Sexism?

[DeathQuaker]

I trust Obsidian to design a world that is well thought out, and has a good sense of verisimilitude. While I trust them to look to past cultures around the world, I also trust them to consider how magic or other unique or variant events on the world might change how different kinds of people are treated in different societies. Moreover, I do not expect them to create a mirror image of historic medieval Earth, or else they would have said the setting was historic medieval Earth (and as an aside, I am also certain that a game that was actually set in historic medieval Earth and was as accurate as humanly possible to recreate, a number of you would claim it didn't appear medieval at all.). I expect them to create a fantasy world that is most importantly internally consistent with itself, not necessarily with any other world.

 

As to how both men and women are treated, a lot of things have to be considered, including issues of land, war, and health. Most cultures that mistreat women or at least keep them strictly in a role as uneducated wives and mothers are usually borne of situations where maternal and child mortality is very high. Women "have to" be kept in a certain position, ultimately to ensure the proliferation of the race. Men are placed in a position to protect them and ensure they are around to raise the children and make sure the children survive, and unfortunately often cultural traditions that build up around that end up with women being in a very poor position, humanitarian-wise. Notably in real life cultures, those where women have gradually gained civil rights (although are ever working for more), it is usually in societies where maternal and child mortality is down, and the population is booming. Women end up not needing to have as many children or have no children at all, their children need less protection, and thus women realize they have time and opportunity to learn and work and fight, and push to have those rights.

 

In a fantasy world, taking into account what the standard of living is important in determining what social roles of men and women should be. If, for example, magic is abundant enough that disease is rare and many causes of maternal and child mortality are down, then perhaps women are treated more as equals to men--or are at least in a process for fighting for that equality. And so on. But if there IS sexism in the fantasy world, there needs to be more of a reason than "women had no power in the medieval ages," which is a gross oversimplification (and underestimation). The world itself needs to have been shown to have evolved in a certain way.

 

On another note, whether there are sexist societies or not within the world, it needs to NOT AFFECT CHARACTER CREATION. I do not want my choices of what I can play affected by gender. I want to play the hero I want -- after all, heroes are usually the exceptions to many rules. I want to be sure that a male or female hero has the same access to equipment, quests, etc. NPC interactions may be different, but in terms of character options, I think it would be a poor judgement call to limit those.

 

I also don't want to feel like I am punished for playing a female. I recall a horrific time I had in the game Arcanum, which depicted a sexist society and meta-wise seemed very proud of that fact. There is a "Gentleman's Club" in the game you have to get to in order to access a few different quest lines. If you play a male character (male characters also had twice the race options for characters), you can more or less walk right in. If you play a female character, you have to get permission from a lecherous old dude who runs the club. Your options are a) whore yourself out to him to get it, b) pickpocket him (taking an alignment hit for stealing), d) kill him (taking a MASSIVE alignment hit for killing him), or e) refuse. If you refuse him, you can provoke him into attacking you. If you kill him in self defense, you STILL take the massive alignment hit -- I remember my character with pristine alignment suddenly went all the way to the other side of evil if this happens. Basically, the game tells you your female character is evil UNLESS she prostitutes herself out to him or you just avoid the situation entirely. Not cool, on so many levels. I've had many people tell me this situation was a bug, but that's the kind of thing that should have been fixed. It was so very frustrating, and so very not fun. I felt again, like I was being punished first for playing a female hero, and then being punished for trying to preserve my female character's honor and pride. No video game should ever give that impression.

 

As for rape and other triggery issues -- I hope Obsidian decides to deal with those issues, if they write them, with careful thought, discretion, and compassion for real life victims of such crimes, both male and female alike. And if traumatic events are to occur to characters, then it should be "equal opportunity"--there should be potential for males or females alike to suffer such things. If that is being "politically correct," then I'd rather be PC then endorse a crippling double standard that alienates half a potential customer base.

Edited December 4, 2012 by DeathQuaker

[PsychoBlonde]

Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away?

