New Star Wars RPG

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't mind BioWare (loved ME3).

 

But I just can't stand Obsidian being called "lazy" for something that's actually quite a feat like KOTOR2.

[Dream]

Yea we've all heard how it's the publisher's fault why X Obsidian game has Y issues, but there's only so many times you can blame the publisher.

[Hurlshort]

Obsidian has a history of bug issues, but they've been vocal about their intent to change that.  Dungeon Siege 3 showed that they can release a clean game.

 

Regardless, I'd rather deal with a few bugs and play their games than some of the stable AAA titles that are popular today.

[Dream]

Obsidian has a history of bug issues, but they've been vocal about their intent to change that.  Dungeon Siege 3 showed that they can release a clean game.

 

Regardless, I'd rather deal with a few bugs and play their games than some of the stable AAA titles that are popular today.

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game. 

[C2B]

Yea we've all heard how it's the publisher's fault why X Obsidian game has Y issues, but there's only so many times you can blame the publisher.

 

You can always blame the publishers if its appropriate. And if you actually would inform yourself about the specific development you would see where the problem lied. Internal or External.

 

In KOTOR 2's case it was overambition for what was essentialy only a short contract. Yet, its still mostly on the publisher because of how he has given them more time and then cut that time surprisingly. Leaving Obsidian to wrap up very quickly.

 

To make a short list of Obsidian's games and where the blame (mostly) lies (IMO), though in all cases its more or less both)

 

- KOTOR 2 (Publisher)

- NWN 2 (Obsidian)

- Alpha Protocol (Obsidian) (Special case, as SEGA completly ****ed up the release and patch support)

 

F:NV, while it's quite buggy there is really no *blame*. It was made under a tight window (18 month) with a known buggy engine. Publisher supported well. (Of course, the issues are still serious)

 

DSIII wasn't buggy at all. Actually one of the least buggy crpgs I've ever played.

 

 

Obsidian does take a lot of blame, but they stand to it. (It's the fans that complain). And constantly tries to improve themselves. They are not more buggy than Bethesda (arguable less) and if they continue from DSIII they actually could stand as the more stable rpg dev in the industry.

Edited February 11, 2013 by C2B

[C2B]

 

Obsidian has a history of bug issues, but they've been vocal about their intent to change that.  Dungeon Siege 3 showed that they can release a clean game.

 

Regardless, I'd rather deal with a few bugs and play their games than some of the stable AAA titles that are popular today.

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game. 

 

?

 

Then you haven't seen many PC Ports. At all. The only main issue with it was the keybinding, and that was patched in. It wasn't buggy either.

 

 

To name: Every (older) Capcom and Konami port. Dark Souls.

Edited February 11, 2013 by C2B

[Sannom]

 

I thought Avellone hated Star Wars? Hopefully this will be another twist on it like KOTOR 2.

Standard over-simplification. By the same token, Avellone hates D&D because he created Planescape : Torment. He was just bugged by some aspects of the setting and tried to deconstruct them. I doubt he would be so heavy-handed on the 'this is stupid' in another game.

 

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game.

You're a sissy. And the patch made it better. Edited February 11, 2013 by Sannom

[Dream]

?

 

Then you haven't seen many PC Ports. At all. The only main issue with it was the keybinding, and that was patched in. It wasn't buggy either.

They took a genre that started on the PC and has had the same control scheme for 15 years and made it unplayable without a controller. I can get requiring a controller for the PC version of Devil May Cry or something, but for a point and click aRPG? That's about as lazy a port job as you can get.

 

From a PC perspective DS3 was Obsidian's worst offering yet.

 

 

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game.

You're a sissy. And the patch made it better.

 

 

The patch was a joke and did nothing to fix the underlying issue of the control scheme being awful; it just let you rebind the awfulness to different buttons. Edited February 11, 2013 by Dream

[C2B]

 

?

 

Then you haven't seen many PC Ports. At all. The only main issue with it was the keybinding, and that was patched in. It wasn't buggy either.

