NWN2 influences: what to take and what to leave

[PrimeJunta]

So I've been putzing around with NWN2 again.

 

Back around when they came out, I played through the OC about two or three times, and then the same for MotB. I never managed to finish Storm of Zehir, and never got past the start of Mysteries of Westgate. Revisiting them, I can see things I really liked about all of them, and things that I really didn't like. I'm not really trying to complete any of them; just playing in and with them.

 

The OC has aged the worst IMO. It's too deeply rooted in NWN, like Obsidian was trying really hard to make a BioWare game but their heart wasn't really in it. It has most of the weaknesses of the IE games and not so many of the strengths; the quests are mostly linear do-this do-that, kill-that-meanie, find-this-trinket, rescue-these-hostages kind of stuff and of course the main campain story driver is about as unimaginative as it gets. The best part is IMO Crossroad Keep. I like the introduction of strategy and resource management elements into a straight-off fantasy cRPG.

 

Storm of Zehir... whoo. I think this is the one I like best of the trio... in principle. The trade empire back story permits a lot of emergent gameplay and nicely lets you set your own objectives in the context of the bigger story. This is true-blue spreadsheet-RPG game in the IWD tradition: screw larping, just make the most efficient team of adventurer/merchants you can, and make the world your mollusc. I love discovering hidden stuff on the map and in fact one of the challenges I set for myself was to make the ultimate world-map party guide (and I think I did OK with that). But. It stumbles badly in the execution. The constant transitions between the world map and locations take way too much time. It's poorly balanced, as in soporifically easy, with a reasonably well-constructed (far from perfect) party. And at least for me, once I had my trade empire all nicely set up and grinding in obscene amounts of wealth, the main impetus for continuing the story was kind of lost for me. If I make, like, a couple of hundred grand by taking a few power naps, why would I even want to keep adventuring? 

 

And MotB... oh, MotB. I love the writing, and in my opinion no cRPG integrates game systems and ethical choices and consequences quite as well. If only there was a that rescaled it to levels 4-15 or so, like SoZ. Epic-level D&D is just so utterly silly. "Please, Safiya, dear, would you be so kind as to NOT lob meteor storms on me while I'm busy fighting these epically dangerous spirit beasts? Or at least slap an Energy Immunity (Fire) and Greater Stoneskin on first? [casts Heal on self in mid-combat]"

 

What would I like to see in P:E? From the OC, Crossroad Keep only a notch further. From SoZ, emergent gameplay objectives that are driven by a system of mechanics similar in style – but not necessarily at all in content – as the trade system. From MotB, the personal story, fantastically written companions, and off-the-beaten-track locations. If "all" P:E does is that, without any major innovations of its own, it will be one hell of a good game. 

[Fearabbit]

Good points, but you forgot about Mysteries of Westgate. What did you like and what didn't you like about that one?

 

I've only played the OC so far, because I can't find the expansions anywhere as standalones and I'm not really willing and able to pay 20 euros for NWN2 Complete on gog.com. Didn't like the OC too much, for pretty much the reasons you posted (and the gameplay, as in NWN1, is very confusing and wasn't a lot of fun for me).

[PrimeJunta]

I never managed to get past the start on that one, so I don't really have an opinion on it. I'll probably give it another try one of these days. 

 

Keep an eye out for "deal weekends" on GoG -- I bought mine from there a while back when they had one of those "five for the price of one" type deals going.

[Gumbercules]

I'm only familiar with the OC and MotB, but I pretty much agree with your points. One additional thing the OC has in its favor is the trial. The trial! I love those kinds of elaborate non-combat questlines. They're a great opportunity to showcase C&C and reactivity, and help an RPG be more than just a dungeon crawl. I hope Project Eternity has plenty of detailed non-combat gameplay.

 

The one big problem with the NWN2 trial was the railroading. If you lose the trial, you have to fight in a trial by combat. If you win...you still have to fight in a trial by combat. Lame.

[Sensuki]

I dunno if it's just me but the Trial reminded me of the Trial on Dantooine in SW:KotOR 1.

 

I'm okay with those kind of events as long as they're not YOU MUST DO THIS TO PROGRESS. Would have been cooler if there were ways to circumvent the Trial altogether.

[Darkpriest]

IMO NWN2 had a lot of potential... it was interesting story overall, nice plot twists etc... generally quests themselves were less interesting than the story although I admit i liked act 3... some parts felt rushed... like they had to cut on the story telling the further the game was going.

