Dishonored-inspired Stealth and Retreat Mechanics

[IndiraLightfoot]

Reading the topic "Stealth and Combat" and several other topics, I realize there are many complaints about stealth being the easy way out or the MO of least effort when it comes to achieving xp whatever its shape. There are also complaints about stealth being weird or clunky with an entire party - it's only good for one pc or it doesn't belong in PE at all. All these complaints gave me an idea:

What if sneaking and stealth was just as hard and time-consuming as combat? What if it drained you of stamina and other resources as well. And what if you could have a party of all sneakers passing by a group of enemies just like an encounter where you do battle with them? But this time its sneaking passed them undetected that counts.

 

I propose a system like that in Dishonored, but for the isometric party-based PE. Perhaps mad, yep, but now I've said it!  :D

 

By pressing some sneak mode for each character in your party, you do get to try to stay undetected until you reach a certain point on the map where the encounter takes place or you simply manage to pass them in a certain area, which is calculated by the spawning algorithm with waypoints and all that determine where the enemies and the party start when the "battle scene" is triggered. Simply, your party and the enemy is always lined up in such a way that there is a decent distance and a number of critter/enemies that have to be passed undetected for it to be a success.

 

For those of you unfamiliar with Dishonored's system, it is a system based on each enemy's sight/hearing/detection range. Sight, especially, is like a cone of light in the direction of where the enemy's eyes are looking. Inthe game there are skills that can make these detection "fields" visible to the player and they can be made to shrink, IIRC. Similarly, in PE, a pc can invest in skills that make you a better stealth character.

 

So, say an entire party ninja monks in PE has to pass a gang of thugs in a forest to reach a forlorn crypt. Then the game can shift to that mode for each pc trying it, almost like infravision, nightvision etc in the old IE-games, but now its sneaking and stealth values that are determined in the encounter with colours or visibility (think of Company of Heroes 2, where the visibility /fog of war is much more flexible and realistic depending on where the object moves), that could be implemented in PE's encounters.

 

Most likely, you'll need to use pause or at least the slomo mode Josh mentioned to try to do a good sneaking for an entire party of silent monks. But if you have only one pc and there is just one big dumb troll, the sneaking can be done in real time. So during the encounter the enemies move and look in different questions and you as a player as to navigate passed them silently and slowly, or quickly and unnoticed (various ways should be available, even a teleport-like Blink perhaps?).

 

Better yet, a nice bonus is that this could give us a valid retreat system for a party. Say that a battle goes really bad and you want to flee to save precious resources, stamina, whatever, then now you can. Just turn on this stealth mode and try to sneak out from the combat scene.

 

What do you think, folks?

[Jobby]

I don't agree with sneaking mid-combat unless there's some kind of environmental reason for it, i.e. dark areas, out of line of sight, etc.. 

 

I think the idea of your characters stealth skill being related to what you see on screen regarding noise radii and enemies line of sight is a very good idea, expanding on this you could add in the Hitman mechanic whereby your instinct allows you to see where patrolling guards are going, indicated by a red line on the ground.

 

Personally not so keen on the triggers either, i don't want the game to congratulate for me for sneaking past a bunch of enemies or to tell me "well done you are now safe" that seems a touch contrived and immersion breaking, i may have misunderstood your point however.

 

Essentially what i'm saying is that i'd love to see the sneaking mechanics expanded and brought up to date, i do not however want the game to cater specifically for the few people that decide to sneak past every encounter and avoid all combat, if you choose to sneak past everyone you will miss content.

 

Oh as a point of note it would be nice if you could watch conversations between enemies while stealthed, even if it was a simple as text above their heads, this could glean useful information, lore, or just bad bar jokes. 

[Osvir]

I love this idea but..

I finished Dishonored in the Stealth path in a couple of hours. It was way easier than the combat path, then again, I had meta knowledge so I just flashed through all the maps. Dishonored does have a great Combat/Stealth system, and I think it is a great resource to look at for inspiration.

Parties in Cities is something I would like to take a closer look at.

What if you could control Individual characters across several maps?

Scenario:
Need to get into the building, but we can't really barge in with 6 party members. So Corvo goes the backdoor, and I only control 1 character (or 2) at this point. Corvo does his magic and unlocks the front door and the rest of the party waits outside.

