The Jade Empire is making a bid

[Calax]

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323687604578467442670389684-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNjEwNDYyWj.html

 

 

Looks like China is gearing up to become a much larger player in the military sphere, and the Pentagon is unhappy with it. Particularly interesting to note is that they directly accused the Chinese of hacking and cyber attacks.

[Walsingham]

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323687604578467442670389684-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNjEwNDYyWj.html

 

 

Looks like China is gearing up to become a much larger player in the military sphere, and the Pentagon is unhappy with it. Particularly interesting to note is that they directly accused the Chinese of hacking and cyber attacks.

 

It is interesting, but the consensus, even among journalists seems to me to be that the Chinese have been doing it for about as long as the net has been around.

 

The problem is not IF. the problem is what to do about it.

 

Answers on a postcard.

[Gorgon]

They want to be able to carry out power projection with aircraft carriers like the US and don't understand why they should not be awarded the same indulgences in their territorial disputes as Russia.

 

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

[Rosbjerg]

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

[Calax]

I was more interested in the fact that only now is the Pentagon actually bringing it up and smacking China for that.

[Zoraptor]

Budget cuts and terrorism/ world police fatigue from the public means there has to be an enemy to point the guns you want funding for at. Also NSA devices with active 24/7 monitoring at every ISP- for your protection! etc etc.

 

A lot of the China hacking stuff is pretty questionable really, not because it doesn't happen but in the impact. Your awesome new product will inevitably be manufactured or sold in China and as soon as that happens all secrecy goes out the window anyway. It's also perfectly fair when Echelon was monitoring them due to technological advantage, or giving Boeing details of Airbus's tender bids for that matter, so overall the US is just going to have to Deal With It as others have been dealing with it for a long time. Or start an ewar which will do them a lot more damage than the Chinese.

[Gorgon]

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

 

I don't think western powers ever shied away from industrial espionage, especially involving military contracts. The strength of the economy directly affects defense after all.

[AGX-17]

"The Jade Empire." As someone with Han family, I just couldn't help but laugh at such cheese. I wonder how much of that conception is derived from "sources" like the Bioware game or Mortal Kombat.

 

I was more interested in the fact that only now is the Pentagon actually bringing it up and smacking China for that.

They didn't "smack China," the US government makes these announcements yearly, at the very least. Espionage in all forms is a two-way street when it comes to real players on the international stage. Have you ever heard of Sun Tzu? "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Edited May 7, 2013 by AGX-17

[Agiel]

"The Jade Empire." As someone with Han family, I just couldn't help but laugh at such cheese. I wonder how much of that conception is derived from "sources" like the Bioware game or Mortal Kombat.

 

I was more interested in the fact that only now is the Pentagon actually bringing it up and smacking China for that.

They didn't "smack China," the US government makes these announcements yearly, at the very least. Espionage in all forms is a two-way street when it comes to real players on the international stage. Have you ever heard of Sun Tzu? "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

 

 

I have heard the line "Soon the Four Asian Tigers shall bow to the Dragon!" before.

[Calax]

"The Jade Empire." As someone with Han family, I just couldn't help but laugh at such cheese. I wonder how much of that conception is derived from "sources" like the Bioware game or Mortal Kombat.

 

I was more interested in the fact that only now is the Pentagon actually bringing it up and smacking China for that.

They didn't "smack China," the US government makes these announcements yearly, at the very least. Espionage in all forms is a two-way street when it comes to real players on the international stage. Have you ever heard of Sun Tzu? "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

 

This was by far the most hard line declaration that China was hacking like crazy, and that they were significantly increasing their military power within their sphere.

 

And if you think I'm always referring to China as the "Jade Empire" you better check yourself. It's used for impact and name recognition rather than saying "the land that Zhuge Liang built".

[rjshae]

"Middle Kingdom" would work.

 

As for what to do about the cyber espionage... my perspective is that western businesses are currently in the position of having to individually defend their information against an entire nation-state. Each firm is left to figure it out on there own because there is very little 'concentration of force'; i.e. IT talent. A more unified approach may be efficacious, but that would likely require a different approach to network communication and IT collaboration.