They took a genre that started on the PC and has had the same control scheme for 15 years and made it unplayable without a controller. I can get requiring a controller for the PC version of Devil May Cry or something, but for a point and click aRPG? That's about as lazy a port job as you can get.

 

The gameplay wasn't the same as the previous games though?

 

And no, that still doesn't make it the laziest port ever. Not by a long shot.

 

Edit: It was geared towards controllers of course, yes. Especially on the budget they had better PC controls (Which needed a lot more changes like UI and even gameplay) was more or less out of hand.

Edited February 11, 2013 by C2B

[Dream]

The gameplay wasn't the same as the previous games though?

 

And no, that still doesn't make it the laziest port ever. Not by a long shot.

The point and click aRPG genre hasn't change since Diablo; how hard was it to just rip the control scheme from that game(or one of it's dozen or so clones).

 

DS3 was the most direct example of a straight console to PC port I've ever seen; they did the absolute bare minimum to make it playable on the PC and called it a day. Hell, it makes Borderlands' awful menu system look like it was lovingly handcrafted for the PC.

[pmp10]

 

?

 

Then you haven't seen many PC Ports. At all. The only main issue with it was the keybinding, and that was patched in. It wasn't buggy either.

They took a genre that started on the PC and has had the same control scheme for 15 years and made it unplayable without a controller. I can get requiring a controller for the PC version of Devil May Cry or something, but for a point and click aRPG? That's about as lazy a port job as you can get.

 

From a PC perspective DS3 was Obsidian's worst offering yet.

> 

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game.

You're a sissy. And the patch made it better.

The patch was a joke and did nothing to fix the underlying issue of the control scheme being awful; it just let you rebind the awfulness to different buttons.

 

Actually for a PC the control scheme was pretty good it's just the game was no longer 'point and click' or a Diablo clone which apparently shocked and appalled people to the point of denial.

BTW: DMC plays better on a keyboard.

[Rostere]

 

Obsidian has a history of bug issues, but they've been vocal about their intent to change that.  Dungeon Siege 3 showed that they can release a clean game.

 

Regardless, I'd rather deal with a few bugs and play their games than some of the stable AAA titles that are popular today.

Except DS3 was "clean" at the expense of the PC release which was one of the worst port jobs I've ever seen in a game. 

Wat

[C2B]

 

The gameplay wasn't the same as the previous games though?

 

And no, that still doesn't make it the laziest port ever. Not by a long shot.

The point and click aRPG genre hasn't change since Diablo; how hard was it to just rip the control scheme from that game(or one of it's dozen or so clones).

 

DS3 was the most direct example of a straight console to PC port I've ever seen; they did the absolute bare minimum to make it playable on the PC and called it a day. Hell, it makes Borderlands' awful menu system look like it was lovingly handcrafted for the PC.

 

Still no. There are plenty of *more direct* examples. What about ports that don't have resolution options or only feature button descriptions ingame. There are even ports that didn't even have all the button bindings added to the pc version making certain actions impossible. Yes, this happened.

 

Different Gameplay. DSIII compared to its predecssors is more similiar to Dark Alliance/Gauntlet than Diablo. A straight port of the point & click control system wouldn't have worked much better.

 

Again, would have needed substantial changes in UI and Gameplay. I do think it could have been better handled still.

Edited February 11, 2013 by C2B

[Hurlshort]

Dream just needs to go get a controller.  The game played great on my PC with my Xbox 360 controller.  

 

Also DS2 came out in 2005, so expecting DS3 to play the same was not a very realist expectation.  Different developer and publisher, different scale and scope, really it was Dungeon Siege in name of the king only!

 

 

Thank goodness for that too, DS1 and 2 were lame.

[Volourn]

"Lucasarts told them they would have more time but didn't put it in
writing so there was nothing to do when they backed out of that
agreement."

 

Not quite accurate. Originally, the game was supposed to be out at Christmas.. then it wa switched to early the next eyar then it was changed abck to Christmas. So, all alomg, Obsidian had to realize that Christmas was the target date. I do agree that all that date switching can hurt but still as the dev it's Obsidian's job to be prepared - espciially since Christmas was the original target date.

