[Merged] Armor mechanics thoughts

[Elerond]

Video of study made in University of Leeds limitations imposed by full plate

 

And here is study it self

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/07/15/rspb.2011.0816.full

[Shevek]

Of course armor is limiting. If it wasn't, soldiers wouldn't have shed leg and arm armor once firearms came into common use. I recall reading a while back of soldiers willfully "losing" armor pieces rather than wear them in battle.

[Merlkir]

I recall reading a while back of soldiers willfully "losing" armor pieces rather than wear them in battle.

 

I suspect that may be artistic license, or a hyperbole. While getting cheaper in the later periods, armour was far too expensive to throw away.

[Shevek]

I think it's you who should be under serious suspicion of trolling, your ignorance seems quite extensive.

 

Medieval history was a passing passion for me, so I wouldn't remember the sources even if I tried to. Then again it was contemporary accounts, rather than videos from fine gentlemen, falling from a horse in plate armor, so I would give them more credit. Scholarly articles are the best, grated, but I am yet to encounter any of those titled "On the piercing of plate armor by English warbow at point blank range", so I can't present anything of that sort to support my case.

 

So I suppose I'll have to conclude our argument with saying that your ignorance and trust in self-proclaimed experts, posting videos on YouTube, is so unashamed and appalling, that it must take the simple lack of knowledge to a whole new level.

 

Now when this rather heated argument is done for, I'll get to the point I was trying to make in the first place. Realistically, plate armor is history once muskets come into play. Realistically, plate armor is only fit for battlefield situations, not for running around a town or forest or for doing any travelling in it. But we are talking about a fantasy game here, so we shouldn't put too much stock in realism.

 

Some limitations should be implemented due to armor weight. If not, you have guys in full plate running around doing somesaults while dual wielding rapiers to double thrust an enemy through the eyes as they move to drop kick another for behind him.

 

The heft of armor should come with signifcant consequences to a character's defensive and offensive capabilities.

[Elerond]

 

 

Some limitations should be implemented due to armor weight. If not, you have guys in full plate running around doing somesaults while dual wielding rapiers to double thrust an enemy through the eyes as they move to drop kick another for behind him.

 

From that this come in mind

[Shevek]

Weight remains as potent a factor as it was in the seventeenth century, when foot soldiers rebelled and threw away their armor, which had become much heavier as firearms improved.

 

Source (bottom of page eight): http://www.metmuseum...df.bannered.pdf

Edited November 1, 2012 by Shevek

[jivex5k]

These arguments about what real armor provides are all moot.

Gameplay balance trumps realism.

 

It doesn't matter if a man in full plate custom fitted can move around easily. There needs to be a reason to choose something else over plate or everyone would use plate.

[Grand_Commander13]

These arguments about what real armor provides are all moot.

Gameplay balance trumps realism.

 

It doesn't matter if a man in full plate custom fitted can move around easily. There needs to be a reason to choose something else over plate or everyone would use plate.

• Cost to purchase
  
• Cost to repair
  
• Limited quantities available for purchase
  
• Fatigue to wear when exploring (and just to head off one obvious criticism: clearly you'd disallow fast-swapping of armor after pausing and going to inventory)
  

All much better ideas than deciding that if it's actually good at its job then you can't be good at yours.

[Elerond]

Gameplay balances what we have seen in past

 

AD&D full plate is best and one would use it, but some classes can't use it or it blocks usage of class specific abilities.

D&D 3.0 and 3.5 put limit to dexterity bonus, some classes must take feat to be able to use one and it restricts some class specific abilities

DAO, full plate causes abilities to use more combat resource and armours have minimium strength requirement to character to wear them.

 

And in all of these games full plate is rare and expensive and it weight more than other armours.

 

In all of these settings reason for not to use full plate come from realism or world inner logic.

[Osvir]

These arguments about what real armor provides are all moot.

Gameplay balance trumps realism.

 

It doesn't matter if a man in full plate custom fitted can move around easily. There needs to be a reason to choose something else over plate or everyone would use plate.

 

I agree. In this sense we are going to have to look at:

 

Plate Guy vs Leather Guy, equally skillfull with their weapons and armor. For the sake of simplicity they are both wielding a shield and sword.

 

What advantages does Mr Plate have versus Mr Leather and vice versa? What are their disadvantages?

 

Speed is one that I think we all can agree on, Mr Lwill easily outmaneuver Mr P, but if Mr P manages to get a hold of Mr L he might be fecked. Maybe it is simply that simple? Does it have to be complex and give you buffs?