Edited May 8, 2013 by rjshae

[Walsingham]

As rjshae says, Western businesses are like African Tribes up against Chinese redcoats. No cohesion, lower tech, if enthusiastic. And I'm old colonial stock. I know how that story ends.

 

This isn't just some big government thing. If you shop online or have a blog, or a games account online, or surf porn, or hold health insurance you are potentially leaking all that info to the Chinese govt. via hacking. It amuses me no end that peopel are less worried about the Chinese govt. spying on them than their own govt.

[Zoraptor]

The Chinese government can't do anything to me. My own government can. I can avoid the Chinese government easily. I can't avoid my own government. If the Chinese government has organ farms and forced labour and political repression it- ultimately- has no effect on me whatsoever. My own government's responses to their illegal spying is to make it retroactively legal, and to extend their powers to an almost Patriot Act level with deliberately imprecise wording that would allow spying on people based on any government official or department's say so.

 

And if you've bought stuff online or surfed midget trannie pr0n or whatever then your government will definitely know about it thanks to their black boxes scheme, let alone all the other stuff they can gather from the saturation CCTV and the like.

[Calax]

Technically our own government does have Echelon programs in place to try to root out domestic "terror". Problem is that there is no way that they can dig through the info properly. Where the home government becomes more of a threat than the Chinese, is the fact that if you become a "Person of interest" to them, all of a sudden you've got your phone tapped, your internet tapped, your entire life being dissected by government analysts to figure out every little thing you did that might lead them to be able to link you to nefarious deeds. THAT is not a pleasant position to be in.

 

Think about a government auditing your finances. Now think about that Audit not just being about your money, but also what you say, how you spend your time, who you talk to, where you take a leak, what porn you like... THAT is what your government will do to you, and they will act on what they find. The Chinese? They don't care about a single person, they want generalities. They want things that'll let them become an economic super power. They want to be able to shut down the internet and make the US military look like idiots because they don't even remember how they operated in the 1980's.

[Walsingham]

The Chinese government can't do anything to me. My own government can. I can avoid the Chinese government easily. I can't avoid my own government. If the Chinese government has organ farms and forced labour and political repression it- ultimately- has no effect on me whatsoever. My own government's responses to their illegal spying is to make it retroactively legal, and to extend their powers to an almost Patriot Act level with deliberately imprecise wording that would allow spying on people based on any government official or department's say so.

 

And if you've bought stuff online or surfed midget trannie pr0n or whatever then your government will definitely know about it thanks to their black boxes scheme, let alone all the other stuff they can gather from the saturation CCTV and the like.

 

I fully accept your point that the wolf at the door is scarier than the wolf in the woods. But what a fantastic 19th century view of China, and the World in general. They don't live on the Moon, you know? All those things you mention about China... you think they'd wouldn't leak into your life if China's dominance continues to grow? China's already a massive force in Africa and a growing force in the Mideast.

 

I'm equally fascinated at the notion that Chinese determination to subvert and weaken Western governments and industries is almost benign by comparison with our own governments and industries! Such loss of faith is no doubt attributable to the fecal refulgence of our state servants and commercial leaders. But we have democratic recourse and a tradition of reforming such things. They can be improved. By us. If we could be arsed.

[Calax]

Thing is, currently Chinese industry and commercial interests lie mostly in scavenging. They make cheap ripoffs rather than their own product, so they'll always need the US and other nations to provide them markets to steal from/sell to. The current global economic situation is that China, as a nation, cannot bring down the american government because it'd cost them to much money.

 

Our own government can because of the "our country tis of thee" jingoism that keeps slapping us in the face if we question them.

[NOK222]

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

 

We apparently attacked Iran's nuclear program like this. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

 

We apparently attacked Iran's nuclear program like this. 

 

 

Mmmm, thats is a good point. But don't you think the development of the Stuxnet virus was justified to slow down the Uranium enriching capabilities of Iran. Its not common to have this type of state organized cyber-terrorism perpetuated by the USA. But the Chinese have been doing it for years in order to gain economic advantage over other countries, I do think there is a difference?

[NOK222]

 

 

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

 

We apparently attacked Iran's nuclear program like this. 

 

 

Mmmm, thats is a good point. But don't you think the development of the Stuxnet virus was justified to slow down the Uranium enriching capabilities of Iran. Its not common to have this type of state organized cyber-terrorism perpetuated by the USA. But the Chinese have been doing it for years in order to gain economic advantage over other countries, I do think there is a difference?