Basically, allowing for situations where you might need to split up your party 2 ways. Lots of fun for a roleplayer in my opinion <- It'd also solve the "6 party members stealthing about is... :/". Instead a sort of "Mission Impossible" approach would be absolutely beautiful, and you can either choose to bash in the front door or do it more elegantly.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hmm, you've got a point about in-combat sneaking as opposed to not detected yet, but still it would make sense to use the same triggered scene in the game. At the very least it should be very hard or even spell-dependent to stealth around unnoticed in the midst of battle if the battlefield is an open field in broad day light with full visibility. But in many cases there will be forests, shadows, out-of-line-of-sight zones because of various objects in the terrain, and then stealth and sneaking in-battle could work.

 

As for the triggers: My point is that the game needs to measure whether you manage to sneak past the enemy, so I was very focussed on the mechanics of it: a trigger, party and enemies placed on starting points (waypoints), and then you are free to try and sneak passed them. It should be difficult, and at any time it could go haywire, so you get detected and then battle ensues.

 

And yes please to people sneaking pass lots of encounters missing content, but sometimes it should be the other way round too. Hack-n-slashers could miss out on content too.

 

An Jobby, I love your idea of getting overhear stuff and evesdropping. It could also be an opportunity to pickpocket npcs.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Osvir: I've played Dishonored a lot, including the dlc. Stealth takes much more time. I very soon became a fast killing machine, but stealth (without metaknowledge, coz I did that the first go) was much more time-consuming, easy.

[Jobby]

Yeah i found dishonored to be far easier just killing everything, hitman even more so, despite this it was still an enjoyable challenge trying to be a silent assassin.

 

In regards to your waypoints I personally would prefer it if sneaking was more sandbox, i.e.  the game does not measure whether you successfully sneak past enemies, it simply measures whether or not they see you, them not being alerted is a successful sneak attempt.

 

I do realise that this may not be as simple to incorporate into an isometric game with a FOW mechanic as it is in dishonored and there needs to be some way around the issue of scripted events occurring after you've just been spotted by another group of enemies you failed to sneak past, i.e. two guards start having an argument once you sneak into range, in all I.E. games it would assume that you have killed everything in your path thus there is nothing to hinder the scripted event, however in this sneaking scenario you may still be spotted by the enemies you didn't kill which could mean you have two guards arguing while you fight the entire castle.

 

The more i think about this the more convoluted it becomes lol.

 

P.S. Osvir, splitting up your party would be a wonderful addition it could add so much tactical depth, and it would remove "you need to gather your party before venturing forth" lol

[Helm]

Reading the topic "Stealth and Combat" and several other topics, I realize there are many complaints about stealth being the easy way out or the MO of least effort when it comes to achieving xp whatever its shape. There are also complaints about stealth being weird or clunky with an entire party - it's only good for one pc or it doesn't belong in PE at all. All these complaints gave me an idea:

What if sneaking and stealth was just as hard and time-consuming as combat? What if it drained you of stamina and other resources as well. And what if you could have a party of all sneakers passing by a group of enemies just like an encounter where you do battle with them? But this time its sneaking passed them undetected that counts.

 

I propose a system like that in Dishonored, but for the isometric party-based PE. Perhaps mad, yep, but now I've said it! :D

These are very valid concepts. My thoughts:

 

1) To avoid combat you do not need to use a stealth ability, so it will not fix the fact that you might want to avoid combat as much as possible where stealth is not required.

2) In spots where the game is very narrow and linear (like in a dungeon), it might work. I would expect something like you mentioned for the stealth ability

3) Sneaking itself should not reward you with xp at all, because it is the easy way out imo. (read number 4 please)

4) You should only get an xp reward for sneaking if it substanitally improves the outcome of the quest/objective i.e. you snuck past the guards so that they did not kill the hostages.

5) Screw pure pacifist runs @ combat haters. Go and play the Sims if you hate combat.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Helm

[IndiraLightfoot]

Thanks for the input, Helm:

1) Elaborate. It should be possible to ensure that encounters always need to be solved game-wise by the player (no fast-skipping here)

2) It is easier in such circumstances, but it could sure work in many cluttered environments as well

3) Sneaking per se should not give you xp, like in Skyrim - heh, you could get good at sneaking by sneaking by yourself up in some mountain,

but successful sneaking, say, through a scene with bad guys, should. Depending on their preception skills, more or less

4) I reckon that should give you a bit extra xp, but more so because of the quest objective being achieved

5) No can afford to pure pacifist in PE. A sneaky monk in PE will get detected, it just is matter of time, and then he/she will have to fight or die.