 

One thing did not go so well though with NWN2. I really hoped it will improve the quality of PWs comparing to NWN... but apparently it just wasn't the case.. which was sad.

[Micamo]

I dunno if it's just me but the Trial reminded me of the Trial on Dantooine in SW:KotOR 1.

 

I'm okay with those kind of events as long as they're not YOU MUST DO THIS TO PROGRESS. Would have been cooler if there were ways to circumvent the Trial altogether.

 

The trial sequence itself was my favorite part of NWN2's OC. It's the most well-developed and fleshed-out dialogue tree I've seen since Torment; The kind of sequence RPG developers told us became impossible with the rise of fully animated and voice acted cutscenes. Well, Obsidian proved you can do it. What's your excuse, ****?

 

Everything before and after the trial itself was a load of horse **** though.

 

Becoming a Squire of Neverwinter so you can be tried by High Justice. Gee, I wonder if this will be used as an excuse to railroad me into doing brain-dead stupid crap for these morons? (Spoiler alert: It is! Constantly!) You know, I have an alternate idea: How about I just kill any Luskanite who comes to try to capture me? Or how about I just go there for my "trial" and slaughter the entire chain of command? The way the storyline was going at that point I was convinced I'd have to go to Luskan and kill everything that moved there to get to Black Garius. I have to admit, I was genuinely shocked that I didn't (I sure as hell did have to retread everywhere ELSE I visited in NWN1), though how Black Garius actually dies was even dumber so that's hardly a consolation prize.

 

The Trial By Combat. This was obviously a way for the player to get out of being executed if they failed at winning the trial (which I admit is better than making it impossible to lose) but why the **** do I have to do this even if I win? And for that matter, why couldn't I just call for a trial by combat in the first place? Why wasn't I even *told* this was an option until Torio pulled it out of her nasty ****? Would the trial by combat have been available if I hadn't gone through that Squire crap? Could I have just skipped becoming a squire and, thus, skipped all the bull**** I'm railroaded into doing as a consequence of it?

 

It's bad enough I'm being railroaded without the game waving its **** in my face and laughing at me while it does it! Even after I was so won over by the trial sequence being so well done the only thing I could now think was "Well, that was just a gigantic waste of everyone's time."

 

Oh, and what comes after that is even worse. All of your party members come in one by one and cry "You don't stand a chance against Lorne! Let me fight him for you!" Bitch, I'm a pretty well optimized Wizard. I'm the most powerful character in this party by like, 12 orders of magnitude, even after all of my really awesome powers (Greater Teleport, Contact Other Plane, open-ended Illusions) are either absent or completely gimped. I could slaughter you all in two rounds if I wanted, stripped down naked, much less with all my magic items. Frankly I'm more insulted than anything that you feel so lowly of my abilities. I brought him down to negative hit points with one spell, turned invisible, and waited for his rage to wear off. I pretty much actively despised most of the party even before this point anyway and after this the only one I still kinda liked was Shandra Jerro. Which is good, because we totally got to adventure together for the rest of the game, and nothing bad happened to her soon after this for the most arbitrary and stupidly pointless reasons imaginable. (True Resurrection! True Resurrection! GOD DAMMIT ZHAJEVE YOU'RE 17TH LEVEL AND I'VE GOT 100,000 GP IN MY POCKET, ****ING CAST IT ALREADY!!!)

[Odd Hermit]

I liked the trial, hated the trial by combat part. Lorne was also basically the computer cheating epically, IIRC he had some effect where he literally could not die for a decent period of time + a damage buff or something that wasn't a normal class ability just something they slapped on to make it more difficult - you basically had to kite him for awhile or use defensive buffs and then just endure for awhile while he goes into his cheat mode. I like the AI to play within the rules so the player can adapt to situations based on knowledge of the game rules and not knowledge of specific boss abilities you need to avoid and such.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Odd Hermit

[cleric Nemir]

I would very much like them to pretend NWN2 oc never happened.

[Micamo]

I liked the trial, hated the trial by combat part. Lorne was also basically the computer cheating epically, IIRC he had some effect where he literally could not die for a decent period of time + a damage buff or something that wasn't a normal class ability just something they slapped on to make it more difficult - you basically had to kite him for awhile or use defensive buffs and then just endure for awhile while he goes into his cheat mode. I like the AI to play within the rules so the player can adapt to situations based on knowledge of the game rules and not knowledge of specific boss abilities you need to avoid and such.

 

Actually it's just the tabletop version of the Frenzied Beserker class properly implemented, not some Uber-special NPC ability the designers just made up. For some reason the one available to PCs in NWN2 is gimped and doesn't give you half the stuff it's supposed to.

