Weapon Class mastery vs General Weapon mastery

[Cultist]

In Baldur's Gate, NWN and some other RPGs usually we can choose to specialize in certain Weapon Classes, or example Two-Handed swords, daggers, axes, bows, crossbows or Polearms. Yet sometimes RPG only provide us with options like  One Handed, Two-Handed, Ranged weapon mastery or dual-wield, allowing every weapon class to receive bonuses from chosen mastery. So characters could be equally skille with both Bow and Crossbow, halberd and Spear etc.

 

In my opinion, Baldur's Gate approach were more interesting. You could invest more "personality" in your characters and also had to search for specific weapons and act according to your chosen weapon mastery.

Should we have more general weapon mastery system, then players would simply exchange rare axe for more  powerful sword, then sword for even more powerful mace and so on. Reducinggameplay aspect to simple item exchange.

Yet Baldur's Gate had one grave flaw that harmed this approach tremendously - some weapon types were seriously underrepresented - game were stuffed with two and one-handed swords but almost no top tier polearms, same goes for other weapons.

IMHO PE should have more specific weapon classes to master and avoid generalization of battle skills.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Cultist

[Osvir]

I agree. Baldur's Gate has the most interesting method.

However, I believe that a Baldur's Gate+TES hybrid could be interesting as well. "Weapon Level" or "Weapon Experience" more akin to how "Combat Experience" is handled in many RPG's (get experience when you take down your enemies, not when you chop at them).

Weapons having their own D&D-like experience tables (Level 1: 0/100, Level 2: 100/1'000, Level 3: 1'000/10'000 etc. etc.)

Yay/This is what I am advocating: Take down bandit = 15 Weapon Experience (Mechanically speaking: "Combat Experience")
Nay/This is not what I am advocating: Chop at bandit = Weapon Experience (TES)

[Sensuki]

P:E is doing thematic weapon proficiencies. Well actually I'm pretty sure everyone can use any weapon, but if you want to specialize, you specialize in a theme such as "common weapons" or "knight's weapons" or something like that, I'm sure they'll have their own themes based on the cultures and social hierarchies etc.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Sensuki

[JFSOCC]

In Baldur's Gate, NWN and some other RPGs usually we can choose to specialize in certain Weapon Classes, or example Two-Handed swords, daggers, axes, bows, crossbows or Polearms. Yet sometimes RPG only provide us with options like  One Handed, Two-Handed, Ranged weapon mastery or dual-wield, allowing every weapon class to receive bonuses from chosen mastery. So characters could be equally skille with both Bow and Crossbow, halberd and Spear etc.

 

In my opinion, Baldur's Gate approach were more interesting. You could invest more "personality" in your characters and also had to search for specific weapons and act according to your chosen weapon mastery.

Should we have more general weapon mastery system, then players would simply exchange rare axe for more  powerful sword, then sword for even more powerful mace and so on. Reducinggameplay aspect to simple item exchange.

Yet Baldur's Gate had one grave flaw that harmed this approach tremendously - some weapon types were seriously underrepresented - game were stuffed with two and one-handed swords but almost no top tier polearms, same goes for other weapons.

IMHO PE should have more specific weapon classes to master and avoid generalization of battle skills.

While I understand where you are coming from, If the first weapon I find is an axe, I'd be more likely to invest in axe mastery when I level up. permanently setting me on the path to axe play. I will NEVER invest in another mastery any more, because that would mean I've wasted my investment in axe mastery. Meaning if loot drops are predetermined (within a degree) you'd be fairly certain how most player choices would play out, eventually.

 

So, either allow respec, or force a player to pick more than one weapon proficiency whenever he invests in a weapon skill.

 

As in. You pick "weapon skill" as skill improvement. then you get a list of weapons and you are forced to divide three points over various weapons, with maximum one point per weapon per skill level.

 

This way you'll always have some specialisations other than the first bloody thing you've come across, and you still get to be fairly specific with your specialisation choices.

[rjshae]

To me, specialization based on weapon usage style makes more sense:

• Swing vs. thrust vs. hybrid
• Fast/very fast vs. slow
• One-handed vs. two-handed
• Solid shaft vs. hinged or flexible
• Hurled vs. projected vs. gunpowder/magic

Specialization in a specific weapon would be okay, but I think it should have a prerequisite of two or more of the above.

[Lephys]

While I understand where you are coming from, If the first weapon I find is an axe, I'd be more likely to invest in axe mastery when I level up. permanently setting me on the path to axe play.