 

"hey weren't dissatisfied. They just wanted an x-mas rush. Nothing more, nothing less."

 

Yes, they were. Why do you think there was no KOTOR3 depsite the fact that Obsidian has been voically desperate to do one and still are so ar enow trying to beg Disney for it?  It wa svery clear that LA was disspoainted with KOTOR2. That's just fact.

 

That isn't mean so don't shoot me. I found KOTOR2 fine and wouldn't have minded an Obsidian KOTOR3. I find both KOTORS overrated bu decent games. But, I'm not LA and LA was dissapointed in KOTOR2. This is fact.

[Tigranes]

I played it just fine on KB+M and didn't see what the deal was, but I think I have higher tolerance. I mean, I was fine with Gothic...

 

I don't know about this one. I can understand how a company like Obsidian needs to seek major publishers, well funded projects, solid IPs, etc., but in this case will a Disney Star Wars game contract really provide that kind of stability? I really want them to use their talents on a new IP, or at least, a different IP, not another Star Wars game.

[Dream]

Actually for a PC the control scheme was pretty good it's just the game was no longer 'point and click' or a Diablo clone which apparently shocked and appalled people to the point of denial.

So the control scheme was different because the game was no longer point and click except the only thing that made it no longer point and click was the different control scheme. Got it. DS3 was the definition of a Diablo clone; changing the control scheme didn't suddenly turn it into a brand new genre.

 

What you (and everyone else who's saying 'just use a controller') are basically saying is that a port of a game in a genre that is predominantly PC based that's impossible to play without a controller because the developer didn't bother to implement a proper m/kb control scheme is just fine. I suppose that's a reasonable attitude to have, but to me that screams of lazy development just as much as a buggy as **** release does.

 

We'll see how Obsidian does with P:E once it no longer has the "blame the publisher" crutch to explain away all the **** that's wrong with its games.

[pmp10]

 

Actually for a PC the control scheme was pretty good it's just the game was no longer 'point and click' or a Diablo clone which apparently shocked and appalled people to the point of denial.

So the control scheme was different because the game was no longer point and click except the only thing that made it no longer point and click was the different control scheme. Got it. DS3 was the definition of a Diablo clone; changing the control scheme didn't suddenly turn it into a brand new genre.

 

What you (and everyone else who's saying 'just use a controller') are basically saying is that a port of a game in a genre that is predominantly PC based that's impossible to play without a controller because the developer didn't bother to implement a proper m/kb control scheme is just fine. I suppose that's a reasonable attitude to have, but to me that screams of lazy development just as much as a buggy as **** release does.

 

We'll see how Obsidian does with P:E once it no longer has the "blame the publisher" crutch to explain away all the **** that's wrong with its games.

So if the DS3 and Diablo are the same  tell me - how much active dodging you did in Diablo?

Because I seem to recall doing it a lot in the former.

The latter was all about drinking potions and thank god DS3 didn't fall into that trap.

And no controller isn't necessary - M&K controls are perfectly serviceable for an isometric action game.

Edited February 11, 2013 by pmp10

[Dream]

So if the DS3 and Diablo are the same  tell me - how much active dodging you did in Diablo?

Because I seem to recall doing it a lot in the former.

The latter was all about drinking potions and thank god DS3 didn't fall into that trap.

All the Diablo games had a teleport skill; the dodge mechanic just made it baseline and gave it to every class.

[Tigranes]

Oh, I agree 100% that it's no excuse and any game on PC should have good PC controls, end of. I just didn't see what was so bad about DS3's controls. Unlike other features, it's harder to imagine from another's perspective, though in this case there were enough people pissed with it that it's at least partly legitimate. (Although the dodge = teleport is... uhhhh.)

 

I guess it stands to reason that in my eyes the "**** that's wrong with" Obsidian games were never that big a deal. K2's lack of an ending was probably the worst, but I lived through a lot worse bugs in all sorts of games (e.g. Morrowind), equally flailing camera (e.g. uh.... most 3D games), etc. I mean, if they bothered me so much I wouldn't buy their games all on Day 1. It would be nice if they were gone, but such problems have been part of most RPGs for years, and if I chuck out FNV for its bugs, I'd hardly get any better stabliity on FO3.