 

AFAIK, Joan of Arc didn't impersonate or present as being a man. She was commissioned by the king of France, who did so knowing she was a young woman. The example you're looking for is someone like Brita Olofsdotte who impersonated being a man to get into the Swedish cavalry (and after dying in battle the king approved her family receiving her pay) or Frances Clalin joining the Missouri Artillery and Cavalry alongside her husband. The adoption of wearing men's clothing in Joan's case (and in the case of, say, Joanna of Flanders) was more practicality than anything else (for a couple of different reasons) as they weren't trying to hide who they were.

 

I remember reading a statistic somewhere that upwards of 500 women fought in the American Civil War, most disguised as men.

[alanschu]

In most fantasy games it seems to be the norm that sexism doesn't exist and that women and men have the same basic rights and societal roles in the world. But I'm not sure if this is necessarily the best way to handle things (hear me out here). Part of what makes characters like Brienne in SoIF or Joan of Arc interesting, is all the adversity they have had to overcome to be considered an equal by men in a sexist time. To totally gloss over the issue and have everyone express totally modern viewpoints seems like kind of a missed opportunity for role-play as well as just unrealistic. Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away? Obsidian mentioned IIRC that they were going to deal with racism, but will they also deal with sexism and what are your guys' thoughts on the matter?

 

 

I agree, the devs should totally make males subservient and oppressed by the women of the universe. I think it'd be really interesting to have the male character have to face all the adversity of living in a predominantly matriarchal society and all the challenges that that presents.

 

Of course, this means that the setting should properly reflect the improved standing of women. If they can make this type of reactivity in the game, I think it'd be great and very replayable.

[alanschu]

If it was to happen to one of your companions, it could be the start of a great revenge quest.

 

That's just it. It always happens to someone else. Have it happen to the PC for a change. Double the point value if it only happens to the PC if the PC is male, and double it further if there's no way to actually enact revenge (you can follow up on it and attempt it, but ultimately payback is beyond your reach).

[Ulquiorra]

Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away?

 

AFAIK, Joan of Arc didn't impersonate or present as being a man. She was commissioned by the king of France, who did so knowing she was a young woman. The example you're looking for is someone like Brita Olofsdotte who impersonated being a man to get into the Swedish cavalry (and after dying in battle the king approved her family receiving her pay) or Frances Clalin joining the Missouri Artillery and Cavalry alongside her husband. The adoption of wearing men's clothing in Joan's case (and in the case of, say, Joanna of Flanders) was more practicality than anything else (for a couple of different reasons) as they weren't trying to hide who they were.

 

I remember reading a statistic somewhere that upwards of 500 women fought in the American Civil War, most disguised as men.

 

Yeah and American civil war was in mideval times. i wil understand this sentence if Eternity ill be based od 17 18 century not (late madival)...

 

In medival timed Joan of Arc was one of few exeptions, women in this time was distriminated even Joan must pretend to act like virgin and holy to not be distroyed by men in this time and in my opinion Joan whoud accopmlish more if she where men not women in that time. (btw about your AMERICAN civil war) if you can tell me one thing about AMERICAN medival history (with dates) that whoud be great ...

 

AND we are talking that Eternity is MEDIVAL based (not 18 century, not wall street, not hollywon based world) so examples from other times is just not acurate.

 

From iluson to ilusion.....

Edited December 4, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[Badmojo]

In most fantasy games it seems to be the norm that sexism doesn't exist and that women and men have the same basic rights and societal roles in the world. But I'm not sure if this is necessarily the best way to handle things (hear me out here). Part of what makes characters like Brienne in SoIF or Joan of Arc interesting, is all the adversity they have had to overcome to be considered an equal by men in a sexist time. To totally gloss over the issue and have everyone express totally modern viewpoints seems like kind of a missed opportunity for role-play as well as just unrealistic. Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away? Obsidian mentioned IIRC that they were going to deal with racism, but will they also deal with sexism and what are your guys' thoughts on the matter?

