2 Cities, a Mega Dungeon, and Narrative Design

[mstark]

It will take time and resources to do this, and then you give the player no good reason to tackle this thing.

Easily 75% of Baldur's Gate 2's content was optional, that didn't make it boring. The game encouraged you to explore (to an extent). Some might even argue that the alternative content was the best part of Shadows of Amn, and that less focus should have been given to the main quest. There's no reason to have everything be part of the main plot, ie. a completely linear game. Choice is great, and especially when the choices are between a lot of different awesome areas and side quest lines, that all tie in together to form a greater whole .

 

Also, as has been said, the devs have suggested that in order to progress through the lower dungeon levels, you'll likely have to go gather loot and experience elsewhere. It looks like it will be part of the end game (ie. it'll be hard to take on before the main quest is finished). That said, there's nothing bad with going and collecting a lot of power and loot before setting out on the main quest. If PE is anything like the IE games, it will be hard to out level any content (see my first post in this thread for details).

Edited November 5, 2012 by mstark

[Sacred_Path]

Also, as has been said, the devs have suggested that in order to progress through the lower dungeon levels, you'll likely have to go gather loot and experience elsewhere. It looks like it will be part of the end game (ie. after the main quest is finished).

 

In that case, there should be a 'mini' story line pertaining to the dungeon, and you have to fight/ puzzle your way to its resolution. In that case I would be ok with it. Just don't make a huge lump of content sit there like a wart on the face of the Earth that doesn't have more to offer than lewt.

[mstark]

Also, as has been said, the devs have suggested that in order to progress through the lower dungeon levels, you'll likely have to go gather loot and experience elsewhere. It looks like it will be part of the end game (ie. after the main quest is finished).

 

In that case, there should be a 'mini' story line pertaining to the dungeon, and you have to fight/ puzzle your way to its resolution. In that case I would be ok with it. Just don't make a huge lump of content sit there like a wart on the face of the Earth that doesn't have more to offer than lewt.

From what the devs have said, I believe that's the entire idea behind the dungeon, so we can all rest assured it'll be an adventure worth our time . I'm guessing it'll be a puzzle+combat dungeon along the lines of Watcher's Keep or Durlag's Tower, but probably with more spacing between the puzzles, since this dungeon has so many more levels.

[sesobebo]

... Most folks enjoyed the freedom and exploration in Athkatla, citing it as one of the high points of the game. While one city will likely be structured this way, opening up into another large, sandbox style city late in the game poses problems for pacing. As we approach the climax of a game, the action needs to increase and become more focused, leading to linearity. A sandbox city disrupts this flow...

 

... fifteen levels is far too long to keep players away from the main plot arc...

 

... How would we like to see these big pieces fit together into a cohesive whole, and would we be willing to lose the sandbox feel of a city, break up the mega dungeon broken into discrete chunks, or integrate the mega dungeon into the plot (like Spellhold Asylum in BGII) to accomplish it?

 

i'm not in favour of locking a player out of / into certain places with just area design. i don't think it's necessary, it's just more convenient. for the most part difficulty should keep player out of tougher dungeons and areas, and suspense or some other sense of urgency should keep player locked on the end goal.

 

the two big cities could be presented similarly to rival camps from Ghotic, where throughout the game player deals with them all, but by the end ends up favouring one of them,or walking the thin line between their politics.

 

the megadungeon i've always pictured akin to Dorn's Deep from Icewind Dale: a few semi-linear dungeon-ish areas with a few transitional areas in between.

[Osvir]

Make the mega dundeon optional (This is an absolute must). Make some of the city locations optional. I don't really see the problem here, as long as the devs don't feel the need to drag the story through every single location in the game.

 

Let's say they make it optional, one of two things could happen:

 

1) They make a boring dungeon. Some monsters, some puzzles, some phat lewt, but nothing that requires a building of 15 ongoing levels. With not much interesting to see and no reason to go down there story wise, it would just be a nuisance.

 

2) They make a great, lively dungeon with different factions, their power bases, and interconnecting quests that even branch out into the surrounding countryside. In other words, they fit the entire Temple of Elemental Evil into PE. Why on Earth should that much content be optional? It will take time and resources to do this, and then you give the player no good reason to tackle this thing.