 

What are the requirements to be able to use Full Plate Mail? (Based on Class and Stats) could it even penalize one of your stats (Dexterity)?

 

Should "Action Speed" be a stat in itself? (Movement and Attack Speed)

[jivex5k]

These arguments about what real armor provides are all moot.

Gameplay balance trumps realism.

 

It doesn't matter if a man in full plate custom fitted can move around easily. There needs to be a reason to choose something else over plate or everyone would use plate.

• Cost to purchase
  
• Cost to repair
  
• Limited quantities available for purchase
  
• Fatigue to wear when exploring (and just to head off one obvious criticism: clearly you'd disallow fast-swapping of armor after pausing and going to inventory)
  

All much better ideas than deciding that if it's actually good at its job then you can't be good at yours.

Interesting take.

Maybe it's time to get away from the old idea that plate inhibits movement and start looking at other pros/cons.

The important thing remains that it's balanced of course.

[Merlkir]

There could of course be poorly crafted plate, perhaps made by some of the more savage nations trying to imitate plate they've seen their enemies wear, but doing so poorly. That would probably hinder movement.

[Osvir]

There could of course be poorly crafted plate, perhaps made by some of the more savage nations trying to imitate plate they've seen their enemies wear, but doing so poorly. That would probably hinder movement.

 

But in comparison with other armor plate armor is more

 

Minsc speaks about running around naked in one of his banters, but I never see him or envision him in combat as someone running. He is stable, capable, strong and very intimidating for his enemies. It isn't about the character gets handicapped just putting the thing on, the thing is that a person in leather armor would, by physics, not has much weight weighing down.

 

One of the videos I posted earlier was a Part 1 in a 6 part instruction, the instructor explains fighting techniques with armor. Look at his posture, how he moves and how he talk the talk. To quote what he repeats himself: "You are very restricted".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S_Q3CGqZmg

 

EDIT:

Could weight entirely effect your character (Weight relevant to how much you can carry, having 70% of it would give your character penalties, just as 50% would)? Whether it is an item gathering dust in the backpack or that full plate armor.

 

I also like the idea that full plate armor would be more expensive to repair. Is durability something anyone wishes to see? Poll?

Edited November 1, 2012 by Osvir

[Electricall]

I also think the armor realism discussion has no place when talking about a fantasy RPG. Realistic armor mechanics was never a priority in cRPGs, and should never be. There's no "simulator" in "computer role playing game."

 

Overall, I think the various types of base armor in the game should all feel relevant, interesting, and satisfying to use, depending on class/race/build. No matter what choice you make in equipment, there should be advantages and disadvantages, and challenges to overcome. Choosing armor should be a meaningful decision that helps set the tone of the gameplay experience. There should never be a case of "I will always go full plate with this class because it's always the best option", same goes for every type of armor. That's boring and kills replayability. It's acceptable, though, that for a certain build, you'd prefer a certain type of armor. So like a turtle fighter would go for the heaviest armor and max out toughness and durability, naturally.

[Osvir]

I also think the armor realism discussion has no place when talking about a fantasy RPG. Realistic armor mechanics was never a priority in cRPGs, and should never be. There's no "simulator" in "computer role playing game."

 

Isn't it a simulator of the P:E world in a sense though?

[rjshae]

There could of course be poorly crafted plate, perhaps made by some of the more savage nations trying to imitate plate they've seen their enemies wear, but doing so poorly. That would probably hinder movement.

Yes, I would like to see more use of shoddy weapons and armor among the less civilized races. Looting the gear from such creatures shouldn't be a very profitable affair. They can be made tough opponents through other means.

[Osvir]

Yes, I would like to see more use of shoddy weapons and armor among the less civilized races. Looting the gear from such creatures shouldn't be a very profitable affair. They can be made tough opponents through other means.

 

Do all bandits have to drop fully functional leather armor every time? What if they broke when I landed that critical hit and now I can only salvage some repair parts for my own armor. Could parts of your body armor get crippled in a Fallout way?

Edited November 2, 2012 by Osvir

[Nerezza]

I personally find it really annoying when games end up having one or two “Best Game Items” for each type of item. It offers little reason to use anything else because doing so will be at the cost of your characters effectiveness.

 

I would like to see a large variety of item types that have specific uses for specific circumstances.

I’d also like to see some value being given to clothing type armour. In games like TES there was no point to wearing clothing aside from an aesthetic novelty. It would be nice to see NPC’s react differently to you depending on what you are wearing.

 

For instance, you’re wandering around town wearing full plate and wielding swords / axes / flails – people are going to be a bit more wary of you (unless you are known). If you walk around wearing normal clothing however people are going to be a bit more relaxed around you (or more prone to start a fight!).