 

 

I agree, the devs should totally make males subservient and oppressed by the women of the universe. I think it'd be really interesting to have the male character have to face all the adversity of living in a predominantly matriarchal society and all the challenges that that presents.

Of course, this means that the setting should properly reflect the improved standing of women. If they can make this type of reactivity in the game, I think it'd be great and very replayable.

 

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

[Dream]

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

 

They could get around that with 1 line though. "It's easier for women to access their souls."

 

Boom, reverse sexism makes sense and is "realistic."

[jezz555]

The point I was making wasn't that she didn't dress as a man (she did) but she did so for reasons other than pretending to be a man to do armed service - she was commissioned as a woman. Part of the wearing men's clothes was just plain sense for wearing armor to protect arms, legs and chest, but supposedly pants also made it harder for her to be molested by less than scrupulous men who might be under her command.

 

It did also become a point of the heresy trial in England as I recall that she wore trousers. But passing herself off as a man wasn't the reason she did so.

 

Clearly, though, historical precedent show Joan of Arc or Joanna of Flanders are the exceptions in medieval times.

 

Cool stuff, and you're right, I didn't know any of that. Regardless though, for the reasons you gave a woman might still want to dress up as a man in the middle ages, even if not to enter the army in the first place, still a pretty viable/interesting character concept imo.

 

 

Seriously? That's where you're getting your history from? An action flick? When you argue with people it's usually a good idea to know what the **** you're actually talking about (whether it's history or fiction). I do like how anytime someone calls you out on your BS you just go "I never claimed to be an expert!" like that's some kind of defense (especially considering how adamant you were in your statements).

 

Jesus what did I ever do to piss you off so badly? You derailed my thread, I'm the one who should be pissed off, I said he was "probably right" because he probably is. I don't really know very much about Joan of Arc nor did I ever say I did(as I said), I was never "adamant", we covered her in history class back in HS, and I watched the Luc Besson movie, I'm not trying to defend my ignorance at all. When it comes to Joan of Arc (and firefly as well), I am very ignorant, happy? I was just offering up a role-play possibility for a woman in an rpg containing sexism as an example, the actual history isn't incredibly relevant to that, but I welcome any corrections. unlike some people here I like learning new things, instead of just shouting at people until they get tired and decide to ignore me.

 

Except India is one of the biggest offenders of such attacks and there the overwhelming majority is Hindu. But I guess you probably never claimed to be an expert at that either, right?

 

There are muslims in India...also why are you still on this? The people I was responding to dropped it, lets follow their example.

Edited December 4, 2012 by jezz555

[alanschu]

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

 

You cannot say this without seeing how it's done in game.

 

 

Here's the delicious irony: If a game doesn't have the sexism, it's unrealistic. If the game has sexism but the roles are reversed, it's simply dismissed as an unoriginal attempt to mirror it and its point is undermined. I'd argue it's significantly lazier to just use Earth's history as a foundation for how to make the characters.

 

This is a seriously bad reflection of ourselves. You're right, it's true that people justify their perception this way. It's horrifying that it is.

 

 

I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way.

 

This is the problem. We are not wired biologically this way. There are reasons why people assume that we are, but it's not a good thing. There have actually been functioning societies in history that did not have significant gender inequality. Biological determinism would not allow this if it were true.

 

 

Realistically what you're looking for here isn't gender inequality though. It's borderline misogyny. Being a woman should be more difficult in Project Eternity because it's the only way women should have it.

 

The really horrifying thing is that people say they want it so that they can overcome it. But if the roles are reversed and it's matriarchal, it's just not acceptable. It's not believable. This is awful.

[Badmojo]

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

 

They could get around that with 1 line though. "It's easier for women to access their souls."

 

Boom, reverse sexism makes sense and is "realistic."

 

No it doesn't, players everywhere would still call it BS and a lazy reason to include PC mirror "ism" which is exactly what it would be.