 

Well it depends on who you view as the good guy or bad guy. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

As for the cyber attack stuff I imagine the same could be said about any number of powers.

 

Exactly, I'm sure this is done just as much from our direction, but since the secrets we want to steal are goverment and not industry as well they have an easier time covering it up.

 

We apparently attacked Iran's nuclear program like this. 

 

 

Mmmm, thats is a good point. But don't you think the development of the Stuxnet virus was justified to slow down the Uranium enriching capabilities of Iran. Its not common to have this type of state organized cyber-terrorism perpetuated by the USA. But the Chinese have been doing it for years in order to gain economic advantage over other countries, I do think there is a difference?

 

Well it depends on who you view as the good guy or bad guy. 

 

 

Thats obvious my friend

 

The West = Good Guy

 

China = Bad Guy

 

Okay I'm simplifying it little but you know what I mean.

[obyknven]

Thats obvious my friend

 

The West = Good Guy

 

China = Bad Guy

Your Eurocentrism is hilarious. Especially for guy from Africa. Proud white colonialist detected.

[Walsingham]

Nice to see someone no equivocating, Bruce. I utterly blame the 1960s for leaving us so full of self doubt and teenage angst that we refuse to act in our own defence for fear that we are the bad guys.

 

Of course I equally credit the 1960s for helping us to BE the good guys.

 

But if we don't act to defend ourselves against being stolen from, corrupted, and bullied then we won't stay the good guys for very ****ing long.

[BruceVC]

Nice to see someone no equivocating, Bruce. I utterly blame the 1960s for leaving us so full of self doubt and teenage angst that we refuse to act in our own defence for fear that we are the bad guys.

 

Of course I equally credit the 1960s for helping us to BE the good guys.

 

But if we don't act to defend ourselves against being stolen from, corrupted, and bullied then we won't stay the good guys for very ****ing long.

 

I hear you, I know when a person says that the West are the "good guys" its seems like a fatuous and unreasonable statement. But I stand by that.

 

For me what constitutes being a " good guy" are several factors that a country needs to follow  that include

 

• Freedom of speech
• Democracies and or elections that are free and fair
• Freedom of Religion
• Respecting human rights and having a Constitution that the current government adheres to
• The overall happiness of citizens and points like "do foreigners want to immigrate to this country". For example whats the immigration rate of people into Australia  vs Bulgaria ( this is just an example  but I'm sure you know what I mean)

[obyknven]

 

• Freedom of speech

Lol. I has banned even in 4chan because Western censorship, and never banned on Russian imageboards. Westlings don't known what really freedom is.

 

 

• Democracies and or elections that are free and fair

USA, choise without choice.

 

 

• Freedom of Religion

Try create own Religion, or try ressurect authentic pagan cults.

 

 

• Respecting human rights and having a Constitution that the current government adheres to

Constitutions protect rigths of rich people everywhere.

 

 

• The overall happiness of citizens and points like "do foreigners want to immigrate to this country". For example whats the immigration rate of people into Australia vs Bulgaria ( this is just an example  but I'm sure you know what I mean)

Facepalm. Foreigners want to immigrate to this country because job, not because happy life.

[BruceVC]

s

 

 

• Freedom of speech

Lol. I has banned even in 4chan because Western censorship, and never banned on Russian imageboards. Westlings don't known what really freedom is.

 

 

• Democracies and or elections that are free and fair

USA, choise without choice.

 

 

• Freedom of Religion

Try create own Religion, or try ressurect authentic pagan cults.

 

 

• Respecting human rights and having a Constitution that the current government adheres to

Constitutions protect rigths of rich people everywhere.

 

 

• The overall happiness of citizens and points like "do foreigners want to immigrate to this country". For example whats the immigration rate of people into Australia vs Bulgaria ( this is just an example  but I'm sure you know what I mean)

Facepalm. Foreigners want to immigrate to this country because job, not because happy life.

 

 

Oby you are just bitter because you live in a country that doesn't respect the rights of it citizens. Do you know how many Journalists have been murdered in Russia because they are trying to expose the corruption of government ministers and oligarchs  ? Its a disgrace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia