Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[babaganoosh13]

The videos that I've seen of her are entertaining and informative enough to back up her opinion, and make it watchable. I objected to less of what she had to say than David Cage's at DICE. Of course, that was much longer, and he was giving his opinion of where he felt games needed to go, versus Anita's video 1 here. Which is more of a historical report of where games were, and in some degrees are.

 

Basically my main objection to what David said was something along the lines that games should be made for everybody. I just find that when you try to do that, you make something nobody really wants. Except Tetris.

 

I seen her quick clip on the

. I was expecting something more like this:

 

 

Of course, that is more of why everyone should hate Twilight.

Edited March 20, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[alanschu]

Though Edward is pretty creepy too haha.

[Malcador]

Well, he should be violent, sadistic and abusive - he's a vampire after all, no ? Monsters and all.

[Amentep]

 

 

 

She hardly ever states criticism, it's more by tone, sarcasm, and implication that she communicates she has a problem with something.

 

Maybe its just me, but that doesn't seem to be out of the norm. Modern popular critical thought seems to boil down to snark and clever one-liners.

The sad part is that discourse today is less about presenting ideas with rhetoric and more about one liners, catchy catchphrases and overall just being an ass. 

We had rhetoric classes at school. One lesson I remember is to leave your strongest argument for last, to make the biggest impact.

In practice? Your audience will stop listening at the part they think is wrong or the stupidest and call you out on it. That was my experience, at least.

No wonder rhetoric died. :D

 

I'm not sure I really care too much about classical rhetoric so much as I'm against criticism as being solely a bunch of pithy zingers, as if life was a comic strip with the need for a punch line in panel 3.

 

 

Hey, you know what's funny? On that other forum, some poeple actually claimed that using the Damsel in Distress trope is brainwashing/conditioning people to look at women as inferior.

 

The idea that media (not just games) perpetuating stereotypes as having negative effects isn't really new.  Damsel in Distress gets critiqued across the boards.  Anita is just looking at it in games for this video (and her second one).

 

Although, to be honest, a lot of the "this {thing} in new media has negative effect" studies have been horribly skewed in how they collect and/or interpret data (whether the {thing} is violence, sex, language, gender portrayals).

 

During a flap over the rise of action cartoons in the early 90s and how the violence in them would negatively effect kids, a review of a random sample of cartoons that played on a Saturday morning found the most violent (in this case violent defined as "actions that could be (a) imitated and (b) injurious) cartoon was a near 30 year old episode of The Flintstones which the angry parents would have watched growing up themselves, most likely.

 

Or look at the flaws in Fredrick Wetham's SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT study (which covered new media Comic Books and Television at the time).

 

That doesn't mean that its not worth looking at the impact negative concepts in media make, I should say, but that we have to be careful to give merit to studies that use some rigor in data collection and interpretation, which means the study has to make its methodology transparent.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Amentep

[alanschu]

Although, to be honest, a lot of the "this {thing} in new media has negative effect" studies have been horribly skewed in how they collect and/or interpret data (whether the {thing} is violence, sex, language, gender portrayals).

 

Agreed.

 

Part of the issue of social science is that it's a "science" in that it tries to employ scientific method (i.e. empiricism) but with serious handicaps in terms of trying to set up experiments without bias influencing it.  Natural science can have bias too, obviously, but gravity typically doesn't decide to false report due to social pressure

Edited March 20, 2013 by alanschu

[AwesomeOcelot]

Well, he should be violent, sadistic and abusive - he's a vampire after all, no ? Monsters and all.

It's like she's on a crusade against fun.

The idea that media (not just games) perpetuating stereotypes as having negative effects isn't really new. Damsel in Distress gets critiqued across the boards. Anita is just looking at it in games for this video (and her second one).

Although the evidence base is non-existent about what effect the damsel in distress actually has, and what responsibility do games have.

[alanschu]

 

Although the evidence base is non-existent about what effect the damsel in distress actually has, and what responsibility do games have.

 

It could very well be that games don't have any responsibility.

 

I doubt Anita concludes that, but it could just simply be a case of "Aspiring gamers would like better representation and depiction in the media they consume" with respect to what level Damsel in Distress has.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Although, to be honest, a lot of the "this {thing} in new media has negative effect" studies have been horribly skewed in how they collect and/or interpret data (whether the {thing} is violence, sex, language, gender portrayals).

 

Agreed.

 

Part of the issue of social science is that it's a "science" in that it tries to employ scientific method (i.e. empiricism) but with serious handicaps in terms of trying to set up experiments without bias influencing it.  Natural science can have bias too, obviously, but gravity typically doesn't decide to false report due to social pressure

 

That's what IATs are for.

[babaganoosh13]

I (try to - usually succeed) keep my kids away from cartoon networks with ads. That's largely because I don't want them bugging me about every dang toy they see on tv.

 

It's weird and sad seeing how much it has regressed even from the beginning of the 80s. With

from

, and this one on

. It's a good additional perspective on it, and it's really hard to argue some of it. I mean, yeah: There should be cool toys. However, it's also good to get perspective on the trends of the stereotypes the ads and some of the toys themselves have.

 

When I don't have my kids at friends places with their kids, indoors it's usually video games, Mega Blocks, and Crazy Forts: Until of course my 15 month old comes along and destroys them all.

 

It's strange and sad when my (almost) 6yr old daughter can kick my butt at some of the Just Dance songs. And I'm trying.

[alanschu]

 

That's what IATs are for.

 

I'm not sure what the acronym stands for, but attempts certainly are made to try to isolate bias as much as one can.  The big issue is that of replication.  It's not possible to take a life and run an experiment, then reset that life and isolate for all variables and introduce the change you wish to observe.

[Chaz]

That doesn't mean that its not worth looking at the impact negative

concepts in media make, I should say, but that we have to be careful to

give merit to studies that use some rigor in data collection and

interpretation, which means the study has to make its methodology

transparent.

 

Yeah and nobody is saying that there is no worth in studying these kinds of things, but one of my biggests objections to Anita's video is that this is not a study of any sort, she already concluded in advance that video games are responsible for misogyny.

 

I pointed out several flaws, but her supporters just don't even read it, they don't want to deal with those arguments. Personally, I can't take them seriously until some evidence is presented that this tropes are actually responsible for real world misogyny.

 

What I have noted is that the many of the top gaming countries in the world are among the countries with less sexism, specially in the western world. On the other hand, the countries that are terribly sexists and oppresive against women, not much of a gaming scene there. If anything I think that's a very positive correlation showing that countries with artistic freedom and freedom of speech are going in the right direction.

[Sannom]

Yeah and nobody is saying that there is no worth in studying these kinds of things, but one of my biggests objections to Anita's video is that this is not a study of any sort, she already concluded in advance that video games are responsible for misogyny.

No. She studies the influence of millenia-old tropes in video games and sometimes express her wishes that the industry would outgrow them. She doesn't make a case that video games are inherently misogynist and that they should be banned and censored. She isn't against free speech. She isn't like the NRA or whatever group you used in your analogy with the 'video games make our kids violent' debate. She isn't a terrorist throwing kangaroo courts for the weak and bullied game industry (seriously, I can't be the only one who thought 'Godwin' at that point, right?). Although it is a fact that women are on average weaker physically than men, we live in a time where it is no longer relevant (in fact, I'm not sure it has been relevant for centuries) except in competitive sports.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

What I have noted is that the many of the top gaming countries in the world are among the countries with less sexism, specially in the western world. On the other hand, the countries that are terribly sexists and oppresive against women, not much of a gaming scene there. If anything I think that's a very positive correlation showing that countries with artistic freedom and freedom of speech are going in the right direction.

 

*is blinking rapidly*

Care to elaborate?

[Sannom]

*is blinking rapidly*

Care to elaborate?

Oppressive countries with censor filters for everything tend to not have a big gaming scene, and so that means that video games are good for the rights of women.

 

It's an equivalence thing, although I always thought the second thing was just one of the many results of the first.

 

My poor attempt at sarcasm being over, I will just say that Chaz is expressing some very true and simple things but tends to obfuscate them because if he was expressing them in their purest form, they would come off really badly.

 

I think he believes that Sarkeesian is a man-hating female supremacist who would like video games to either be completely banned or at the very least sanitized of any sort of content she (and of course her cohorts of feminist hard-liners) deems unacceptable. Hence why he's compared her to terrorist groups.

Her video series is like those terrorist trials, they put you in front of a camera, read the list of your crimes and then execute you. At no point in her videos is an effort to discuss the issue, there is no discussion.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Sannom

[Chaz]

No. She studies the influence of millenia-old tropes in video games and

sometimes express her wishes that the industry would outgrow them. She

doesn't make a case that video games are inherently misogynist and that

they should be banned and censored. She isn't against free speech. She

isn't like the NRA or whatever group you used in your analogy with the

'video games make our kids violent' debate

 

Now wait a minute, she said so herself in her kickstarter video, that video games reinforce and amplify misogyny. And it's true she never stated her position on censorship and freedom of speech, but most anti-pronography, anti-sex feminists are pro censorship. And if it serves as any indication she tends to disable comments and ratings on most of her videos, you can take this as if she is pro censorship or you may not.

 

I compared her to the NRA because both her and wayne lapierre accussed video games of very serious things, real world misogyny and gun violence are not a joke, however both have failed to provide evidence to support their case, that was my analogy. I also said that both person seem dishonest to me because they are attacking an easy target, like video games, to promote their agendas, in the case of the NRA is selling more guns, and in anita's case is promoting radical feminism.

 

Why do I brand her a radical? because there is a split in the feminist community, there are many sex-positive feminists that have no issue with pornography and argue that pornography does not seriously make an impact since the viewer can distinguish between pornography and reality, and they recognize that both sexes are objectified. now these are their views on porn, not video games, but the same arguments can be applied, that's why there are female gamers that write sarkeesian off as an extremist, but sadly they don't have much visibility.

 

I think he believes that Sarkeesian is a man-hating female supremacist

who would like video games to either be completely banned or at the very

least sanitized of any sort of content she (and of course her cohorts

of feminist hard-liners) deems unacceptable. Hence why he's compared her

to terrorist groups.

 

Many of her supporters hold the position that you either agree with her or you are hater or a troll, reminds of the video

but throughout the  thread I have made several points, I tried to present different kinds of arguments, quoted anita and other people, made analogies, pointed out at the obvious lack of evidence to support their case, at this point some of her supporters won't even answer and note that at no point I insulted anybody, a bit of snark? sure, but no real disrespect came from my part.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Chaz

[Sannom]

(1) Now wait a minute, she said so herself in her kickstarter video, that video games reinforce and amplify misogyny.

 

(2) And it's true she never stated her position on censorship and freedom of speech, but most anti-pronography, anti-sex feminists are pro censorship.

 

(3) And if it serves as any indication she tends to disable comments and ratings on most of her videos, you can take this as if she is pro censorship or you may not.

(1) Like every genre of popular culture out there. Sarkeesian just happens to talk about video games because that's a medium she knows better, being a gamer herself.

 

(2) And how exactly did you come to the conclusion that she was anti-sex? Is she something she said? Views exposed in other pieces? Because from that video, she doesn't strike me as a straw feminist.

 

(3) I've already answered that before : thanks to Sarkeesian's country of residence believing in free speech, Youtube comments on this kind of content always contains their fair share of insults, threats and horrible behavior, and soon the flame ways engulf everything else. There is no point in allowing them.