 

So, let's talk companions. It's no secret I didn't really like NWN2's companions overall (and really that's an understatement) but I feel like letting out some steam so I'm going to give my thoughts on all of them (though for most there's not really that much to say), in order of most-liked companion to least-liked:

 

Shandra Jerro

 

I like Shandra for a couple of reasons. First, she's the only companion who actually seems to want to follow you around (half of the others actively hate you and only do it cause they're forced to do so somehow and the other half just apparently does it for ****s and giggles). Second, she's the only one with a definable personality outside of her Race/Class/Alignment triple. Third, she's really the only companion it feels like you actually have conversations with. Most of the time the dialogues with other companions are just an exposition train: You ask them questions down the list and they give you their answers, one at a time. Occasionally, you'll be able to give a meaningless, cookie-cutter response that serves no purpose but to dispense alignment and/or influence points.

 

She's not a great character but at least she's a passable, serviceable character. After she was senselessly murdered (don't worry, I'll get to that later) I kept that portrait of her in my inventory and felt really angry and sad whenever I looked at it. I'm sorry to say that makes her the best one in NWN2's OC by a huge margin.

 

Khelgar Ironfist

 

Oh look. A dwarf. Who likes drinking and getting into fights and who cares a lot about Clan Honor. Pass.

 

Actually, I'm rating Khelgar so high because, as much of a walking stereotype as he is, he actually has a character arc over the course of the campaign (assuming you do his side quests that is). Granted he just morphs from one stereotype into another, but with the exception of Shandra that's more than I can say for anyone else.

 

Amie and Bevil

 

At least they're inoffensive. They don't really get the time they need to pan out one way or the other, but I'm rating them high because underdeveloped character is better than putrid, horrible character. Maybe if they had more material they'd have been another two Shandras. Or maybe not. Call me a hopeless optimist, but I like to think they would have been better written than some of the clowns here.

 

Neeshka

 

She's a Tiefling Thief. Also she has this ridiculous high-pitched voice. That about sums up everything about her. Actually just a Thief later on because about an hour after her introduction her status as a tiefling basically never comes up again.

 

Grobnar

 

A Gnome Bard. About as unfunny as it gets. Neeshka might have had a stupid voice but at least she doesn't make bad jokes all the time.

 

Sand

 

Oh look, it's Vaarsuvius, except written by a talentless hack. Rated extra low on the list because whenever Sand opened his mouth I couldn't help but feel "Man Rich Burlew did this waaaay better."

 

Bishop

 

He's one of our two Token Evil Teammates. Bishop is the companion that got the most content cut out of the game, so here's the point where I'd normally say "he probably would have been better if he had been finished before the game shipped" but I think we all know that's not true. I could write about his betrayal and **** but honestly, I expected it to happen from his very first scene and was only surprised he waited as long as he did. I just didn't care when it happened and I don't care now, which should condemn his writing as much as anything.

 

Qara

 

You know what I hate the most about Qara? I'm a Wizard, so you'd think my character would have some sort of opinion about Qara's whole "I do magic naturally! I don't need no stinking books or discipline or academies!" I had so many things I wanted to say to Qara, and not once was I ever allowed to say what I was actually thinking. I could only do generic "Yes, Mistress, I am your sniveling lackey who lets you do whatever you want" and "No! Bad girl! Magic is for grown-ups!" Out of all the concepts for the companions here this was the one I think was the most wasted potential.

 

Casavir

 

A Paladin. Actually, the only thing I have else to say about Casavir (because, really, "Paladin" is pretty much all there is) is his romance arc: There's no "arc" here, no story the player is participating in. Casavir silently pines over you, occasionally hinting at his affections. Then, at the end, he confesses his love for you and you can either accept or reject his advances.

 

...Is this how the Obsidian writers think relationships are supposed to work from the female end? Not once are you ever allowed to hit on Casavir or even reciprocate his not-so-subtle affections. It's a storybook romance played from the wrong end. The not-so-handsome knight quests for the love of the beautiful princess, who just sits around doing nothing because she's a reward for the knight's bravery and virtue, and not a person with feelings and opinions. It's not only boring, terrible writing, but I honestly think it's kinda misogynist.

 

Zhjaeve

 

Oh look, it's the DM's mouthpiece character! Zhjaeve's only purpose is to tell you what McGuffin you need to fetch next, and to be a ****ty imitation of Dakkon.