 

The solution to this would be simply to provide the opportunity to use a variety of weapon types before the opportunity to specialize in a particular weapon type presents itself.

 

 

To me, specialization based on weapon usage style makes more sense:

• Swing vs. thrust vs. hybrid
• Fast/very fast vs. slow
• One-handed vs. two-handed
• Solid shaft vs. hinged or flexible
• Hurled vs. projected vs. gunpowder/magic

Specialization in a specific weapon would be okay, but I think it should have a prerequisite of two or more of the above.

 

I kind of like this idea, too. Maybe "fighting style" would be a more apt thing for multi-tiered specialization, and maybe there'd also be a one-time specialization with specific weapons/weapon types?

 

The fighting style advancements could provide bonus effects and abilities to your use of weaponry in various ways, while the one-time weapon specializations could simply provide permanent, minor attack speed and/or damage bonuses, etc.

 

OR, forget the one-time weapon specializations, and go with Trashman's Familiarity proposal to handle that other facet of minor bonuses for specific weaponry. 8P

Edited April 3, 2013 by Lephys

[AGX-17]

In Baldur's Gate, NWN and some other RPGs usually we can choose to specialize in certain Weapon Classes, or example Two-Handed swords, daggers, axes, bows, crossbows or Polearms. Yet sometimes RPG only provide us with options like  One Handed, Two-Handed, Ranged weapon mastery or dual-wield, allowing every weapon class to receive bonuses from chosen mastery. So characters could be equally skille with both Bow and Crossbow, halberd and Spear etc.

 

In my opinion, Baldur's Gate approach were more interesting. You could invest more "personality" in your characters and also had to search for specific weapons and act according to your chosen weapon mastery.

Should we have more general weapon mastery system, then players would simply exchange rare axe for more  powerful sword, then sword for even more powerful mace and so on. Reducinggameplay aspect to simple item exchange.

Yet Baldur's Gate had one grave flaw that harmed this approach tremendously - some weapon types were seriously underrepresented - game were stuffed with two and one-handed swords but almost no top tier polearms, same goes for other weapons.

IMHO PE should have more specific weapon classes to master and avoid generalization of battle skills.

I think there ought to be a distinction between weapon type/class and fighting style/technique. Not saying that you should be able to dual wield greatswords, but that, for example, dual-wielding should be an option for certain weapons, and mastery of those weapons ought to synergize with the fighting style in question. Meaning using the character's chosen weapon type with their chosen fighting style should result in greater raw efficacy than if they were dual wielding significantly more powerful enchanted weapons of a different class in which they aren't specialized. i.e. You've got two base steel Seaxes and a +5 fire enchanted, armor piercing longsword (in which you haven't specialized,) using the two base, unenchanted weapons would yield a generally superior combat performance (unless you're fighting some sort of ice golem with extremely high DT and a severe weakness to fire.) Edited April 4, 2013 by AGX-17

[Sensuki]

Since my post was ignored.

 

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=6#post409741726

That is exactly what standard D&D 3E/3.5 BAB and broad weapon proficiencies suggest, though. Unless a character chooses Weapon Focus or Specialization, they are just as good with any weapon they have proficiency in, all other stats being equal.

 

The idea of allowing players to specialize in styles is just an expansion of feats like Two-Weapon Fighting. Pathfinder already effectively did this even in their core rulebook.

 

If we do wind up providing options for direct weapon specialization, it will likely be in themed groups, like Cowboy and Grunt in F:NV.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=7#post410868395

It will likely be broader than a specific weapon and thematically-grouped in the same way that Cowboy and Grunt were in F:NV. E.g. Aristocrat Weapons might cover Rapier, Pistol, etc. Peasant Weapons might cover Quarterstaff, Hunting Bow, Hatchet, etc.

All classes can use all weapons (without a penalty I assume)

 

If you want to specialize the options will be thematic, so you have a bunch of different weapons to choose from / switch between where you get your specialization bonus.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[Frenetic Pony]

Don't think Baldur's Gate was interesting at all, it was still a "this item is better than this one" just narrower. "I do swords, is this sword better than this one?" Then unless it was some legendary thing it was "Oh, I got a mace, I don't use mace's, sell item!"

 

Neither general nor specific weapon skills actually sounds interesting by themselves. Though as I understand it they're trying to make different weapons useful in different situations. So if you have a character that has a lot of single weapon specializations i.e. Dudehuge has skill in "Two handed swords, one handed maces, spears, and short swords" then it's useful to have all of those potentially, as you could end up with a scenario to use each of those weapons and a weapon of each of those types.