[Ulquiorra]

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

 

You cannot say this without seeing how it's done in game.

 

 

Here's the delicious irony: If a game doesn't have the sexism, it's unrealistic. If the game has sexism but the roles are reversed, it's simply dismissed as an unoriginal attempt to mirror it and its point is undermined. I'd argue it's significantly lazier to just use Earth's history as a foundation for how to make the characters.

 

 

Sexism is not men discovery, women are sexist the same way as we are, if you think they arent you live in ilusion. And i want to see both of them in eternity becose pixels don't get me offendet that easly.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[jezz555]

You cannot say this without seeing how it's done in game.

 

 

Here's the delicious irony: If a game doesn't have the sexism, it's unrealistic. If the game has sexism but the roles are reversed, it's simply dismissed as an unoriginal attempt to mirror it and its point is undermined. I'd argue it's significantly lazier to just use Earth's history as a foundation for how to make the characters.

 

This is a seriously bad reflection of ourselves. You're right, it's true that people justify their perception this way. It's horrifying that it is.

 

 

Okay, try to read the following without calling me a misogynist because I think I can see where this is going. Your suggesting that women and men are more or less equal in every-way and that it's just a matter of chance that men have oppressed women for the past all-of-human-history, if I follow correctly. I don't really think there is anything that supports that though, we all know that women and men are different. Not that either gender is superior, just that they have different traits. This is pretty demonstrable. So we can conclude then, that it is as a result of that, that men have and have had the positions in society that they have and women have and have had the positions in society that they have.

 

Among all animals, men and women fill different gender roles, because they are different. SO in order to switch things up and have a reversed form of sexism in society you would have to significantly change the traits of each gender, like Dream said "woman can access their souls better" or something like that( I think Wheel of Time does something like that). There would need to be something that allowed them to take the place that men now have, because it's not just a matter of chance.

 

So It's not that I'm not in favour of it or that it would automatically be bad, but you would need to alter the genders, you couldn't just switch them, like that other guy said. It's not that it's unrealistic automatically, it's just that its unrealistic with human men and women, the way they are now. It would be fine with a different species, like how with lions women do the hunting and men stay at home, but not with normal humans. So yeah, that's my opinion.

Edited December 4, 2012 by jezz555

[Badmojo]

Not really, that would just come across as lazy dev PC correct mirror image "(insert word)ism". Oh wow, the men are repressed and the women are sexist, gee, that is sooo original/ sarcasm. I could see another species/race being this way. I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way. I am also in the camp who would like to see some realistic "isms" in games, it is a bit annoying that most games have everybody getting along just fine when in real life, people are not like that at all.

 

You cannot say this without seeing how it's done in game.

 

 

Here's the delicious irony: If a game doesn't have the sexism, it's unrealistic. If the game has sexism but the roles are reversed, it's simply dismissed as an unoriginal attempt to mirror it and its point is undermined. I'd argue it's significantly lazier to just use Earth's history as a foundation for how to make the characters.

 

This is a seriously bad reflection of ourselves. You're right, it's true that people justify their perception this way. It's horrifying that it is.

 

 

I just have trouble seeing humans being this way, we are sort of wired biologically this way.

 

This is the problem. We are not wired biologically this way. There are reasons why people assume that we are, but it's not a good thing. There have actually been functioning societies in history that did not have significant gender inequality. Biological determinism would not allow this if it were true.

 

 

Realistically what you're looking for here isn't gender inequality though. It's borderline misogyny. Being a woman should be more difficult in Project Eternity because it's the only way women should have it.

 

The really horrifying thing is that people say they want it so that they can overcome it. But if the roles are reversed and it's matriarchal, it's just not acceptable. It's not believable. This is awful.

 

Sorry, but as soon as you said the M word (misogyny), I stopped reading. That word has been used, stretched, and abused so much that I think its lost all meaning. That, sexist, rape supporter, pig, etc are just shock words to villianfy a person and I will not have it. If people want to discuss how VIRTUAL CHARACTERS are in a game, lets discuss it, and SOME name calling is to be expected. However, those words are hate filled and right up with calling someone a B or an N in my mind. I refuse to accept it and will call anybody out on it.