 

Why is she so low on the list? One line. Just one:

 

"So here I will make an oath, stronger than the Pronouncement of Two Deaths: The Pronouncement of Three in Darkness, Two in Light."

 

No. No no no no no. Dakkon had actual character: The end of his character arc was a powerful moment because of what lead up to it and what it ultimately meant. You don't get to be more meaningful than that just by declaring it, you have to earn it. And you, Zhjaeve, have earned **** all. Don't you even ****ing dare.

 

Ammon Jerro

 

Alright. So this is the big one. Our other Token Evil Teammate. I'm gonna say this now, Ammon Jerro is probably the worst companion in any RPG I've ever played in my life. Every second he was on screen was unbearable pain, like dipping my face into a wood chipper. There's a lot I could complain about here but I'm gonna focus on the worst part.

 

Okay, Ammon, so you did all this evil stuff to protect your family, huh? Questions? Oh, I have several.

 

Number ONE, you say your family was "lost in the chaos" after the battle at west harbor with the king of shadows. What does that even mean? You couldn't find them so you assumed they were dead?

 

Number TWO, if you were on our side against the King of Shadows all along, why have you been constantly trying to kill me instead of trying to make peaceful contact and explaining what's going on? This would have saved us both a lot of trouble!

 

Number THREE, if you have powerful enough divination ability to find and harass me (and the other shard-holders) why didn't you use this to find your family? Or at the very least, try to get them raised?

 

Number FOUR, how could you possibly not have found your family when they were living at your old farm? The same farm where you stashed those magic items you went back to find in Act 3? How could you possibly have never thought to look there, even if your divinations wouldn't work on them directly for some reason?

 

Number FIVE, you say you didn't even know Shandra existed but she talked about how you sang songs to her as a kid. Did you just forget about this?

 

Number SIX, when Shandra entered your Manse and started teleporting around, did you really not notice her presence? With you claimed omnipotence inside the manse, I find it hard to believe you honestly didn't. Why didn't you confront her and talk to her? Why didn't you remember THE VERY ABILITIES YOU PUT INTO THE MANSE and be curious why this stranger could use them?

 

Number SEVEN, did you really need to bring a bunch of demons and destroy what little was left of West Harbor? The statue you wanted was way off in the mere. Couldn't you just port in and leave the village alone? Why did you need to cause so much extra pointless death and suffering?

 

The only explanation I can think for this is that Ammon Jerro is either a liar, or he's the biggest idiot to ever walk the planes. Probably both.

 

You know what I think, Ammon? I think you never cared about your family. Any of them. Maybe you told yourself that you did, but deep down they never really mattered to you. All that you ever cared about was how much wealth and power you could amass for yourself. After the battle your family wasn't "lost", you just told yourself that so you could run around making more pacts with demons without having to worry about feeling responsibility for them.

 

And for what, exactly, have you sacrificed so much? Your limpdick warlock casting? **** you. You don't even deserve whatever awaits you on the lower planes: Nothing they could do to you down there could possibly be any worse than you just being yourself.

 

And of course you're not allowed to kill him because Stupid Plot Contrivance #357. A contrivance that never even matters, because whenever a battle came up I always forgot my SLA's even existed: What did we need the Ritual of Purification for again, exactly? Cause that was a really long, really stupid series of terrible dungeon crawls that I really wish we could have just skipped. Also, I hate Ammon more than I could ever hate the king of shadows, can I just kill him as the final boss instead?

[Sannom]

Ammon Jerro

 

Alright. So this is the big one. Our other Token Evil Teammate. I'm gonna say this now, Ammon Jerro is probably the worst companion in any RPG I've ever played in my life. Every second he was on screen was unbearable pain, like dipping my face into a wood chipper. There's a lot I could complain about here but I'm gonna focus on the worst part.

 

Okay, Ammon, so you did all this evil stuff to protect your family, huh? Questions? Oh, I have several.

 

Number ONE, you say your family was "lost in the chaos" after the battle at west harbor with the king of shadows. What does that even mean? You couldn't find them so you assumed they were dead?

 

Number TWO, if you were on our side against the King of Shadows all along, why have you been constantly trying to kill me instead of trying to make peaceful contact and explaining what's going on? This would have saved us both a lot of trouble!

 

Number THREE, if you have powerful enough divination ability to find and harass me (and the other shard-holders) why didn't you use this to find your family? Or at the very least, try to get them raised?

 

Number FOUR, how could you possibly not have found your family when they were living at your old farm? The same farm where you stashed those magic items you went back to find in Act 3? How could you possibly have never thought to look there, even if your divinations wouldn't work on them directly for some reason?

