What's going on in Boston?

[Rostere]

So it seems that the suspects  are Muslims from Chechnya, but that doesn't mean we are saying that all Muslims are extremists or if there motives were around political ideology, but we can discuss other facts.

 

Chechnya has had a long and violent history with Russia and we also know that certain extremists and people prepared to commit violent acts of terrorism have come from this country. So we need to watch this space

 

Yeah, I was wrong there...  Suddenly it seems very likely they were politically motivated.

 

Also, they were originally from Kyrgystan, having later moved to Dagestan in Russia (according to what I just heard).

[Malcador]

Hm, apparently he's out wearing a suicide vest.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Ah so the same people that the US financed and helped train to kill Russian soldiers and civilians are now killing US civilians.

 

History indeed, has a sense of irony.

[Walsingham]

Ah so the same people that the US financed and helped train to kill Russian soldiers and civilians are now killing US civilians.

 

History indeed, has a sense of irony.

 

That particular irony is SO 2003.

[BruceVC]

n

 

So it seems that the suspects  are Muslims from Chechnya, but that doesn't mean we are saying that all Muslims are extremists or if there motives were around political ideology, but we can discuss other facts.

 

Chechnya has had a long and violent history with Russia and we also know that certain extremists and people prepared to commit violent acts of terrorism have come from this country. So we need to watch this space

 

Yeah, I was wrong there...  Suddenly it seems very likely they were politically motivated.

 

Also, they were originally from Kyrgystan, having later moved to Dagestan in Russia (according to what I just heard).

 

I also said the same thing that I didn't think it had anything to do with Al-Qeada

[Rostere]

Ah so the same people that the US financed and helped train to kill Russian soldiers and civilians are now killing US civilians.

 

History indeed, has a sense of irony.

 

The Russians would be cheering right now. When the US has also become a target for Chechnyan terrorists they can crack down hard on them back at home without risking much criticism. Sadly, that is how the psychology of the public mind works.

 

It appears they were Muslim, but I'm still skeptic as to whether they were part of some organization or if they just freaked out and acted on their own. Apparently the older brother was a sportsman - a boxer. That would explain the idea to attack a sports event.

[Walsingham]

If I may take an interim show of hands (so to speak), are we all agreed that more fundamentally than any political creed the perpetrators were vain worthless arseholes?

 

I just enjoy the rare shreds of consensus we achieve at times like this.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Walsingham

[Malcador]

Wonder if they'll get him alive.

[BruceVC]

Wonder if they'll get him alive.

 Excellent question, without being ghoulish I will wager he shouldn't be taken alive as he would want to martyr himself

[Malcador]

Is interesting to follow this via social sites, people have radio scanners and so on - like the confrontation with Dorner.  Although, some guy making a fake twitter account is, while not surprising, disappointing.

 

But yeah, I guess he's not going to be taken alive.  

[Walsingham]

 

Wonder if they'll get him alive.

 Excellent question, without being ghoulish I will wager he shouldn't be taken alive as he would want to martyr himself

 

Assuming the info 'leaking' out is sound I'd put a fiver on him eventually surrendering if they catch him right. Remember that it's not unknown to have vested (no pun intended) suicide bombers surrender. The reality of what is going on can eventually hit home.

 

From my own experience it can get very scary when you know you could die soon. I just wanted to hang onto everything, as if dying was like sliding off everyday details, like gravel and birdsong, as you might slide off a lilo. Thinking about that it's hard for me not to hope the guy surrenders.

 

I know I said that these guys are worthless ****, but you do get kids barrelled along sometimes, and maybe this is just some little brother with seriously misplaced hero workship issues.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Wonder if they'll get him alive.

 Excellent question, without being ghoulish I will wager he shouldn't be taken alive as he would want to martyr himself

 

Assuming the info 'leaking' out is sound I'd put a fiver on him eventually surrendering if they catch him right. Remember that it's not unknown to have vested (no pun intended) suicide bombers surrender. The reality of what is going on can eventually hit home.

 

From my own experience it can get very scary when you know you could die soon. I just wanted to hang onto everything, as if dying was like sliding off everyday details, like gravel and birdsong, as you might slide off a lilo. Thinking about that it's hard for me not to hope the guy surrenders.

 

I know I said that these guys are worthless ****, but you do get kids barrelled along sometimes, and maybe this is just some little brother with seriously misplaced hero workship issues.

 

Good points raised, lets see how the ending transpires. I still believe he will martyr himself

[Nepenthe]

 

Agreed.  It was crazy watching runners that pretty much didn't break stride, they just stopped running a race and started running to help.  Not just the runners, but everyone.

 

 

Cheers mate!

There's a fair number of doctors, and others in the medical profession that are marathon runners - my brother included. I think a lot of people are just geared to want to help people, especially nurses, medics and doctors.

Yes, they are also conditioned to react rapidly to changing circumstances.

[Hurlshort]

I read a report that they came to the US almost 10 years ago, that means this younger brother was only about 10.  So his commitment might not be the same as his older brother.

