Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[NOK222]

I do so love it when everyone brings their little activ-ism along to a game discussion.

 

Makes for good kindling.

After going into SRS and Tumblr, I know where I stand now. That being said, I still find boob armor silly.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I do so love it when everyone brings their little activ-ism along to a game discussion.

 

Makes for good kindling.

 

 

 

Enjoy.

Mmmmm, I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

[Zoraptor]

And don't think that you can actually count it as censorship as he only ask people not to do something instead of trying to get governing bodies not to publish something.

I suspect a lot of those who agree wholeheartedly with Walker/ RPS on this issue would list, say, a religious group objecting to EA/ Bioware wrt homosexuality as being attempted censorship though, even when they use the same tactics.

 

I stopped reading RPS a while ago, the endless articles preaching of sexism in the industry were not particularly bothersome as that's nothing to do with me, I just happen to think that their standards have plummeted rather severely lately. That Nathan Greyson chap especially is quite clearly trying to network a job in the industry rather than undertaking unbiased criticism, the mans interviews fairly much function as a developer bidet, except when he's trying to wedge more sensationalist claims of sexism into an unrelated topic.

The thing which really got me, apart from their lack of evangelism and inconsistency on other non directly gaming topics, was their historical bee-in-bonnet obsession with CDPR's sexism. Yeah, the booby cards were ridiculous, pretty much everyone (probably including CDPR, now) would agree to that. Turning much of the initial discussion of TWitcher2 and Cyberpunk into a treatise on sexism though, and ignoring any context? That Alec Meer saw a woman being tortured in a medieval world being included to lead to, er, titillation says more about him than about CDPR. And the complaints about the Cyberpunk trailer were just cringe making and the worst sort of issue nannying.

[Elerond]

 

And don't think that you can actually count it as censorship as he only ask people not to do something instead of trying to get governing bodies not to publish something.

I suspect a lot of those who agree wholeheartedly with Walker/ RPS on this issue would list, say, a religious group objecting to EA/ Bioware wrt homosexuality as being attempted censorship though, even when they use the same tactics.

 

 

Religious groups that only object EA/Bioware's policy by saying that they should not represent homosexuality in their games are not trying to censorship them, but those religious groups that demand sale bans for games that represent homosexuality (or sex/sexism/racism/etc.) are actually demanding censorship. Demanding EA not to publish such games is somewhere on the lines is it demand for censorship or expression of ones mind.

[Zoraptor]

I think you're ignoring the issue of self censorship, where the pressure of an issue is sufficient to ensure censorship without there being any formal process involved. Something like depicting Mohammed is perfectly legal in most western countries but happens very rarely even when it would be contextually fine- in Crusader Kings 2 you can go back to see Mohammed's portrait and it is the only one in the whole game that is obscured, the issue of South Park/ Comedy Central censoring similarly against the wishes of the people making the program etc. There doesn't have to be or be an attempt to create legislation or other regulation to impose censorship if you can make people impose it- voluntarily or involuntarily- on themselves.

[AwesomeOcelot]

Censorship is about control, people often seem to think only a state can censor, this is not true. It's also the case that a developer can be censored by a publisher, or a content partner can be censored by a channel, which is what happened with Machinima.

[Fighter]

A small minority can create enough noisy outrage and public shaming tactics to make something a taboo people are afraid to deal with. Call someone a misogynist enough times for putting cleavage into their game and eventually they will just not want to deal with the drama. To me that's a kind of censorship.

[Elerond]

I think you're ignoring the issue of self censorship, where the pressure of an issue is sufficient to ensure censorship without there being any formal process involved. Something like depicting Mohammed is perfectly legal in most western countries but happens very rarely even when it would be contextually fine- in Crusader Kings 2 you can go back to see Mohammed's portrait and it is the only one in the whole game that is obscured, the issue of South Park/ Comedy Central censoring similarly against the wishes of the people making the program etc. There doesn't have to be or be an attempt to create legislation or other regulation to impose censorship if you can make people impose it- voluntarily or involuntarily- on themselves.

 

That is why I said that "Demanding EA not to publish such games is somewhere on the lines is it demand for censorship or expression of ones mind.", because that can lead self-censorship, but also demanding people not demand content what they want can lead people to self-censor themselves from expressing what they would want, as that is seen as act of censoring. So it is very hard to determine where line should be drawn, when demanding content what you like to see causes artits/writers/developers/other people/publishers/etc. to self-censor themselves and it is question what is asked through history.

