Poll: Death animations vs. more attack animations

[Hormalakh]

Hello. How are you? That's good/not good depending on how you are. Josh Sawyer answered a few questions on the latest update and the topic of possible death animations was brought up. Some people were ecstatic (actually just me) and some people didn't like it one bit (not me).

 

Anyway, obviously I come with a bias, but I was still interested in knowing what you guys thought. The question is this: If you have enough resources to choose one, would you spend them on increasing your attack animations above the basic attack (one attack animation per weapon) or would you spend it on implementing (EDIT: varied) death animations?

 

A few things: Death animations show at the end of a fight. Attack animations show during the fight. I am considering death animations for both the player and enemies.

 

Here are some examples of death animations:

 

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Here is where I make my arguments:

 

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Pros:

1- Death animations often times make games memorable. Attack animations do not. Because of how often you see the same sword strike over and over again, the attack animatiosn lose value fairly quickly. Death animations do not. 

2- Death animations make accepting death easier. It becomes sort of a challenge to see how many different ways you can kill or be killed.

3- Death animations often offer game content that can help tell the story better. They can be humorous, gory, etc. Oftentimes, they can convey the idea of how dangerous of a world PE is or isn't.

4- They're funnnnnnnnn!

 

Cons:

1- They will likely take a little more time than multiple weapon animations. Yes, I realize that it no longer becomes a 1:1 trade-off in this scenario. The solution is to have limited death animations.

2- Not all monsters would have death animations unless there is some sort of program which can systemize death animations. Each would likely have to be done by hand and this takes time.

 

 

That's all I could come up with. Once again, obviously I'm biased. Here is what some other people have said in defense of multiple attack animations instead of death animations.

 

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While I agree that monster variety is paramount, I'm not so sure about special death animations on the expense of basic attack animations:

 

"We're starting out with one basic attack for each weapon type with variants as a lower priority."

 

ToEE and NWN2 had quite a variety of attack animations per combat style. NWN2, for instance, has up to 4 per style. And they even vary depending on the character's gender.

 

BG is much less varied when it comes to attack animations, but even in BG there are generally at least 2 attack animations per style.

 

Watching the same one and only attack animation over and over again, especially in quick succession? That would get really boring real quick.

 

 

 

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I completely agree Valorian, there's a reason why Batman and Uncharted were such great games. It was partially because they had a ton of variety in the animations, especially Batman. If the games very slow paced and combat is much less an emphasis you can get away with only one basic attack, but if you're going to be using the same attack several times per fight, and the average fight is like 7 seconds things get boring quick. That's why I encouraged Josh to consider a method to counter attack, parry, dodge then attack, and attack from a block when appropriate in the new system to avoid tediousness animations. I know it's not an action game, but they would be tactical choices of how to play. I fear though we may have 8 classes, they'll all feel like the same but with different textures on them and that's def not fun. I want my little guy to have to use more momentum and maybe have to take a few extra steps to get his spear thrusts in compared to my beefcake muscle head guy. Or if I have a big fella he would have a much bigger follow through because the momentum would build up under his force. I would def not have a single attack for everyone unless it was a game for young kids. I'd even have the weapons  like spears flex a lil bit as I move.

 

 

 

I diasgree with them.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Osvir]

... both? :D

EDIT: Okok seriously though... I want to choose one, but then when I think about I want to choose the other. So my vote is ambivalent buuuuuut........... I mean more death animations are fun. I'll have to research into this...

Are you suggesting death animations for the player character (because I'd like that) or for the mobs we are facing?

Does a Gibberling kill the player character differently than what a Giant does? Well "duh" but I am just curious if that's what you are going for. But then it comes back to the bipolar self-counter-argument which is "But wouldn't it be cool to take down a Giant in some cool way?"..

Oh I don't know Hormalakh, I'll be back to vote later

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Only one, huh? Then death animations. You have to have some kind of death animation anyway, don't you? Killed critters won't just blink out of existence, I hope.

 

I would hope there are a few more attack animations as well, especially if there are special attack feats to match them so they'll communicate some information apart from just looking cool. A little guy just going <poke> repeatedly isn't all that exciting to look at...

[Hormalakh]

  On 1/18/2013 at 4:59 PM, Osvir said:

Are you suggesting death animations for the player character (because I'd like that) or for the mobs we are facing?

 

Does a Gibberling kill the player character differently than what a Giant does? Well "duh" but I am just curious if that's what you are going for. But then it comes back to the bipolar self-counter-argument which is "But wouldn't it be cool to take down a Giant in some cool way?"..

Death animations for both player and enemies. Sorry for the confusion.

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:02 PM, PrimeJunta said:

Only one, huh? Then death animations. You have to have some kind of death animation anyway, don't you? Killed critters won't just blink out of existence, I hope.

As for death animations, I'm talking about varied death animations above just "your player falls prone." The death animations in BG/BG2 were not very varied.