[LadyCrimson]

Is interesting to follow this via social sites, people have radio scanners and so on

I'm finding that irritating. Not that people are listening (I've been doing that myself off and on) but that they're then blabbing it all over the internet. It's what the law forces use to communicate with each other, reporting their movements/situations. Don't frakking announce/repeat their movements all over the internet in real time for ***** sake. The suspect may still have internet/twitter etc. access too y'know.

 

Same with media news people. Don't endanger any lives please. Sheesh.

 

That all said ... essentially shutting down all of Boston now and I think I heard it's also become a no-fly zone? That's pretty much unheard of (for a manhunt)? I tried to go to sleep but it's so nuts I got back up to listen in again. 

[Malcador]

Hm, true enough, but they send secure traffic on a secured channel I'd imagine so not much risk.  And the people the cops are hunting can listen in on the radio as well. 

[LadyCrimson]

They've put out their official requests for social media people to stop doing it, actually. Respect it.

 

I realize they probably do have other means of communication but seriously....it's just irresponsible when you don't know the situation. The guy might be able to view twitter but not load the scanner stuff/have a police scanner himself.  Point is we don't know. At least don't relate such for 20 minutes or something.

 

PS I think CNN's been doing a lot of delay (a short delay) showing on their video or something, so they can omit potential images etc.

[Rostere]

From what I gather, these guys seem to be pro-Chechnyan independence. Still, I don't think that or really any other political reason was behind this attack. It would be pretty senseless and stupid to attack the US in order to try to achieve that anyway.

 

The older brother apparently said "I don't have any American friends" (haven't got the source). They have lived for such a long time in the US as well.

 

Taking "harming individuals in order to change the political opinions of a group" as the definition of terrorism, I think they were not terrorists as much as serial murderers. I don't think that their motive was to coerce the American public opinion as much as killing people they don't like in cold blood, thereby destroying (a miniscule part of) a society they disapprove of.

 

The chilling insight there is that just being Muslim might be the spark which makes confused and angry people go over the edge and do things like this. With the attention given to Muslim terrorists, a Muslim living in Western society who is confused, angry and disappointed with society will have their easy solution on a silver plate: "No, it's not just me who is a miserable person, but Western society which is really beyond saving. This extreme group who preaches killing infidels is right!" The moderate Muslims, and indeed everyone else, who disapprove of killings like these will have to drown the public perception of a conflict between Islam and the Western world, and show how the killing of innocents in such a cowardly and despicable way is against their religion. It's a pity that for every murderer who claims inspiration from the Quran, a thousand credible Muslim voices must speak out against it in order to heal the wound in Islam's self-perception.

 

Has anyone thought about that almost every Muslim "terrorist" or murderer since the 9/11 bombing has been educated, "westernized", even well-off with a promising future (like the younger brother from Boston, a medical student)? The bad guys are not foreigners who've just come from their homeland to kill. They are angry regular dudes with an inferiority complex who happen to be Muslim. When the West portrays a typical Muslim as a terrorist, Muslims who live in the West will come to adjust to that position themselves and believe that blowing themselves up or killing people is what devout Muslims should do when they're unhappy.

 

If I may take an interim show of hands (so to speak), are we all agreed that more fundamentally than any political creed the perpetrators were vain worthless arseholes?

 

I just enjoy the rare shreds of consensus we achieve at times like this.

 

I guess maybe LoF would be the only person to disagree?

[Malcador]

Well posting about search locations, but a bunch of cops in an area isn't subtle in any case.  A lot of scanner stuff is mundane on this, some guy named Kevin signing off for the week, helicopter of some callsign rotating back to base to refuel, etc.

[Blodhemn]

That quote, "I don't have single American friend" - came from this site http://johanneshirn.photoshelter.com/gallery/Will-Box-For-Passport/G0000VQW7v6xWA7o/ which seems to be him. Weird thing is, I saw those pictures and his story months ago..

[Malcador]

This sure is getting crazier now, heh.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Ah so the same people that the US financed and helped train to kill Russian soldiers and civilians are now killing US civilians.

 

History indeed, has a sense of irony.

 

That particular irony is SO 2003.

 

How so? The mere passage of time implies what exactly? Absolution?

 

Back then they were "courageous freedom fighters", for doing the same thing they're doing now. Now they're "terrorists that should be shot on sight" all of a sudden.

 

Which is it?

Edited April 19, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 When the West portrays a typical Muslim as a terrorist, Muslims who live in the West will come to adjust to that position themselves and believe that blowing themselves up or killing people is what devout Muslims should do when they're unhappy. 

 

So give them all a free happy meal. Make them feel better.

[Hurlshort]

Drowsy, what connection are you making exactly?  These two men would have been children at the time of that event.  Apparently the older brother actually attended School Number One, but they left the country a year before that happened.

 

The uncle has been interviewed, and it was refreshing to hear him call his nephews losers that have disgraced the family.  Usually the family is pretty quiet about this stuff.

 

I agree this seems less political or religious and more a horrific act committed by two boys who felt like outsiders.

[Malcador]

Always nice when they declare their loyalty loudly, after all.  Media should just leave him alone.  I think he just meant people calling out the irony of Western proxies turning on them just being old hat, Drowsy