[alanschu]

I think you're ignoring the issue of self censorship, where the pressure of an issue is sufficient to ensure censorship without there being any formal process involved.

 

I think the reaction that Anita received to her video is another attempt to do something like this, and is also what Walker touches on when he feels that a bulk of the criticism towards his views is more about an attempt to intimidate him to stop him from discussing it further.  You can argue that he's a hypocrite by not allowing anyone to use his blog as a stage for their remarks, but I would disagree with that notion as he has still openly encouraged people to point out their faults, and has even retweeted blogs linked to him that call him out.  So I don't know if I would equate this to homosexual groups or fundamentalist Muslims from trying to intimidate people to not talking.

 

Though if you're going to classify censorship as any decision to not do something, the word starts to become pretty all encompassing.

 

 

Interesting crossroads though, if you feel strongly about something and feel that allowing people to obfuscate the issue through intimidation tactics.  Is it productive to allow the KKK to have a voice at a black minority rally in the 1960s?

[NOK222]

 

 

I think you're ignoring the issue of self censorship, where the pressure of an issue is sufficient to ensure censorship without there being any formal process involved.

 

Interesting crossroads though, if you feel strongly about something and feel that allowing people to obfuscate the issue through intimidation tactics.  Is it productive to allow the KKK to have a voice at a black minority rally in the 1960s?

 

 

How women are "portrayed" in video games is not the ****ing million man march

[Zoraptor]

 

I think you're ignoring the issue of self censorship, where the pressure of an issue is sufficient to ensure censorship without there being any formal process involved.

 

I think the reaction that Anita received to her video is another attempt to do something like this

I'd agree with that, certainly. I wouldn't have found her project worth funding personally, but trying to bully her out of it was utterly disgraceful let alone the manner in which some tried to do it, and certainly an attempt at censorship and discouragement of others.

 

On RPS though, I'm about as liberal as they come and if they're managing to alienate me on something like this they must be doing something very very wrong indeed. I think Mr Walker needs to take a look at himself and his website rather more as to why the effect has been so divisive.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Zoraptor

[NOK222]

and certainly an attempt at censorship and discouragement of others.

oh well lookee what happened recently.

[babaganoosh13]

^^^^^^

 

What do you expect? The poster said MCA was giving a speech. Instead, it turned out to be a typo and it was some MRA person instead. I'm surprised it wasn't like Vancouver after they lose another Cup final.

[NOK222]

What do you expect?

Tumblr feminists to not be hypocritical and actually go fight oppression in places where they're needed? Like the middle east?

[alanschu]

 

On RPS though, I'm about as liberal as they come and if they're managing to alienate me on something like this they must be doing something very very wrong indeed. I think Mr Walker needs to take a look at himself and his website rather more as to why the effect has been so divisive.

 

I have divided feelings.

 

I get the impression John felt a need to soapbox himself because he was finding the issue frustrating.  I'm not really a fan of comments at the best of times (I read them to fulfill my desires to laugh at people and to be judgmental!), and on the one hand if you know that there's an angry mob waiting outside of your talk, is it productive to actually let them in?

 

This reminds me a bit about how people were upset about EA having an "invite only" seminar about approaching LGBT representation in games, which people jumped on (IMO more because it's cool to hate on EA than about the subject matter, but I digress), when to me it seems like allowing anyone to come in and talk is going to lead to a greater chance that some Westboro fundies come in and completely derail the entire conversation, effectively undermining the entire initiative.

[BruceVC]

On RPS though, I'm about as liberal as they come and if they're managing to alienate me on something like this they must be doing something very very wrong indeed. I think Mr Walker needs to take a look at himself and his website rather more as to why the effect has been so divisive.

 

 

Don't mean to offend you Zor but maybe you should look past your minor issues with RPS and see that John Walker is making an important stand about a relevant issue. There aren't many prominent gaming websites who are prepared to put themselves in the headlights around the issue of sexism. So maybe he can be a little inconsistent, but if you say you are a liberal then RPS should be a place where you can arguably find other like minded people who also feel strongly about this topic, like me.