[Jobby]

3) Sneaking past a scene of badguys, imo it only makes sense to get xp for it if it is an objective (even an optional one), not however if you cant be arsed or are too weak to fight.

Perhaps if they want to encourage sneaking that could have more "optional" objectives in quests that provide a bonus to xp.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Jobby

[Jobby]

Sorry ****ed that post up, started off as a quote and ended up a weird misquote, not trying to put words in your mouth Indira!

[Nonek]

Love the idea of combat being so risky and consequence heavy that we want to avoid it, and that a large amount of enemies inspires dread. Perhaps you could use spells and cipher abilities to distract enemies, thus using up resources. Perhaps your rogue can scout ahead and find alternative paths, where the enemy patrols need to be eliminated quickly and quietly. Or maybe even the fighter or barbarian can open that massive gate or portcullis in a feat of strength, and venture through a long abandoned part of the complex.

 

You could even have escape mechanics, like this: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60413-impossible-odds/?do=findComment&comment=1197854

[IndiraLightfoot]

Thanks for the link, Nonek! And what a lovely list of ideas! Some of them needs to be sharpened into simplified mechanics, obviously, but still escape and retreat is an option I've found wanting in most CRPGs. It was an old post, you've been around here longer than I. 

 

And encounters that make you quiver would certainly be wonderful. And imagine that you could try to sneak past some monsters that are far beyond your league just to get to some chest and snatch the coveted items inside. However, I think I read somewhere that some sort of general "you need to be a certain level to be here"-areas will be used, although I detest such things. I want a game that takes care of that the logical way - the hard way (Not like in Kingdoms of Amalur "You must be level 9-15 to enter this cave/area"). If you can survive the encounter, you die. And I always love the opportunity to try the impossible. I can spend a day in a CRPG just to try to bring down something "I shouldn't". I killed a deathclaw in FNV by adjusting tactics and movement in the terrain and a 9 mm machine gun in like an hour with numerous reloads, and still I loved it! 

[Helm]

Thanks for the input, Helm:

1) Elaborate. It should be possible to ensure that encounters always need to be solved game-wise by the player (no fast-skipping here)

2) It is easier in such circumstances, but it could sure work in many cluttered environments as well

3) Sneaking per se should not give you xp, like in Skyrim - heh, you could get good at sneaking by sneaking by yourself up in some mountain,

but successful sneaking, say, through a scene with bad guys, should. Depending on their preception skills, more or less

4) I reckon that should give you a bit extra xp, but more so because of the quest objective being achieved

5) No can afford to pure pacifist in PE. A sneaky monk in PE will get detected, it just is matter of time, and then he/she will have to fight or die.

 

1) Not in open areas. I don't think that Obsidian wants to constantly send the player through extremely crowded or narrow areas.

2) If it is very cluttered, then yes, of course.

3) We agree.

4) Same here, pretty much.

5) If they make sure that sneaking requires a great amount of skill, and is not a no-brainer easy thing to do, then this would be ok.

 

EDIT: God, I messed up reading that. I have to correct 2 points.

3) I still don't think sneaking should give you extra xp. It should be an alternative activity that should be rewarded in a different way, i.e. by substantially improving the outcome of the quest. i.e. you snuck past the guards so that they did not kill the hostages.

4) see number 3

Edited January 18, 2013 by Helm

[Osvir]

Love the idea of combat being so risky and consequence heavy that we want to avoid it, and that a large amount of enemies inspires dread. Perhaps you could use spells and cipher abilities to distract enemies, thus using up resources. Perhaps your rogue can scout ahead and find alternative paths, where the enemy patrols need to be eliminated quickly and quietly. Or maybe even the fighter or barbarian can open that massive gate or portcullis in a feat of strength, and venture through a long abandoned part of the complex.

 

You could even have escape mechanics, like this: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60413-impossible-odds/?do=findComment&comment=1197854

Yes please. I strongly believe that Project: Eternity could benefit from some Dark Demon Souls influence.

 

   

 

I like the entire post just wanted to highlight that. However, I think that'd be something on a somewhat... higher difficulty.