 

I guess the most important things about P:E will be: now Obsidian has proven they can make a bugfree game, can they do it with a game that is ambitious and in Obsidian's core style (as opposed to DS3 which was unusually conservative)?

[Zoraptor]

Not quite accurate. Originally, the game was supposed to be out at Christmas.. then it wa switched to early the next eyar then it was changed abck to Christmas. So, all alomg, Obsidian had to realize that Christmas was the target date. I do agree that all that date switching can hurt but still as the dev it's Obsidian's job to be prepared - espciially since Christmas was the original target date.

The change in date was official enough that the E3 LA press release mentioned February rather than November. If you've got the extra time you have to plan to use it or there's no point to having it at all, you might as well decline and shoot for the November date in the first place.

[C2B]

(as opposed to DS3 which was unusually conservative)?

 

DSIII was in a big part conservative because it had a for a recent AAA production a really small budget. I've been sayin' it for a while, but if you pay attention when you're playing you really notice all the corners they saved money on.

[Sannom]

They took a genre that started on the PC and has had the same control scheme for 15 years and made it unplayable without a controller. I can get requiring a controller for the PC version of Devil May Cry or something, but for a point and click aRPG? That's about as lazy a port job as you can get.

You do realize that Devil May Cry is a game that came out often in discussion from one of the devs to talk about DS3, right? It wasn't a hack & slash anymore, it was an action game, comparable to the Dark Alliance games. So it used an direct-control scheme instead of a point & click system.

 

The point and click aRPG genre hasn't change since Diablo; how hard was it to just rip the control scheme from that game(or one of it's dozen or so clones).

DS3 wasn't a point & click aRPG, that's what you're not getting.

 

"Lucasarts told them they would have more time but didn't put it in

writing so there was nothing to do when they backed out of that

agreement."

 

Not quite accurate. Originally, the game was supposed to be out at Christmas.. then it wa switched to early the next eyar then it was changed abck to Christmas. So, all alomg, Obsidian had to realize that Christmas was the target date. I do agree that all that date switching can hurt but still as the dev it's Obsidian's job to be prepared - espciially since Christmas was the original target date.

Actually, very accurate, that's how Feargus described it recently in an interview : they had a release date set for December, early versions of the games made their interlocutors at Lucas Arts very enthusiastic so they told Obsidian to expand and gave them six more months, but 'last minute' Lucas Arts changed plans and came back to the original date and Obsidian had to cut short on the additional content.

 

 

So the control scheme was different because the game was no longer point and click except the only thing that made it no longer point and click was the different control scheme. Got it.

No, our point is that DS3 wasn't a Diablo clone, so why are you saying that they should have gone with the Diablo control scheme? It couldn't have worked!

[C2B]

 

Actually for a PC the control scheme was pretty good it's just the game was no longer 'point and click' or a Diablo clone which apparently shocked and appalled people to the point of denial.

So the control scheme was different because the game was no longer point and click except the only thing that made it no longer point and click was the different control scheme. Got it. DS3 was the definition of a Diablo clone; changing the control scheme didn't suddenly turn it into a brand new genre.

 

No it wasn't the definition of a diablo clone. It was the definition of a gauntlet/Dark Alliance/Champions clone. It's not 1:1 gameplay, because its gameplay made for consoles. For the hunderth time, a lot of more things would have needed to be changed, including UI and Gameplay (Especially how ability selection works) to adapt fully diablo style controls without it going wrong.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I get being unhappy with DS3's PC console scheme, or gameplay, cut corners and whatever. What I don't get is how can one not notice the reliance on the active dodge/block mechanics. It's your essential and primary defense mechanic, and it's what most starkly differentiates the game from a classic Diablo clone. I really wish I could use the psyduck emoticon from Something Awful. Any chance that can be implemented, mods?