I compared her to the NRA because both her and wayne lapierre accussed video games of very serious things, real world misogyny and gun violence are not a joke, however both have failed to provide evidence to support their case, that was my analogy. I also said that both person seem dishonest to me because they are attacking an easy target, like video games, to promote their agendas, in the case of the NRA is selling more guns, and in anita's case is promoting radical feminism.

Again, Sarkeesian knows the hobby, she's played video games, she's enjoyed a lot of them and presumably still enjoys a few of them. That Lapierre person would probably expect a gun as a controller as soon as he hears that there are triggers on it!

 

Also, video games may be an easy target for a well-funded association backed by thousands of really well-armed Americans, but Sarkeesian is alone and is easy prey for just a bunch of internet trolls, stalkers and other monstrosities of the Internet. Come on, some people still believes that she hates video games, and that much is not true.

 

Why do I brand her a radical?

You say that, but you still didn't explain why you brand her a radical, you just explained to me what you believe a radical feminist is.

[Chaz]

(2) And how exactly did you come to the conclusion that she was

anti-sex? Is she something she said? Views exposed in other pieces?

Because from that video, she doesn't strike me as a straw feminist.

 

Based on her

she seems disgusted by the character flexibility and call her moves "pornographic", she doesn't like when bayonetta does sexy poses for the players, she doesn't like that the character gets naked, and she doesn't like that she sucks on a lollipop. According to her all of this is bad, she said so herself. I conclude that she is anti-sex, anti-pornography and she doesn't like characters to be overly sexualized, even when we are talking about an artistic medium, besides, the ESRB already accounts for nudity and sexual themes.

 

(3)I've already answered that before : thanks to Sarkeesian's country of

residence believing in free speech, Youtube comments on this kind of

content always contains their fair share of insults, threats

and horrible behavior, and soon the flame ways engulf everything else.

There is no point in allowing them.

 

She has every right to moderete her own channel, I only said that she strikes me as pro censorship, but I admit I have no evidence. Besides, if trolls get censored because they are offensive, I bet she would ban video games if she had that kind of power, because she considers them offensive amd harmful.

 

 

(1) Like every genre of popular culture out there. Sarkeesian just

happens to talk about video games because that's a medium she knows

better, being a gamer herself.

 

Again, Sarkeesian knows the hobby, she's played video games, she's enjoyed a lot of them and presumably still enjoys a few of them.

 

Look, I don't know her, and based on her Bayonetta review, it looks like she didn't even play the game and she was running her mouth, so I don't know how much of a gamer she is of ir she cares about games at all, but I can say this, she cares more about promoting feminism than video games.

 

And as I said before, my analogy was to point out THE LACK OF EVIDENCE. both Wayne and Anita could be gamers or neither of them could be gamers, you could be the most hardcore gamer in the world, you still need evidence to support your claims.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Chaz

[babaganoosh13]

I do agree that the subway ad with the peel-off stickers is a bit much. Especially if sexual harassment is a problem on the various forms of public transportation. That definitely doesn't help.

 

But the game... it's just a game. It clearly isn't for everyone. That's what ratings are for.

[Chaz]

I do agree that the subway ad with the peel-off stickers is a bit much. Especially if sexual harassment is a problem on the various forms of public transportation. That definitely doesn't help.

 

Ok, that's fair enough, and I am not to commentate on the state of affairs of japan, the video I posted was to show how sexually represive she is and I hope I made that perfectly clear. If a game is too sexualized for you, don't buy it. I don't find it to be an issue, but since I'm a PC gamer, no Bayonetta for me, besides I'm not that into spectacle fighters.

 

I see it as trying to force your preferences into everyone else, and I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to have every single game in the industry be made to your liking.

 

I know that every guy that disagrees with anita is seen as a troll or a hater, but what about the

? Are they misogynistic too? Are they Brainwashed by the Patriarchy? I'll let you decide...

 

 

 

but the answer is no.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

I do agree that the subway ad with the peel-off stickers is a bit much.