 

Number FIVE, you say you didn't even know Shandra existed but she talked about how you sang songs to her as a kid. Did you just forget about this?

 

Number SIX, when Shandra entered your Manse and started teleporting around, did you really not notice her presence? With you claimed omnipotence inside the manse, I find it hard to believe you honestly didn't. Why didn't you confront her and talk to her? Why didn't you remember THE VERY ABILITIES YOU PUT INTO THE MANSE and be curious why this stranger could use them?

 

Number SEVEN, did you really need to bring a bunch of demons and destroy what little was left of West Harbor? The statue you wanted was way off in the mere. Couldn't you just port in and leave the village alone? Why did you need to cause so much extra pointless death and suffering?

Number ONE : if memory serves, Ammon wasn't really around after the battle of West Harbor, he was immediately dragged off by one of his contractors. It was Garius who freed him shortly before the beginning of the game, trying to use him to gain more knowledge of the Kind of Shadow, but Jerro managed to escape.

 

Number TWO : Ammon has an ego the size of a whale. Also, the most he managed to get out of Neverwinter the first time was a small amount of soldiers. At this point, he probably thought that he was the only one capable of succeeding in destroying the King of Shadows. One of the main points why I think Ammon was meant to be a deconstruction of Darth Revan as Obsidian painted him in KOTOR 2.

 

Number THREE : he believes they're all dead and a lot of time has passed since he disappeared. Also, he's the kind of guy who tends to forget everything else once he's set on a goal.

 

Number FOUR : he didn't search for them? When he mentions that he lost track of his family, it was during the war, not after. As I already mentionned, he wasn't around after the battle of West Harbor.

 

Number SEVEN : there is dummied-out content that shows that Ammon did not destroy West Harbor. He only walked through it.

[Labadal]

From the NWN2 OC, I liked the parts of the game spent in the city of Neverwinter.

I'd like to see a Project Eternity expansion that takes place in a big city. It wouldn't be about saving the entire world, but could still have all the fantasy stuff in there. I'd like to see a more political and faction based plot. It could be about you reaching the top, or your failure to do so. Dragon Age II didn't live up to what I was hoping for. The Divinity 2 expansion Flames of Vengance did it fairly well.

 

I'd still like to see a game that uses the Storm of Zehir dialog system. This would probably also be something to be considered for an expansion.

[Micamo]

Number ONE : if memory serves, Ammon wasn't really around after the battle of West Harbor, he was immediately dragged off by one of his contractors. It was Garius who freed him shortly before the beginning of the game, trying to use him to gain more knowledge of the Kind of Shadow, but Jerro managed to escape.

 

Where did this get mentioned? I must have missed it somewhere, because that's actually really important. I was under the impression that after the battle he just retreated to his manse to build up his power for round 2. If he was getting raked over the coals in the Nine Hells instead, yeah, that sortof excuses why he wasn't trying to contact his family during this time. Though why wasn't doing a few divinations to check in on anyone he cared about, like, the very first thing he did after being freed? It also doesn't explain stuff like why he didn't know the Githyanki kidnapped Shandra specifically to use her blood to assault Jerro's manse. He somehow had enough intelligence on his enemy to assault their home base with a ****load of demons and devils, but not enough to know what they were planning to do?

 

Number TWO : Ammon has an ego the size of a whale. Also, the most he managed to get out of Neverwinter the first time was a small amount of soldiers. At this point, he probably thought that he was the only one capable of succeeding in destroying the King of Shadows. One of the main points why I think Ammon was meant to be a deconstruction of Darth Revan as Obsidian painted him in KOTOR 2.

 

So he's an idiot, then. If you at the very least had the opportunity to bring this up in conversation and get him to try to justify himself on it, I could have swallowed this a little better, but as it stands you're supposed to just accept "Oh, he was murdering all those people For The Greater Good, so I don't need to question it at all."

 

Number SEVEN : there is dummied-out content that shows that Ammon did not destroy West Harbor. He only walked through it.

 

Are you SERIOUS!? Then what were the demons for? To fight the shadow reaver? But didn't the shadow reaver not even show up until after Ammon had already come and gone? It also doesn't explain why the Shadow Reaver hunted down and murdered everyone in West Harbor when they could have easily just skipped over it to get to the song portal, but at least they're supposed to be the villains so I can accept that they did it because "BWAR HAR HAR I R EBULZ" though it's still childishly bad writing.

