's Kreia's hidden motivations and subtle manipulations or Boone's steady refusal to be anything other than what he is.

 

Even if these people are co-conspirators in the protagonists endeavours, they should still not be so meek as to turn over all control of their finances and belongings to the main character without suitable renumeration. Mercenaries of course fight and die for coin as a matter of course, but even they can pick and choose their cause and employer, though of course they cannot abandon that employer without their loyalty and future employability being seriously called into doubt. Personally if i'm leading a party of individuals into a hostile situation, I want their loyalty and their respect, treating them as worthless and undeserving of pay or avoiding any kind of responsibility to them, seems a little rum in my book. One assumes it would in theirs as well, there are as many (if not more) responsibilities as perks to being a leader of men.

 

Then again i'm always thrilled at the idea of more options and features, so that if one wants to play as a rather selfish individual that playstyle is available. Perhaps spies in your camp and traitors become de rigueur however, so that your lack of loyalty is mirrored by all those around you. Perhaps your companions are even lured away by your foes, with adequate compensation for their time and effort.

[eschaton]

While people make good points, it should be kept in mind that while you're adventuring, there's not much to spend your money on.  There's always the question in RPGs of where all the gold/loot is being stored.  But surely, when there are mercenaries in the field, there isn't a payday bimonthly when they get their wage. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is there's a few ways to show party member's cut of the loot which are better than what TOEE tried.

 

1.  A fee upon joining the party.  This money just vanishes, never to be seen again.  Don't worry about where your party member is hiding it.  

2.  Somewhere, there's a notional account of the wages of the party members being tracked.  But the money is due upon the end of the mission, or end of the contract.  Thus if you keep a party member for hire with you, you may never see the distribution of the loot, as it happens outside of the confines of the game.  If your party member leaves early, or if you dismiss them, however, they'll expect to be paid in full, and might be a little...testy...if you shortchange them.

3.  At various times, a party member "takes liberties" which draw down the notational account.  So for example, when you get to a tavern, he informs you he's going to get a whore, and you lose x gold. 

4.  There might be certain loot which NPC's claim in lieu or in addition to wages.  Again, you could refuse, but you'd damage your reputation with the party member if you did so.  

[Jarmo]

I'd actually be much more open to sharing the loot equally if the companions didn't expect me to

feed and cloth and arm them and keep them in potions and supplies from my 1/6th of the loot. 

 

If they upgrade their armor and weapons, keep a steady supply of potions and bullets and stuff.

Well.. that'd change the ballgame pretty much.

[Karkarov]

I'd actually be much more open to sharing the loot equally if the companions didn't expect me to

feed and cloth and arm them and keep them in potions and supplies from my 1/6th of the loot. 

 

If they upgrade their armor and weapons, keep a steady supply of potions and bullets and stuff.

Well.. that'd change the ballgame pretty much.

Great post, and this is part of my point.

 

In BG I paid for their inn rooms, I bought their arrows, I distributed and sometimes bought them gear.  It wasn't like they weren't getting "rewarded".  If Minsc doesn't like how he is getting treated he can just hand that full plate armor I bought him right back.

 

If you really do want to do a game driven on the idea of soliders / adventurers for hire than they need their own cut sure.  But they also need to be responsible for themselves.  They need to buy their own gear, have their own inventory, and pay their own way.  After all I am paying them a wage, they work for me.  My boss doesn't pay for my lunch, he says he paid me and I can buy it myself.

 

A system where an npc wants a wage AND wants me to front all their costs is just as ridiculous as one where a mercenary will take a one time 100 gold pay off and never ask for compensation again and let you totally control his inventory.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Karkarov

[Nonek]

Yes this is what i'd prefer, if they were able to pay for their own needs and not be reliant on the protagonist, it's a rather clumsy form of ego stroking that personally I find a little distasteful. I'd prefer them to be free companions rather than indentured dogsbodies. With their own lodgings, preferred arms and armour, the means to buy their own vittles and whatnot. Though potions obviously need to just go away and die, they were silly in AD&D, and they're silly now.

 

Obviously their pay would be substantial, because they're putting their lives on the line for somebody else's objectives, and they will one assumes be skilled, potent operatives. Of course we should have a final say over their weapons, armour and tactics so that it's not like the ridiculous system in say Dragon Age 2, fit only for the lowest common denominator, but that goes without saying. 

 

If they're partners in your endeavour, then that loot you pick up is partly theirs and you're not paying them, you're just in charge of distrinuting the proceeds of the latest venture. Which should always be fair. But as a professional mercenary or a hireling, which just sits better with my sensibilities than the term adventurer, they are employees whom you must pay a fair wage to and to whom one has a duty of care, if one wishes to later hire others at none astronomical prices.

 

Edit: It would be nice if at some point the exact relationship between the protagonist and companions was defined by Obsidian. Whether they are sellswords whom one is hiring, perhaps at a reduced rate through common goals. Or whether they are fellow party members, taking an equal share of the profits and risks like in AD&D, where the player acting out the party leader role is merely the administrator of the group and not the employer.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Nonek

[IndiraLightfoot]

Jarmo, Karkarov, Nonek: Together you sum up my stance on this nicely. Great posts!

[Jarmo]

 

Edit: It would be nice if at some point the exact relationship between the protagonist and companions was defined by Obsidian. 

 

I'd be willing to bet against bad odds that pretty much every plot companion will have their own reasons to come along and follow the protagonist.

Probably one or several will be pulled by the event witnessed near the start, and the mystery it represents. Others will have different reasons.

 

There might be some that can be classified mercenaries and simply come along for the cash, but I'm not betting on that.