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:02 PM, PrimeJunta said:

I would hope there are a few more attack animations as well, especially if there are special attack feats to match them so they'll communicate some information apart from just looking cool. A little guy just going <poke> repeatedly isn't all that exciting to look at...

gotta pick one Edited January 18, 2013 by Hormalakh

[PrimeJunta]

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:08 PM, Hormalakh said:

Death animatiosn for both player and enemies. Sorry for the confusion. As for death animations, I'm talking about varied death animations above just "your player falls prone." The death animations in BG/BG2 were not very varied.

No, no they weren't. And yeah, I loved FO's crazy death animations. Giblets FTW.

 

I have to say I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or the other; with animations more is better but I won't complain even if there's only one attack animation and only basic falling-over, if it means we get more and different critters and weapons. But if there's animation budget left over after that, then yeah, why not prioritize death animations. They're cool. Also a flexible feature; if you decide to make a new animation for each attack type (strong, fast, defensive etc.), you're pretty much committed to making all of 'em, whereas death animations are kind of like icing on the cake, every one a nice extra bonus.

 

That said, the 4M stretch goal was "make everything better..."

[Osvir]

 

I thought it was a vote between "Player Death"- and "Enemy Death"-Animations~

Attacking Animations vs Death Animations..... you're gonna have to have good attacking animations to get good death animations.... which makes this into a "Finishing Moves" thread, somewhat? Also voted on more death animations.

Basically more Enemy Finishing Moves would be fun I guess, let your fodder companions go out with a bang on ironman

[rjshae]

Meh, I'm not hung up about it. There's usually so much going on in a party-based game that I usually don't spend much time focusing on the particulars of the character animations. As long as they aren't jarring, I'm okay with just a few animations. They could always just implement rag-doll physics for the death drop.

[Sacred_Path]

If I had to choose, it would be attack animations. I'm really more interested in how my characters perform/ how combat works/ what effect a given weapon has on a given type of armor/ tactical uses of weapons than how many ways someone can shed their intestines.

 

Personally, I'd rather no ressources at all go to working on either, because it's not something I derive much pleasure/ gameplay value from.

[Hormalakh]

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:35 PM, rjshae said:

Meh, I'm not hung up about it. There's usually so much going on in a party-based game that I usually don't spend much time focusing on the particulars of the character animations. As long as they aren't jarring, I'm okay with just a few animations. They could always just implement rag-doll physics for the death drop.

me either. I'm not playing the game for the animations really, but this was one of those "I'm not really invested in it, but I'm interested in others' thoughts" kind of thing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

If I have to choose I pick attack animations any day, coz those you'll see over and over, but hopefully want come to me too often, seasoned and all that I am...      

Edited January 18, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Valorian]

What an utterly silly poll. More than 1 attack animation vs multiple death animations

 

 

Of course attack animations are more important, you'll attack dozens of times during each combat encounter.

Death animations, even if varied, would be varied only against specific types of creatures, under specific circumstances. Additionally, most of the time when you party members fall down in combat it will be due to stamina going to 0, not health (no death animation).

[rjshae]

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:52 PM, Hormalakh said:

 

  On 1/18/2013 at 5:35 PM, rjshae said:

Meh, I'm not hung up about it. There's usually so much going on in a party-based game that I usually don't spend much time focusing on the particulars of the character animations. As long as they aren't jarring, I'm okay with just a few animations. They could always just implement rag-doll physics for the death drop.

me either. I'm not playing the game for the animations really, but this was one of those "I'm not really invested in it, but I'm interested in others' thoughts" kind of thing.

On second thought, maybe we should have a special melodramatic death animation, but only for the Chanter's class.

[Hormalakh]

  On 1/18/2013 at 6:09 PM, Valorian said:

What an utterly silly poll. More than 1 attack animation vs multiple death animations

 

Of course attack animations are more important, you'll attack dozens of times during each combat encounter.

Death animations, even if varied, would be varied only against specific types of creatures, under specific circumstances. Additionally, most of the time when you party members fall down in combat it will be due to stamina going to 0, not health (no death animation).

This is such a silly poll because it's so obvious? Is that why the polls are not highly in your favor? I do suspect this is another thing that goes down the middle in terms of taste - not something "silly" as you put it. Do try again.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Malekith]

Attack animations on an isometric game? Seriously, there are people who pay atention to each individual attack? I have replayed BG2 around 50 times and i don't remember if each weapon had many attack animations or one.

Death animations all the way. They are memorable, fun and can convey the game atmosphere better

Edited January 18, 2013 by Malekith

[Valorian]

Yeah, some people would be perfectly happy staring at their character performing the cloned attack animation for hours and hours, throughout the entire game, if they get to see an AWESOME exploding death animation (à la DA2) every now and then for the awesomeness factor.

 

 

 : Not only silly, but obtuse as well.

[JFSOCC]

you mean I have to choose?

 

then I can honestly say, I don't know.

[Sacred_Path]

I want to see an animation for arrows to the knee

[maggotheart]

I loved the death animations in Fallout 2, especially the one where you hit them with automatic fire from point blank range - RATATATKERSPLODE! Good times. Satisfying, memorable. I don't remember much about how varied spear thrusts were though. I didn't care as much about that. My vote is for better death animations.