 

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water around RPS

[Zoraptor]

I mainly just find their method of arguing objectionable. If you're going to characterise everyone who disagrees with you as- essentially- not being in good faith disagreement, which is what Walker did, then you have crossed the line from simply arguing, or putting forward a position, to pontificating, lecturing and demonising your opponents. "Shut up you sexist trolling ignoramuses" is not materially better than "shut up you white knighting impression seeking mangina", which is basically what he accuses those who disagree with him of saying. That is an exceptionally bad approach to take if you're actually trying to convince people of something as opposed to just shouting at people from the top of a soapbox.

 

Frankly though I think that RPS have done an exceptionally good job at trivialising the issue. The wage gaps in gaming issue is worthy of discussion as people should, fundamentally, get equal pay for the same job no matter their sex/ colour/ creed/ whatever. But something like going off the deep end at TWitcher 2's prologue boobies is nothing but trivialisation, if Aryan is alive he gets tortured instead and it is, contextually, appropriate anyway. It's like complaining that having rapine in Game of Thrones is sexist, it isn't, it happened historically and still happens in the real world, burying that under a politically correct blanket is not something that should happen because some middle class bleeding hearts from Chipping Norton get upset at it, if anything it illuminates the mistreatment of women.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its beyond sad that this topic, whose relevance is debatable (although certainly not completely irrelevant) takes precedence over the issue of violence in games. The only people who bother with it is the mass media when in search of poor explanations of some recent scandal or shooting.

 

I don't recall a single game publication raising the issue. That would have been brave and necessary. And I'm not talking about the impact on real world violence - that's a very flimsy connection at best, I'm talking about simple prevalence of violence in so many genres. Today its practically impossible to find an AAA game without cringe worthy scenes.

All the graphical and technological achievements of games have been mostly squandered on more torn limbs and gory kills.

 

Its only when the fact that this isn't seen as a problem becomes obvious that the true horror of it all begins to sink in. Here we are, arguing the acceptability of bikinimail while ignoring the decapitated head flying in our direction.

 

Yeah its all basically make believe- but is there a real necessity to see every jugular explode, eyeballs pop out etc.? What kind of person draws satisfaction from making that type of game? Or playing it? And what kind of person fails to notice that but notices the sexism in games - which if existent, surely isn't in his face most of the time, like violence is?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

I mainly just find their method of arguing objectionable. If you're going to characterise everyone who disagrees with you as- essentially- not being in good faith disagreement, which is what Walker did, then you have crossed the line from simply arguing, or putting forward a position, to pontificating, lecturing and demonising your opponents. "Shut up you sexist trolling ignoramuses" is not materially better than "shut up you white knighting impression seeking mangina", which is basically what he accuses those who disagree with him of saying. That is an exceptionally bad approach to take if you're actually trying to convince people of something as opposed to just shouting at people from the top of a soapbox.

 

Frankly though I think that RPS have done an exceptionally good job at trivialising the issue. The wage gaps in gaming issue is worthy of discussion as people should, fundamentally, get equal pay for the same job no matter their sex/ colour/ creed/ whatever. But something like going off the deep end at TWitcher 2's prologue boobies is nothing but trivialisation, if Aryan is alive he gets tortured instead and it is, contextually, appropriate anyway. It's like complaining that having rapine in Game of Thrones is sexist, it isn't, it happened historically and still happens in the real world, burying that under a politically correct blanket is not something that should happen because some middle class bleeding hearts from Chipping Norton get upset at it, if anything it illuminates the mistreatment of women.

 

 

Good points raised, I wasn't aware of the Witcher 2 complaints he had . I loved that game so I must look into it

[Malcador]

 

 

and certainly an attempt at censorship and discouragement of others.

oh well lookee what happened recently.

 

 

Meh, a bunch of dumbasses from Toronto acting up.

[Drowsy Emperor]

[babaganoosh13]

EDIT: Snipped. Looked worse when I read it than what was in my head. Huge flame bait possibility. More so than my usual sarcasm.

Edited April 9, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[Malcador]

Think other stuff too, like suicides, boys and young men's performance in schools or crime, from what I've read over time about that stuff. Might be some worth to it, as usual all you ever hear are the wackos though.

[babaganoosh13]

There's certainly nothing wrong with promoting organizations such as Big Brothers/Big Sisters and the United Way and the work they do in that area. Usually wacko's are asked to leave if they start giving organizations a bad name. Problems can arise when you embrace the wacko.

[Tagaziel]

I've been wondering: did Sarkeesian post anything on Bioshock Infinite? I'm curious as to what her take on the game would be, given how Elizabeth is a fantastic female lead.