[Vin]

I'd think it'd be a good step up if I was treated differently at all for being a woman -- and I'm talking beyond the occasional, "Hard to imagine 'insert awesome hero title here' is really a woman. What a surprise," or, "You're a beautiful woman, Hawke," multiplied by four because every single friggin' NPC in that game will tell you how beautiful you are.

Being treated badly or being pandered to are just as bad, in my opinion.

There's classic sexism, where women in games are treated badly in-universe or out.

Then there's the popular sexism where women are treated as totally awesome, although this is less in-universe and more of an external example, because men made them to be totally awesome. And expect the player to buy into it as they lug their beautiful, female plot-device around the countryside.

If I am going to be treated badly in a video game for being a woman, I would at least like the option to kick the offender in his nethers. And if more than two people tell me I'm a beautiful woman in less than an hour, I'd like the option to kick them too.

[alanschu]

Sexism is not men discovery, women are sexist the same way as we are, id you think they arent you live in ilusion. And i whant to see both of them in eternity becose pixels don't get me offendet that easly.

 

Convince me that this thread is about showing the female sexism as it exists in today's world, and I'll have no problems championing this post. Yes, both men and women can be and are sexist. Fortunately for men, we're the power brokers and such sexism is less frequently applied to me to the point where I feel any sort of measurable disadvantage. Especially compared to the advantages that I receive.

 

 

Furthermore, pixels don't offend me either. I don't find the excessive posts that ask for sexism (and other "mature" themes) ridiculous simply for the point of asking for them. If you're really looking for conflict and adversity it can be done in a multitude of ways. it doesn't need to be done via something like sexism, and there are disadvantages for doing so.

[Dream]

Jesus what did I ever do to piss you off so badly? You derailed my thread, I'm the one who should be pissed off, I said he was "probably right" because he probably is. I don't really know very much about Joan of Arc nor did I ever say I did(as I said), I was never "adamant", we covered her in history class back in HS, and I watched the Luc Besson movie, I'm not trying to defend my ignorance at all. When it comes to Joan of Arc (and firefly as well), I am very ignorant, happy? I was just offering up a role-play possibility for a woman in an rpg containing sexism as an example, the actual history isn't incredibly relevant to that, but I welcome any corrections. unlike some people here I like learning new things, instead of just shouting at people until they get tired and decide to ignore me.

 

I don't see where I derailed your thread (hell, you derailed your own thread if anything). By the way, learning new **** implies actually learning from it, not acknowledging you were dead wrong and then continuing on with your same faulty assumptions.

 

Except India is one of the biggest offenders of such attacks and there the overwhelming majority is Hindu. But I guess you probably never claimed to be an expert at that either, right?

There are muslims in India...also why are you still on this? The people I was responding to dropped it, lets follow their example.

 

So the fact that Muslims are present in a country is reason enough to attribute bad things that happen in that country to Muslims? Damn, talk about racism. Search acid throwing victim on google images and look at how many are wearing traditionally Hindu garb (hint: those that are aren't Muslims). Also the people you were responding didn't drop it; if anything they got tired of you shouting at them and decided to ignore you (imagine that).

[jezz555]

 

I don't see where I derailed your thread

 

 

That may be because you're still doing it...

 

 

So the fact that Muslims are present in a country is reason enough to attribute bad things that happen in that country to Muslims? Damn, talk about racism. Search acid throwing victim on google images and look at how many are wearing traditionally Hindu garb (hint: those that are aren't Muslims). Also the people you were responding didn't drop it; if anything they got tired of you shouting at them and decided to ignore you (imagine that).

 

Muslim is a race?

Edited December 4, 2012 by jezz555

[Dragoonlordz]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

[jezz555]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

 

If you don't like this kind of thread you don't have to post in it, there are plenty of other threads out there.