 

Thanks for the input, Helm:

1) Elaborate. It should be possible to ensure that encounters always need to be solved game-wise by the player (no fast-skipping here)

2) It is easier in such circumstances, but it could sure work in many cluttered environments as well

3) Sneaking per se should not give you xp, like in Skyrim - heh, you could get good at sneaking by sneaking by yourself up in some mountain,

but successful sneaking, say, through a scene with bad guys, should. Depending on their preception skills, more or less

4) I reckon that should give you a bit extra xp, but more so because of the quest objective being achieved

5) No can afford to pure pacifist in PE. A sneaky monk in PE will get detected, it just is matter of time, and then he/she will have to fight or die.

 

1) Not in open areas. I don't think that Obsidian wants to constantly send the player through extremely crowded or narrow areas.

2) If it is very cluttered, then yes, of course.

3) We agree.

4) Same here, pretty much.

5) If they make sure that sneaking requires a great amount of skill, and is not a no-brainer easy thing to do, then this would be ok.

5. Or run like a coward?

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[Helm]

5. Or run like a coward?

I edited my post (before you posted). I misread some of what Indira wrote.

 

But true, running like a coward should because you messed up sneaking should not be possible. There should have to be some kind of tradeoff.

 

[Osvir]

3) I still don't think sneaking should give you extra xp. It should be an alternative activity that should be rewarded in a different way, i.e. by substantially improving the outcome of the quest. i.e. you snuck past the guards so that they did not kill the hostages.

Ya, I really like that. That's kind of what Dishonored gives you.

 

As for a tradeoff by running away, if "Morale" is a part of P:E in some ways, "Leadership" or whatnot, you should first and foremost take a strong hit to that and the Bandits or whatever Ruffian Lawbreaker they are, they should instead gain Morale. So if you ever return you should be having an even harder time.

 

Reputation could be hit as well, obviously the villagers who wanted you to save the hostages won't be very happy about your decision to run.

 

Off-Topic but related to the story of running away: Could Reputation stoop so low that people starts to throw tomatoes and stuff at you?

[jivex5k]

I think PE has a great opportunity to reinvent cRPG stealth, and really make it much better than previous attempts.

Dishonored did stealth pretty well, but I think the best stealth I've experienced was in Metal Gear Solid.

It's important for them to only take concepts that transfer well from genre to genre.

Like enemy field of view, and sense of hearing.

It's also important to relay that information to the player, otherwise they will always be guessing whether they are heard/seen or not.

It turns stealth into a very frustrating affair when you don't know what your doing wrong, or how close you can get.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Great points, jivex5k! 

 

This is indeed a chance for OE to set thins right as far as stealth goes in a CRPG of this kind. And is almost a necessity, then , to make the system transparent and clearcut for the players.

 

Osvir: Running awa, retreat, escaping, all that is great stuff and should be in! However, I wouldn't like a morale system. I want to decide whether I've had it or not in an encounter. Preferrably, I want to have that control of my party members as well. It would be so annoying if a few of them kept running away all the time. This, mind you, doesn't mean that I am against fear-effects and such for magical reasons or reasons of unmentionable horrors, hehe. 

[JFSOCC]

I had a thread not too dissimilar about a week ago, maybe you'll find it interesting:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63102-commandos-a-stealth-perspective/

[IndiraLightfoot]

I completely missed it, problably because Commandos didn't ring a bell for me! Great ideas there. Marry them with some of the ideas here and it will surely juice up PE's stealth system etc. 

 

But Commando on C64 I remember, pretty fun back then.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yeah, Commando on C64 was a lot of fun.

 

Our stealth system isn't going to be an incredibly intricate, elaborate system, but it will be more involved than pressing a button and hoping that the RNG doesn't make enemies see you. We really don't view it as the easy way out.  We want it to be gameplay on its own that requires observation and adaptation -- especially if you're actually using it to move through unaware hostiles.  If you want to use it for light scouting/pre-combat positioning at range, it should be commensurately less risky.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Josh, thanks for the heads up! 

 

It is more than I'd hoped for already, coz you describe positioning, observation and adaptation, and most importantly, the very possibility to sneak by hostiles! It sounds great. Hopefully, you can more or less use that system for attempts to retreat or escape combat that's going south too.

 

And yea, Commando ruled its genre back then. The feeling when you got dropped down by a chopper and started to press on was phenomenal at the time.

[Valorian]

Inchresting!

 

I'm curious if there'll be some (not insignificant) combat penalties for a party that has been spotted, like a penalty to defense for instance?

Or will such a party be as combat ready as a party that went directly on the foe, weapons unsheathed, with the intention to fight?