[Grand_Commander13]

I would like to see a large variety of item types that have specific uses for specific circumstances.

I’d also like to see some value being given to clothing type armour. In games like TES there was no point to wearing clothing aside from an aesthetic novelty. It would be nice to see NPC’s react differently to you depending on what you are wearing.

 

For instance, you’re wandering around town wearing full plate and wielding swords / axes / flails – people are going to be a bit more wary of you (unless you are known). If you walk around wearing normal clothing however people are going to be a bit more relaxed around you (or more prone to start a fight!).

This is a big thing for me. I loved Arcanum's smoking jacket because it gave me a great excuse to change out of my armor in town! I'd like to see more of a stick causing you to want to take the armor off in Project Eternity, as part of a wider system where your clothes set peoples' reaction towards you. Different characters would respond differently to different clothes (not necessarily better or worse, but a priest might ply a well-dressed character for donations and inquire whether one dressed in rags has a place to sleep for the night—even if he would still extend charity to a well-dressed traveler).

 

As for there being a best item, I don't think it's a huge deal. Fallout's armor customization was non-existent, but since it makes sense I'm fine with it. I'd prefer a sensible progression from "armor I can afford" to "best armor money can buy" over a system where armor is comically unrealistic in an effort to force diversity in armor. My character isn't his gear, and I do have other ways to differentiate him from other characters: attributes, perk selection, skills, even less-obvious pieces of gear like what rings he wears (assuming we have the traditional setup with two magical rings).

[Mikaw]

... so much answers about the plate vs chain issue...

I really don't think that's really important. For most players who are not medieval armor specialists (and who probably don't even care about such knowledge) a simple hierarchy would be enough, like this one: cloth<leather<chain<scale<plate in terms of protection. And thé mobility decrease with the protection. That may not be realistic if you consider the real properties of those kinds of armor but for basic balancing and intuitive understanding for anyone who doesn't feel the need to gather all the knowledge (and théiste include most of "core" rpg players.

You can always add other categories if you want more choice but the basic system should remain simple, since it will be subject to many modifiers like : material, quality, enchantment, maybe character's feats or specialisations, etc...

 

Another aspect of armor mechanic in a game is : how it actually works.

In d&d armors grant armor class in other games they grant damage reduction. I prefer the second, as it let toi more light armored fighters the benefits of dodge the counterpart is that they take more damage when they're hit. They're also some intersting alternatives which combine the two mechanics as described in enearthed arcana from d&d 3.5 and is also used in fantasy craft..

All the balancing between those few parameters is aready delicate without the need to consider the real properties of all the armors.

[Merlkir]

I really liked the way clothing worked in Arcanum, I did wear those jackets and stuff when I was in town. That's a great feature to remember.

[FlintlockJazz]

... so much answers about the plate vs chain issue...

I really don't think that's really important. For most players who are not medieval armor specialists (and who probably don't even care about such knowledge) a simple hierarchy would be enough, like this one: cloth<leather<chain<scale<plate in terms of protection. And thé mobility decrease with the protection. That may not be realistic if you consider the real properties of those kinds of armor but for basic balancing and intuitive understanding for anyone who doesn't feel the need to gather all the knowledge (and théiste include most of "core" rpg players.

You can always add other categories if you want more choice but the basic system should remain simple, since it will be subject to many modifiers like : material, quality, enchantment, maybe character's feats or specialisations, etc...

 

Another aspect of armor mechanic in a game is : how it actually works.

In d&d armors grant armor class in other games they grant damage reduction. I prefer the second, as it let toi more light armored fighters the benefits of dodge the counterpart is that they take more damage when they're hit. They're also some intersting alternatives which combine the two mechanics as described in enearthed arcana from d&d 3.5 and is also used in fantasy craft..

All the balancing between those few parameters is aready delicate without the need to consider the real properties of all the armors.

 

Swap cloth and leather around and swap scale and chain around and I'll go with that hierarchy.

[TrashMan]

These arguments about what real armor provides are all moot.

Gameplay balance trumps realism.

 

It doesn't matter if a man in full plate custom fitted can move around easily. There needs to be a reason to choose something else over plate or everyone would use plate.

 

 

By that logic we should put some penalties on magical swords, because if we don't then no one would want to use normal swords...

 

Seriously. Plate is the best armor one can have. Period.

It should be the best armor in the game BY FAR. Period.

 

However, that doesn't mean a player will ever be able to equip a whole party with it. Plate armor has to be custom-fitted and is EXPENSIVE AS HELL.