[Dragoonlordz]

If you don't like this kind of thread you don't have to post in it, there are plenty of other threads out there.

 

Here you go I can do one better than that.

 

Nothing said in here hasn't been said before. Feel free to read that thread which is in essense the same discussion as will get in this one.

 

Like that one the way this one is heading will end up locked as that one was as they tend to follow a specific pattern. Now you can be dismissive of the reasonable advice in my last post I just gave as thats your choice. But you could also use the search function on site if want to know what people think about this aspect and topic for PE as it has been discussed in great detail before of which I was present. There are more than one thread which have discussed this topic. All of the ones I have seen get locked for a reason because they all head down the same path however if you wanted to know what people thought about this topic you could of read one of the many others on it that have come before.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[jezz555]

If you don't like this kind of thread you don't have to post in it, there are plenty of other threads out there.

 

Here you go I can do one better than that.

 

Nothing said in here hasn't been said before. Feel free to read that thread which is in essense the same discussion as will get in this one.

 

Like that one the way this one is heading will end up locked as that one was as they tend to follow a specific pattern. Now you can be dismissive of the reasonable advice in my last post I just gave as thats your choice. But you could also use the search function on site if want to know what people think about this aspect and topic for PE as it has been discussed in great detail before of which I was present. There are more than one thread which have discussed this topic. All of the ones I have seen get locked for a reason because they all head down the same path however if you wanted to know what people thought about this topic you could of read one of the many others on it that have come before.

 

It's a different topic, I was saying there should be sexism present in the world. He was saying that there shouldn't be sexist archetypes in the story. Regardless if you don't like this type of thread or think it's going to get derailed or whatever, I'm not forcing you to be here, I started this thread because it was something I thought was interesting, and I thought would make for good conversation, I'm aware the premise is somewhat provocative but I like threads like this and that's what forums are for. If it get's locked so be it, but your doomsaying isn't really doing anybody any good.

Edited December 5, 2012 by jezz555

[Dragoonlordz]

It's a different topic, I was saying there should be sexism present in the world. He was saying that there shouldn't be sexist archetypes in the story. Regardless if you don't like this type of thread or think it's going to get derailed or whatever, I'm not forcing you to be here, I started this thread because it was something I thought was interesting, and thought would make for good conversation, I'm aware the premise is somewhat provocative but I like threads like this that's what forums are for. If it get's locked so be it, but your doomsaying isn't really doing anybody any good.

 

Here is another and another for you. It is not a different topic at all, when a thread says does not want sexism do you really think noone brought up the reply of they do want it in such threads? They have been discussed from all angles in each in great detail.

 

This topic has been covered many times and the discussion in each covered anything you wanted to know from both sides of the fence.

 

Its fine to want a discussion about something but when such discussion have already been covered in the content of multiple threads around such subjects then a search and read is the best option. When I, myself see a trend of all such topics getting locked one after another it is not unreasonable to inform the creator unless he can control the content of his own which you have failed to do as shown with your whole bickering about muslims and real world issues with other posters...that things are heading down same path as the locked ones.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Zenning]

First off, no, what ever the hell you're talking about does not exist. There is no story involving women being unable to go to school because someones throwing acid at their faces. There are however stories of insane **** from the UK, to Cambodia, Afghanistan, to Ethopia. It is not a reocurring thing in Islamic, or Abrabian cultures.

 

Edit: Whoop, looks like there was one

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...hool/index.html

 

Sorry Jez. But still, my point does stand that its not somehow exclusive to the Middleeast, its considered ****ing nuts in the Middleeast, and it isn't really indictive of Muslim culture any more than the West Boro Church protesting funerals of Christians, or Scandinivan church Bombers were of Athesists.