 

In both cases, I would expect to get some very nice gear from a 15 level dungeon, which makes it harder to balance the game for someone who just followed the story or at least didn't do this stuff - that's bad IMO.

 

The Shattered Hand in Icewind Dale is one of my favorite areas because of the factions inside battling an eternal undead/ethereal battle amongst themselves. I kind of feel I would've wanted to adventure there during the chaos leading up to the "Shattered" part. And again I wish to bump this thought:

 

Deeper than Deep Roads <3

[Brother Pain]

How will the large cities' content be structured? Most folks enjoyed the freedom and exploration in Athkatla, citing it as one of the high points of the game. While one city will likely be structured this way, opening up into another large, sandbox style city late in the game poses problems for pacing. As we approach the climax of a game, the action needs to increase and become more focused, leading to linearity. A sandbox city disrupts this flow. Do other members see this a problem, and, if so, how do we structure the game to avoid it?

 

I actually disagree that the game needs to become more and more linear as you near the end, and it's been the cause of me not finishing a lot of CRPGs out there. A point of no return to the final encounter or some such is fine and probably neccesary, but having the last third or half of the game being linear is something I very much dislike.

[Osvir]

How will the large cities' content be structured? Most folks enjoyed the freedom and exploration in Athkatla, citing it as one of the high points of the game. While one city will likely be structured this way, opening up into another large, sandbox style city late in the game poses problems for pacing. As we approach the climax of a game, the action needs to increase and become more focused, leading to linearity. A sandbox city disrupts this flow. Do other members see this a problem, and, if so, how do we structure the game to avoid it?

 

I actually disagree that the game needs to become more and more linear as you near the end, and it's been the cause of me not finishing a lot of CRPGs out there. A point of no return to the final encounter or some such is fine and probably neccesary, but having the last third or half of the game being linear is something I very much dislike.

 

Interesting thought, could the dungeon be 10 levels and the 11th level is a "direction" in the form of 5 different paths? ("Multiple Dungeon Ending" granted that "Each Ending" is "Different Areas")

Edited November 5, 2012 by Osvir

[makryu]

Honestly, I see no problem integrating the mega dungeon and the second city.

 

The mega dungeon has to be optional, the developers don't want to force players who have no special love for this kind of thing to play through it. I agree that I'd like to see as much integration to the "main world" as possible, with quests, factions, loot and creatures that are mentioned elsewhere in the world. But especially I'd like to see the mega dungeon as a place in which the developers let loose their more experimental side, with unorthodox content that they're unsure would please the average player. This could include (but not be limited to) an emphasis in hard content, stuff that pushes players both tactically (in combat) and mentally (with puzzles and such).

 

The second city could work either way as a late game content (remember New Reno?) or as an additional city available from the start. Nonlinearity is not a problem at any stage of the game, IMO. The only thing I'd like the developers to be careful with is to avoid making the action (plot-related, mostly) too focused on the big cities. I think the smaller villages and rural areas should be given a place to shine too.

[Frisk]

I suspect the megadungeon will be tied into the cites - quests that start in the city and require you to fetch something from the dungeon (or vice versa), but I don't know if I want to see it as a part of the main quest - assuming there is a single *main* quest to begin with....personally I'm homing for a complicated, intertwined ste of primary quests....that would really increase replayability for me.

[Somna]

I say, make the second city a secret city either floating in the clouds or on a different plane of existence.

[JFSOCC]

I say, make the second city a secret city either floating in the clouds or on a different plane of existence.

city of union!

[Cpl Halsbart]

Opening the lowest tiers of the dungeon ought to affect the surface world: at least to introduce creatures, materials, maybe new lore and sorceries (a faction?) that might otherwise be brooding or lost to thought.

 

I think slowly "excavating" a trickster god's prison, then deciding what to do with it could be an impacting way to incorporate it into the plot. So it's walking a different path to the conflagration.

 

I mean, it's a dungeon - only the biggest - so for verisimilitude sake, Who built it and who is/was dungeon'd inside?

Edited November 7, 2012 by Ada'tyool