[Adhin]

I went with death animations because... some of the games I've had the most fun with, like PE... all use a singular attack animation and death animations are also kinda bland and basic. The idea that humanoids could have a vast array of dying from monster types and weapon types (which would also be used on said humanoid enemies when you murderize them) I feel would add more to things. I mean Infinity engine games had 2 attack animations per weapon type. Diablo 2 had 2 attacks but skill uses where forced to use a singular animation making the 2 attack animations (which had specific heighs for monster types) useless.

 

So yeah, death animations. Sides, only so many ways your gonna animate stabbing with a 1H spear behind a shield, you know?

 

-edit-

Side note, you'll see attack animations and death animations A LOT. General number would be in melee/ranged attack animations but unless your solo'ing you'll see a chaos of attacks off timed from eachother (think of an RTS). Anyway yeah, Snazzy death anims.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Adhin

[Pshaw]

Really I'd much rather go with a little from both rather than all one or the other. That said for a long while in dragon age 2 I had some mace or another and I kept stabbing people with it like it was a sword. I'd much rather have attack animations that make sense over flashy death animations. Especially since I need to generally see the attack animations more often and they're far more prone to going stale.

[Hormalakh]

Oh I don't think they would only do "stabbing" with mace. I'm talking about each weapon having its own basic attack, but then instead of mace having two swings (front hand and bak hand) it would only have one type of swing, but then death animations are in.

[Adhin]

Yeah, if they do a 1-2 animations per weapon type I'd be happy, even if its just 1 per type. But I don't need 3-5 variations of swinging a 1h mace. Don't get me wrong, variation would be nice. But if it comes down to a time thing and they can only manage 1 animation per type - which is what they're doing right now as a base before moving on, so 2nd or 3rds would probably be later on if they could fit it in - I'd prefer the death animations as its a more interesting detail as a whole then a secondary version of thrusting a spear, 2nd ones a few pixels off or has a bit more jitter too it, I dunno, but they're both thrusts in the end.

 

Basically my line of thinking is this, multiple attack animations for the same weapon type can add some nice randomized shift to break up some repetition. Interesting death animations (for enemies and your party members) adds a new detail that otherwise didn't exist before. No infinity engine game really had it, Fallout did from what some folks have said (I honestly can't remember fallout stuff to well sadly).

 

I mean if there is a different animation for a sword and a mace killing a person that's pretty damn good. BG1-2 had the same 2 swing animations for swords, maces, and axes in 1h. Polearms and Staffs and 2h swords all had the same awkward swing animations (only 2). If they instead did 1-2 'per' type instead of forcing staff and polearm to be used the same way along with unique anim for the 2h... that's already an improvement. Same for death except there are a lot more monster/people variations in relation to weapon types.

 

Death animations is more work then a few more weapon attack animations, and add more atmosphere in general for this style of game.

[Hormalakh]

  On 1/19/2013 at 4:37 AM, Adhin said:

 No infinity engine game really had it, Fallout did from what some folks have said (I honestly can't remember fallout stuff to well sadly)

I put some links in my OP for Fallout death animations as well as "The Immortal" Death animations. Take a look.

[Adhin]

Heh potion looks like it has green stuff, open? Think that was my favorite. And yeah All the infinity games had a 2 animations for all 1H weapons. And really when you think about it, Sword, Mace and Axe can use the same animation, so come up with 3 swing animations, use it for all 3 and you got variation. 2H becomes a bit more of an issue since you don't hold a 2H sword the same way you do a 2h blunt. 1h or 2h spears though you basically thrust with and variations on thrusting are mostly the area of the body which is a bit pointless to do unless we're talking special death animations.

 

I can bet you anything they'll end up adding a bit of attack variation in after, closer to the end of the project. It's one of those things they can get in later on, what they meant by its not a priority. They need an animation in for the sake of playability for testing stuff and all that, they don't need 2 for the same thing. Get the basics in, move on to more important stuff (like all the other animations, walking, more bestial monster attacks). Later on when touch up stuffs going on they can add in some variation.

 

But then this thread/poll is more of a what-if all or nothing scenario (which it isn't, really).

 

-edit-

When i say 2 anims in infinity engine I mean just that. Wasn't a minimum of 2, it was literally 2. How much was supported. 2 Attack anims, cast animation, sometimes they had 2 cast animations, everyone in awhile you had some extra special attack animation for a skill (Giants throwing rocks in IWD2). Really was a min of 1, often 2. If there was a 3rd it wasn't a base attack animation it was something else.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Adhin

[Ieo]

Hmm.

 

Well, to be honest, given what's going on with the combat mechanics, I'd like to see more than attack animations but not more death animations.

 

That is, if you miss, I'd like to see the avatar "miss" somehow. Josh says it'll be possible to build "dodge"/"block" character concepts, so if your character dodges, I'd like to see a dodge. If you have a shield equipped and manage to block, I'd like to see the shield block. Nothing too fancy. I'm not sure if all the math will be so finely tweaked that we can tell exactly what happened with a roll (dodge vs. block) since I haven't paid too close attention to the exact numbers that Josh has been proposing.... So I suppose my preferences are more in-line with the second option (Basic death animations. Multiple attack animations for different scenarios) though what I'd like aren't strictly attack animations per se.