 

Then again more general weapon specializations would allow you to switch more people for the situation. The biggest downfall I can see then is having very specific weapon specializations and making it highly impractical or crippling for SOMEone in your party to have a lot of weapons specializations. I.E. "I have this awesome mace and a huge boss that's weak to maces, too bad I didn't choose maces as a skill for anyone because the game would have borked me for making sure I did!"

Edited April 4, 2013 by Frenetic Pony

[Sensuki]

I love it how people just read the OP and then reply

 

These problems have already been considered and solved.

[Frenetic Pony]

I love it how people just read the OP and then reply

 

These problems have already been considered and solved.

 

 

The dev's idea of "bonuses only!" is classic game design, it's still a "negative" from a certain perspective, but it's a positive from the player's perspective and that's what matters! Still, like I asked is there going to be a class good at specializing in multiple weapon categories I wonder? If they stick with the "all people can use weapons well enough" it might not really matter, which might not make it as interesting of course.

 

Thanks for the quotes BTW! Hadn't seen those.

[Sensuki]

There are not any class weapon specializations I don't believe.

 

Some classes will have inherit bonuses (fighters small accuracy bonus with melee, rangers bonus with ranged etc)

Otherwise I believe how good you are with a weapon is determined by your attributes and the talents you choose.

 

It took me a while to find those quotes, so I think I'll just not bother to find these ones Do a bit of searching for classes and you'll probably find the info.

 

Logically if you want to specialize In a bunch of weapons, you'd probably want to choose a fighter. But as I said, you can use any weapon you like as any class without a penalty, so if you need to use a specific weapon for a specific tactic, you aren't going to be penalized for it, just other classes may be better at it naturally.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[AGX-17]

Since my post was ignored.

 

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=6#post409741726

That is exactly what standard D&D 3E/3.5 BAB and broad weapon proficiencies suggest, though. Unless a character chooses Weapon Focus or Specialization, they are just as good with any weapon they have proficiency in, all other stats being equal.

 

The idea of allowing players to specialize in styles is just an expansion of feats like Two-Weapon Fighting. Pathfinder already effectively did this even in their core rulebook.

 

If we do wind up providing options for direct weapon specialization, it will likely be in themed groups, like Cowboy and Grunt in F:NV.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=7#post410868395

It will likely be broader than a specific weapon and thematically-grouped in the same way that Cowboy and Grunt were in F:NV. E.g. Aristocrat Weapons might cover Rapier, Pistol, etc. Peasant Weapons might cover Quarterstaff, Hunting Bow, Hatchet, etc.

All classes can use all weapons (without a penalty I assume)

 

If you want to specialize the options will be thematic, so you have a bunch of different weapons to choose from / switch between where you get your specialization bonus.

 

 

Your post didn't actually cover half the concepts referenced. Your post also didn't link to a list of Sawyer's Something Awful posts on the subject, either. You say "ignore" but you really mean "provided no precognitive links to a list of Sawyer's SA forum posts clarifying the matter in question in order to prevent a prophesied post from being made."

[Sensuki]

What use is replying to it now ?

[TrashMan]

Start with general and more towards more specific.

 

Each class can use every weapon (but IIRC, with a penalty?)

then on top of tha you get:

 

First tier - general proficiency/style:

two-handed, one-handed, shield + weapon, dual weapon, etc....

 

 

Second tier, specialization:

Two-handed: polarms, two-handed swords, two-handed axes, spears

One handed: swords, axs, hammers/maces, flails, etc...

Shield+weapon: large shields, small shields

 

 

Third tier, familiarity/focus:

Two-handed; two-handed swords: claymore, zweihander, flambarge, etc...

Two-handed; polearms: pike, halberd, godendag, etc...

Shield+weapon; large shield: tower shield, kite shield, spiked fortress shield, etc...

Edited April 5, 2013 by TrashMan

[Lephys]

^ My brain is toying with the idea of some kind of tier 4 bonus. ONE more layer of minor bonus, for a specific weapon that you use enough. Maybe it would rely on some kind of gauge, similar to XP for leveling up (only it would simply be a matter of filling and getting the 4th-tier bonus, or not-filling it and not getting the bonus... there would not be multiple levels). *shrug*

 

BUT, A) I can't really think of the best way to handle that right now, and B) I'm really not entirely sure it's at all necessary. I'm not sure the added layer of complexity isn't greater than what the player would gain from that, in terms of game quality. That might just be applying a coat of chrome to an already-fine system. 8P

 

Like I said... brain -- toying...