[Sannom]

(1) Where did this get mentioned? I must have missed it somewhere, because that's actually really important. I was under the impression that after the battle he just retreated to his manse to build up his power for round 2.

 

(2) So he's an idiot, then. If you at the very least had the opportunity to bring this up in conversation and get him to try to justify himself on it, I could have swallowed this a little better, but as it stands you're supposed to just accept "Oh, he was murdering all those people For The Greater Good, so I don't need to question it at all."

 

(3) Are you SERIOUS!? Then what were the demons for? To fight the shadow reaver? But didn't the shadow reaver not even show up until after Ammon had already come and gone? It also doesn't explain why the Shadow Reaver hunted down and murdered everyone in West Harbor when they could have easily just skipped over it to get to the song portal, but at least they're supposed to be the villains so I can accept that they did it because "BWAR HAR HAR I R EBULZ" though it's still childishly bad writing.

(1) I think it's part of Ammon's dialog, if you manage to make him tell you about his complete history.

 

(2) I would have to replay the OC to ascertain it, but according to TvTropes, you can make him admit that his methods were flawed and that in the end, the only thing he has to show for all this is the blood of his grand-daughter on his hands. You need to have had a high reputation with Shandra though.

 

(3) The guy is fighting an abomination ready to invade the world with an army of undeads, and demons are basically his foot soldiers. Of course that he would take some to the swamp just in case. As for why West Harbor was destroyed... yeah that's about the point when the King of Shadow's forces started to really show themselves and West Harbor is basically on their doorstep.

[Stun]

 

Number SEVEN : there is dummied-out content that shows that Ammon did not destroy West Harbor. He only walked through it.

 

Are you SERIOUS!? Then what were the demons for? To fight the shadow reaver? But didn't the shadow reaver not even show up until after Ammon had already come and gone? It also doesn't explain why the Shadow Reaver hunted down and murdered everyone in West Harbor when they could have easily just skipped over it to get to the song portal, but at least they're supposed to be the villains so I can accept that they did it because "BWAR HAR HAR I R EBULZ" though it's still childishly bad writing.

 

There's been a crap-ton of debate about this particular issue. along with developer confirmation that, yes, it was the Shadow Reaver who destroyed West harbor.

 

There are still lingering questions, though, but you're not asking the right ones. For example, you ask why Ammon and his Demon cohorts bother to even go to West Harbor when they could have, instead, just gone straight to the Song Portal. Well, I have an answer to that: What makes you think they were looking for the song portal? Ammon was on 2 missions in that game. Collecting the Shards was his other mission, remember? And west harbor is where the sword shattered. And in that cutscene where he's there, he plainly says: "So the town still stands. Lets see if what I'm looking for is here". <---- Even if he's NOT looking for shard pieces here, his comment suggests that he's not quite sure where the song portal is anyway.

 

 

But I do agree with you that story writing was... unnecessarily convoluted. They kinda dropped the ball in this part, because they deliberately give us hints/suggestions that it was INDEED Ammon and his devils/demons who destroyed west harbor.

 

1) the bodies of the towns people. You can click on them and get a description of their state. They died the same way that the Nobles in Neverwinter did.... no marks on their bodies. Blood drained. (ie. the work of Ammon Jerro and his demons)

 

2) Neeshka, when she gets to west harbor immediatly senses the demonic destruction. She sniffs the air, feels the ground and says: "demons. Maybe a devil or 2. This place has been hit by the lower planes.

 

Conclusion: They Scrapped the content that was supposed to show that the Shadow Reaver destroyed West Harbor, and replaced it with content to show that Ammon Jerro did it. I couldn't begin to tell you why they'd do such a thing but the end result of course, is that it hurt the story.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

(2) I would have to replay the OC to ascertain it, but according to TvTropes, you can make him admit that his methods were flawed and that in the end, the only thing he has to show for all this is the blood of his grand-daughter on his hands. You need to have had a high reputation with Shandra though.

 

I definitely saw that conversation, and it was much weaker than it should have been. His "admission" is "Perhaps I acted somewhat too rashly and should have stopped to think more about my actions." More fitting would have been "Everything I've ever done was entirely pointless and nonsensical because I'm the biggest idiot who's ever lived," but honestly even that wouldn't have been very satisfying. Redemption plots need a lot more than that to come off as anything other than hackneyed, and for someone who's gone as far off the deep end as Ammon it'd probably be impossible to do well. And even if they could, it wouldn't fix the real problem: Ammon is the classic DM's pet. He creates plot holes and stupidity everywhere he goes because the DM cares more about using him as a masturbation aid than making a functioning narrative. If I had suffered as much abuse playing in a tabletop game as I had suffered in NWN2, that DM would have ended the game needing a new set of teeth.