 

Second, have you ever actually asked a woman in Burka why she wears it, or if she feels oppressed? Because I actually have, and funnily enough, she didn't wear it because of her family, with her parents both opposing it. She didn't feel oppressed, and she didn't do it because she felt she was better than those western women she knew, and were friends with. For her, it was a choice she made because of who she wanted to be, simple as that.

 

It is exclusive to Muslim countries actually(the acid attacks specifically) I'm not saying other religions/people aren't also horrible, but he brought up Islam so that's what I'm talking about, and these are attacks are specifically inspired by Islam. The testimony of somebody raised in a muslim culture is not really reliable as they've never known anything else. I wouldn't ask somebody with Stockholm syndrome if they thought their kidnapper was a bad guy, either. They may say it's because their family "respects them" or whatever but try going outside without one and you get stoned, that's not respect thats oppression. There are groups of women from these countries fighting this kind of opression now so the fact that some of them claim indifference doesn't really say anything. I'm sure back in the 1800's you would find a few slaves who didn't mind slavery all that much( at least with their masters standing menacingly behind them), but I assure you the vast majority of them were pretty pissed about it. You seem preoccupied with Burkha's but what about stopping women from going to school? Is that respect?

 

Anyway this is getting way off topic, TL;DR you are explosively wrong.

 

 

First off, like sombody said, it isn't exclusive to Muslim countries, and the news article I just posted literally showed that to be the case, with examples coming from Cambodia, to the UK.

 

Second, the idea that because they're Muslim women their opinions don't count on how they're being treated, is sexist, and is one of the most bat**** insane arguments I've heard. I mean, of course, women don't have brains in the Middle East, and just do what ever men tell them to do, so anything they have to say is just babble right?

 

Third, you know nothing about Muslim Cultures. You don't realize that back in the middle ages when Europe spent its time being oppressive to all classes, and treating women like ****, in the Middle East made sure its women were as educated, or more so (With the Royal Concubines being one of the most well educated people in the country). Islam has never had anything against Women going t school, and no, walking around without a Burkha in Muslim countries outside of exactly 1, will not get you stoned. Hell, in places like Pakistan and Indonesia they're trying to ban the Burkha, and even the standard Hijab (Head scarf), because they feel like it's oppressive to women, with women of the country being the strongest against it.

 

What is; however, causing **** to refuse women from learning, is regular old misogny, and intolerance, something that is not, in anyway, exclusive to the Muslim world.

 

See, thats what Racism is Jez, and you really need to see this. Assuming that obviously you know better than those backwards people, without ever trying to see why they do things, or who they are. Only seeing what you want to, without thinking for a second that those other guys have a lot of other factors that influence what they do. And, once again, making those massive Assumptions.

 

And finally, all those examples of those women going to school, and being attacked for it.. You realize those women are also Muslims? Right? You realize its a MINORITY, yes, a MINORITY, that is against it, and thats making it so dangerous for those women. You realize that after the shooting of that girl in Pakistan asking for schooling by the Taliban, the Taliban lost more influence in Pakistan, to the point that people called for the Pakistani Government to crack down on their remaining supporters.

 

I'm sorry for derailing the topic, but I just felt all this needed to be said.

 

 

Edit: Finally let me just respond to this line

 

"Muslim is a race?"

 

You're just being pedantic. We don't really have a word that describes what we're talking about, but racism is the closest thing we can think of that describes that form of bigotry.

 

Also, you realize that even without Muslims being a race, his main point still stands right? So why ignore it?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Zenning

[jezz555]

I'm sorry for derailing the topic, but I just felt all this needed to be said.

 

Okay, Let's just agree to disagree at this point it's pretty clear I'm not going to convince you of anything, and this isn't the focus of the thread anyway...so back on track.

Edited December 5, 2012 by jezz555

[Zenning]

Sorry Jezz, I just gotta post one more thing.

 

http://afghanistanonmymind.blogspot.com/2011/06/afghanistan-in-60s-and-70s-part-two.html

 

Did those Women look oppressed to you? Because Afghanistan, even in the 60's and 70's, was still very much a Muslim country.