[Osvir]

Some thoughts for some simple methods:

* Climbing over walls wouldn't require an animation, simply a "teleportation" to the other side by triggering "Wall Climb" with an item. This could get you up to balconies, roofs, without little work for the developer (comparing with making an entire animation for climbing). Grappling doesn't have to be an animation, "Stun" should suffice, even if the ability states differently.
* Taking down some non-lethal, opponent falls down like if they get knocked down (like "Sleep" spell effects) and doesn't have to be anything flashy. Perhaps being able to move bodies and even switch into a temporary "soldier" model (Zombie-disguise in PS:T).
* Swimming, perhaps you can jump into the river near the castle and get in by the sewer. Prone stance = Swimming stance, as an animation it sounds as if it could be a quick adjustment. 2-in-1 stance.
* Jumping: Like climbing, perhaps not even a jump animation. But simply "float" the character as they stand, to the other side. Or a Grappling Hook, Toss, Leap or Teleport ability. Can a Wizard teleport someone else? Perhaps even "Banish" opponents (a spell never used in Final Fantasy 9), teleporting them back a couple of rows, or teleporting out team mates from combat. Or too OP?

Some thoughts for some more complex ideas on what could help a stealth approach:
* Being able to send out party members by themselves: Why? Because I think it's easier to control one stealth character rather than 6 at once, which isn't saying that 6 at once should be impossible. But leaving 5 characters behind while the Rogue in your party sneaks in, I think that sounds like it could be easier to design (instead of designing a 6 man stealth path, of course, leaving room for creativity), as well as very fun to play. Depends on the objective, do you need your entire party to defeat the big bad guy, or can you approach him on your own or from a different perspective***? How "strong" is the world? Rather than how "strong" are you? (Dark Souls PvE~ sorry, deviating).

In Baldur's Gate I rarely split the party up in the "adventurer" phase, it is only in combat I really feel their individuality.

Other related stealth thoughts:
* Vision (Torches/Light Sources), including Class Abilities. Ranger gets a Hawk, Wizard gets a floating orb (Wizard's Eye) or w/e. Or simple a trained perk. Vision and line of sight of both your party and the infiltrated party, very important. A good vision mechanic. Additionally: How much do you see versus how much do they see? Map-control, basically. Vision-spells letting you see an overhead area ahead of you, pane the screen to investigate. When I play Janna on League of Legends, this is super important, with lots of wards I can set up a perimeter that the opponents can not see, but I can see the entire area around them where they are running, so I know exactly how I should move. That is fundamental for a stealth path, I think, and I've danced around many opponents with a bait like that, because I always know where they are, and they have no clue where I'm at. Stealth right? Similarly in Dishonored there's a "Vision" spell that let's you see everywhere, and is very important for the Very Hard Low Chaos playthrough. And if you are pre-dominant in the shadows, perhaps taking out their visions aids you both in sight and advantage. So those lanterns might be a target of vision:

* Patrols. Random pathing or not, I think the only thing that's required is that they meet at some point or do something "acting distracted" really gives you room to pass and or take them down non-lethally or just barge straight in. That is if it is a keep of some sort. Almost every single guard in Dishonored patrols, doing stuff, and its also at those points its easier to get past (unless they are, looking straight at you). Intelligent patrols. When the alarm goes off it has gone off, and everything won't reset. Of course, you can also just climb pretty much all rooftops and pass through entirely undetected on a whim (meta-game). Anyways, I think Dishonored definitively has a good patrol system that seems to be somewhat several "actors" with different pathsets, interrupting in each others, stopping talking to each other, taking a piss.

* Obvious paths that leads obviously into stealth. Running up on those pipes was a different feeling than charging straight at the doors with sword and gun in hand. And even on the ground I could easily spot the areas, great design. P:E is isometric though so, quick-dodge abilities, letting you quickly "burst" in one direction and avoid detection but you get an "!" indicating that they did hear something. Corners, rocks, "bushes", shadows and so on. Whatever is close by to hide behind. Likewise, taking out those nearby lanterns might allow you to stay still in the area until whoever is patrolling is coming closer then take them down or wait til they've passed.

*** The Rogue hearing rumors at a bar leading to another possible approach, attacking the Lord's Caravan whilst he is on his way to a Landsmeet, rather than attacking that fortified fortress like the Barbarian would?

[JFSOCC]

I hope that alerting one guard doesn't automatically mean you've alerted the entire base