 

 

But I do agree with you that story writing was... unnecessarily convoluted. They kinda dropped the ball in this part, because they deliberately give us hints/suggestions that it was INDEED Ammon and his devils/demons who destroyed west harbor.

1) the bodies of the towns people. You can click on them and get a description of their state. They died the same way that the Nobles in Neverwinter did.... no marks on their bodies. Blood drained. (ie. the work of Ammon Jerro and his demons)

 

2) Neeshka, when she gets to west harbor immediatly senses the demonic destruction. She sniffs the air, feels the ground and says: "demons. Maybe a devil or 2. This place has been hit by the lower planes.

 

Conclusion: They Scrapped the content that was supposed to show that the Shadow Reaver destroyed West Harbor, and replaced it with content to show that Ammon Jerro did it. I couldn't begin to tell you why they'd do such a thing but the end result of course, is that it hurt the story.

The most likely hypothesis: They had intended for the player to assume Ammon had done it, then reveal later that he hadn't as part of a "Ammon isn't the bad guy you think he is!" twist. Then the reveal moment had to be cut, probably at the last minute, but the red herring hints thrown in that it was Ammon were not. It was probably just a sloppy editing error at the end of a development crunch.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Micamo

[Stun]

To be fair, Ammon "redeems" and "repents" in gradual stages (the way a truly remorseful person who's done bad things usually does in real life). Don't forget the long "contemplation" scene at Shandra's farm. And then the way he rebukes Black Garius. And if you want to delve further, the comments he makes at the Thay College in Mask of the Betrayer.... All of which come *after* your interrogation of him at the bar in crossroad keep.

 

Many players won't even see the best of jerro's personal dialogue, since the majority of it is dependent on influence check successes... which aren't that easy to get with him.

 

 

And lets give Ammon a break here. He's a decently written character. You want a true example of Garbage writing in NWN 2? Zhaeve. There's your DM's pet. She's nothing but a faceless, emotionless, soulless plot device. And to add insult to the injury, they clearly tried to make her a Dakkon clone, and they failed horribly.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Stun

[ManifestedISO]

Gads, how do you people remember so many details. I should load a save and finish another OC, I guess, but the camera controls are a pain in my mouse. 

[rjshae]

The best element of NWN2 was the toolset and the ability to make your own D&D adventures. I wasn't all that excited by the campaigns.

[cleric Nemir]

Wow,you really had it goin on with that Ammon.. Personally,I liked him - he is what he is,a neutral evil person. Only about himself,doing everything to achieve what he wants with little regard to.. well,anything other than him. Yet still I managed to get him repent for Shandra.. I liked her too,was uber sad,almost didn't wanted to believe she ended up really dead. But being a deranged man surrounded with hellish affairs,pacts and plots got him,naturally,thinking that some demon did something in the Haven,found a "hole" much like he himself must had done numerous times to escape hells and ultimately bind those powerful creatures to do his bidding. This sounds believable to me. Paranoia is a strange thing.

Point is,Ammon - I found him as much convincing as a character as lord Nasher. Two best ,besides masterful job on Shandra's character, voiced and scripted chars in NWN2,if ya ask me. I hated and killed Elaine for example,got plenty positive inf with Quara,Neeshka,Bishop after that decision - Ammon didn't say a word,lol. The man simply doesn't give a flyin f about anything else than shards/ritual/king of shadows,and that remained true till the very end. Even if you have no influence with him,he will fight against the King - 'cause that's what HE wants. "One man,one mission" is the description of him. Ammon F***in Jerro.

[Darkpriest]

Not sure why all the hate to Ammon. I actually loved they way they went on with the story... for some time I was actually thinking that he may in league with the KoS and Garius.

 

Oh well. perhaps I have different standards, but to me it was a good game, definitely better than DA2.

[Stun]

Oh well. perhaps I have different standards, but to me it was a good game, definitely better than DA2.

LOL Well of course it was better than DA2. The Gamboy advance version of tetris is a better DA2. Getting a root canal is more fun than DA2.

 

Personally, I thought NWN2 was *great*. And to tie this to the thread topic, I think NWN2 did a few things exceptionally well and Project eternity could take a few hints.

 

1) as mentioned by others: The Stronghold. Crossroad keep was done about as good as any stronghold in any game I've ever played.