 

What's this?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

(2) And how exactly did you come to the conclusion that she was

anti-sex? Is she something she said? Views exposed in other pieces?

Because from that video, she doesn't strike me as a straw feminist.

 

Based on her

she seems disgusted by the character flexibility and call her moves "pornographic", she doesn't like when bayonetta does sexy poses for the players, she doesn't like that the character gets naked, and she doesn't like that she sucks on a lollipop. According to her all of this is bad, she said so herself. I conclude that she is anti-sex, anti-pornography and she doesn't like characters to be overly sexualized, even when we are talking about an artistic medium, besides, the ESRB already accounts for nudity and sexual themes.

 

 

I hope you do realize that you can be both pro-sex and anti-pornography at the same time.

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

 

 

 

Although, to be honest, a lot of the "this {thing} in new media has negative effect" studies have been horribly skewed in how they collect and/or interpret data (whether the {thing} is violence, sex, language, gender portrayals).

 

Agreed.

 

Part of the issue of social science is that it's a "science" in that it tries to employ scientific method (i.e. empiricism) but with serious handicaps in terms of trying to set up experiments without bias influencing it.  Natural science can have bias too, obviously, but gravity typically doesn't decide to false report due to social pressure

 

 

 

That's what IATs are for.

 

 

Have Implicit Association Tests been used in a well controlled study on media consumption and stereotypes? Last time I checked this is not what IATs were being used for.

 

 

 

 

(2) And how exactly did you come to the conclusion that she was

anti-sex? Is she something she said? Views exposed in other pieces?

Because from that video, she doesn't strike me as a straw feminist.

 

Based on her

she seems disgusted by the character flexibility and call her moves "pornographic", she doesn't like when bayonetta does sexy poses for the players, she doesn't like that the character gets naked, and she doesn't like that she sucks on a lollipop. According to her all of this is bad, she said so herself. I conclude that she is anti-sex, anti-pornography and she doesn't like characters to be overly sexualized, even when we are talking about an artistic medium, besides, the ESRB already accounts for nudity and sexual themes.

 

 

 

I hope you do realize that you can be both pro-sex and anti-pornography at the same time.

 

 

No, that's not true, it's equivocation, people are talking about being pro-sexuality which includes pornography, where she is talking about her selfish desires while being entirely dishonest about pornography, clearly she is writing to an audience that hasn't seen pornography in their lives. You can't be pro-sexuality apart from when it's not specifically designed for you, which will be the majority of it.

[Chaz]

No, that's not true, it's equivocation, people are talking about being

pro-sexuality which includes pornography, where she is talking about her

selfish desires while being entirely dishonest about pornography,

clearly she is writing to an audience that hasn't seen pornography in

their lives. You can't be pro-sexuality apart from when it's not

specifically designed for you, which will be the majority of it.

 

Right, when i say anti-sex I'm saying that she is against sexuality, not that she doesn't want to have sex herself and hopes to remain a virgin

 

You can't be pro-sexuality apart from when it's not specifically designed for you, which will be the majority of it.

 

That's like when the religious say "we are in favor of sex...    that is only in the missionary position for the sole purpouse of procreation, see? we are pro-sex" Yeah, right buddy. What else you got?

Edited March 21, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

She doesn't make a case that video games are inherently misogynist and that they should be banned and censored

 

To echo this, she does straight up state in her video: "Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all games that use the damsel in distress as a plot device are automatically sexist or have no value."

 

She also states that she has been a fan of the Mario and Zelda franchises for most of her life.

[Chaz]

To echo this, she does straight up state in her video: "Just to be

clear, I'm not saying that all games that use the damsel in distress as a

plot device are automatically sexist or have no value."

 

She also states that she has been a fan of the Mario and Zelda franchises for most of her life.

 

If you payed any attention to what I've been writting you would have seen that she actually did make that case* but you haven't.

 

 

* she never said they were inherently misogynist, she said that they reinforce and amplify misogyny, which is a serious accusation

Edited March 21, 2013 by Chaz