[Larkaloke]

I do like a baseline of realism in armor. Obviously, this being a fantasy game, I expect some fantastic materials and stranger armors as well, but I'll just focus on the basic ones. Somewhat disjointed thoughts likely to follow, because it's still early and I haven't had enough coffee yet.

 

Function:

 

I would like to see armor giving something more akin to damage reduction than to armor class. It has always bothered me a bit when armor helps you avoid a blow rather than deflect it; unless it's enchanted to do that, it doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly, I think, heavier armors would tend to give the most reduction to damage.

 

I'd also like to see different armor being better against different things. Plate being particularly good against slashing, for instance, and more vulnerable to bludgeoning. Although, come to think of it, most things are more vulnerable to bludgeoning and that could be a game balance problem -- perhaps if they had some other disadvantage (a bit slower, requiring more strength to use properly)? That's not exactly an armor issue, though.

 

Also, helmets; I'd like to see a concrete benefit from wearing a helmet. There was the critical deflection chance in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, but it wasn't a particularly large advantage. More damage reduction, perhaps, in addition?

 

Hierarchy:

 

I don't have much of a problem with how it typically is (hide/leather > chain/scale > plate). It's a simplification, but it works well enough. Leather should work better than hide in general, I'd say, but that's about it. I'd say that hide > leather > cloth/padded > scale > chain > plate might be better, but the typical one is good enough.

 

Penalties:

 

I don't like the dexterity penalty for armor in 3rd. It's too restrictive. What I'd rather see instead is a penalty to stamina regeneration, possibly also total stamina, from wearing heavier armor. I think that makes sense, and should have a similar but more realistic effect; certainly, one tends to wear down faster wearing a lot of metal than wearing some leather. I also think it would be an effective penalty.

 

Expense is another one, particularly in the early game. Custom plate should be quite expensive, such that it takes a while to afford it, and probably also such that most people you fight also wouldn't be able to afford it so you wouldn't be able to loot it off the enemy very early. Perhaps even if you had to take a looted suit of full plate to an armorer to get it custom fitted. Chain and scale and similar would also be more expensive than leather, but less expensive than plate. At least for a while, it should be an effective deterrent; and taking into account a stamina drain, some characters might just want to forego the expense for it.

 

If there is anything like a dodge stat or skill as opposed to an armor class, I could see heavier armors giving a slight penalty (say -1 or -2 at most) or perhaps lighter armors giving a slight bonus (of the same +1 or +2 equivalent). That could even things out more without completely eliminating any agility or dexterity benefits in heavier armor.

 

Other:

 

Different styles of armor for different lands would be cool, even if it was mostly just appearance based. If they had slightly different statistics, that might also be interesting (maybe dependent on the temperature of the local or the sorts of creatures they'd end up fighting, that kind of thing).

 

Oh, and shields, since they're generally considered part of armor. It would be awesome if shield bashing was a possible and viable thing to do, but also, I could see shields giving a bonus to armor class as well as a reduction of damage. It seems a lot of the time using a shield ends up an inviable fighting style in games, where the shield only gives a tiny bonus to armor class but renders attacks more ineffective. I'd like to see shield + weapon being just as effective as a two-handed weapon, just in a somewhat different way. Being able to use the shield offensively is part of that, but so is it making a significant difference to defense.

 

I really liked the way clothing worked in Arcanum, I did wear those jackets and stuff when I was in town. That's a great feature to remember.

 

The only thing I didn't like about it was the gender requirements on it. I'd've rather if the NPCs just reacted differently if you wore the opposite thing. Not a big deal, though.

[Grand_Commander13]

By that logic we should put some penalties on magical swords, because if we don't then no one would want to use normal swords...

 

Seriously. Plate is the best armor one can have. Period.

It should be the best armor in the game BY FAR. Period.

 

However, that doesn't mean a player will ever be able to equip a whole party with it. Plate armor has to be custom-fitted and is EXPENSIVE AS HELL.

That's a really nice summary. Also a really great mechanics suggestion: you can easily accomplish one of my criteria for limiting plate, by limiting how many you can buy, by forcing the good stuff to be custom-fitted to the person who it's for if there are only a few people who can make high-grade plate; just make them back-ordered and have them whip up a suit for you as a quest reward (likely at least one suit would be a reward option for a main quest).

 

Characters who still want plate can get the lesser munitions-grade plate, which is less protective and more restrictive; there can be a mobility trade-off between low-grade plate and your brigandine armor, but fitted plate? Again, our characters aren't our gear, it's okay if there's a "best" item to equip.