 

2) Act 1's Plot path. (ie Guards vs. thieves) I liked the idea behind it. And would love to see it done more often

 

3) The demonic/devil lore. Probably not going to see such a thing in PE since it's not D&D based, but I have always given NWN2 bonus points for getting it right. They do the personalities of the various types of Tanar'i, Baatezu etc. faithfully by the book. Something that Neither Torment, nor BG2 nor the Icewind dales suceeded in doing.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

LOL Well of course it was better than DA2. The Gamboy advance version of tetris is a better DA2. Getting a root canal is more fun than DA2.

 

Call me crazy, but I honestly think DA2 was better than NWN2's OC. DA2 was a mediocre RPG with a few new ideas that was unfortunately rushed out the door as fast as possible to make a quick buck, but NWN2 was a completely dysfunctional, broken mess with almost no salvageable pieces or redeemable qualities.

 

The demonic/devil lore. Probably not going to see such a thing in PE since it's not D&D based, but I have always given NWN2 bonus points for getting it right. They do the personalities of the various types of Tanar'i, Baatezu etc. faithfully by the book. Something that Neither Torment, nor BG2 nor the Icewind dales suceeded in doing.

 

The difference between Demons and Devils (and between Law and Chaos in general) is whatever the current sourcebook writer says it is, everyone has a different interpretation; There's not the slightest modicum of consistency anywhere so there's no baseline to be faithful to. You can say you liked NWN2's interpretation, but to claim that it's a faithful interpretation is just plain silly.

[Stun]

 

LOL Well of course it was better than DA2. The Gamboy advance version of tetris is a better DA2. Getting a root canal is more fun than DA2.

 

Call me crazy, but I honestly think DA2 was better than NWN2's OC.

 

Ok. You're crazy. lol

 

 

 

The demonic/devil lore. Probably not going to see such a thing in PE since it's not D&D based, but I have always given NWN2 bonus points for getting it right. They do the personalities of the various types of Tanar'i, Baatezu etc. faithfully by the book. Something that Neither Torment, nor BG2 nor the Icewind dales suceeded in doing.

 

The difference between Demons and Devils (and between Law and Chaos in general) is whatever the current sourcebook writer says it is, everyone has a different interpretation; There's not the slightest modicum of consistency anywhere so there's no baseline to be faithful to. You can say you liked NWN2's interpretation, but to claim that it's a faithful interpretation is just plain silly.

 

Alignments? No, that's not *at all* what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Personalities of the specific different types of fiends. Succubi who actually try to seduce. Balors with short tempers. Pit fiends with their lawyer-like cunning and plots. And then the lower, less intelligent types who's evil is more basic/primal. etc. In a simple run through Jerro's haven, you meet each of the different personalities. Again, this is something not explored in the other games. Torment and the Icewind dales only focussed on, as you say, Chaos vs. law with regards to the fiends. And BG2... bah. Fiends are little more than skins on a named opponent in that game. They *almost* got it right with Demogorgon, but that was just a matter of them doing a decent job by accident. The personality they gave him could have easily worked just as well had they used Orcus, or Baphomet, or any other demon prince. Edited May 28, 2013 by Stun

[Nonek]

Likes:

Protagonists involvement with the plot, ingenious.

West Harbour, more in essence than implementation, nice to have an origin.

Ambiguous nature of the supposed anatgonist, Ammon Jerro.

Framing of the protagonist and his trial, makes one wary of ones actions.

As mentioned before the stronghold, its management and upkeep.

Nolaloth's valley, for some reason this location struck me as enormously evocative.

Central concept of the King of Shadows.

Returning to West Harbour to unite the Sword of Gith.

Daeghun, a disapproving and distant father figure, very original and well rounded character.

Lorne Starlings genesis and slow reveal, was hoping to redeem this gentleman.

 

Dislikes:

Most of the companions, dry, dull and somewhat cliche. Not as bad as Bioware caricatures, but near.

Less choice than i'm used to in an Obsidian game.

Too much filler combat, once again not as bad as DA2, but still became a grind.

The Forgotten Realms specifically Neverwinter, as generic and overpowered as ever. Never liked this setting.

 

I will add that I do not think the dislikes i've mentioned really need to be stated, as with Mask of the Betrayer Obsidian proved they knew what they had done wrong, and how to improve upon it. Overall I liked the game, it told a well structured story, with surprising depth and numerous twists. I believe it merely needed a little cutting and trimming to bring the high points more into focus and diminish the negative aspects, still better than the modern dull brown alternating combat and conversation simulators which pass for RPG's lately.