How to write the dialogs for cipher class?

[bronzepoem]

When I saw the intruduction of cipher, I was confused how to play such a character who can read others' mind. If my main PC have such ability, the story telling will be totally different. A small example:

Dialog 1

Panic woman: "Please help me! My husband fainted in that dark alley. I don't know what can I do!"

Paladin:"Dear lady,please don't worry.I will help your husband immidately!"

 

Dialog 2

Panic woman:"Please help me! My husband fainted in that dark alley. I don't know what can I do!( Stupid advantager, I will trick you into the dark alley and rob you with my men.)"

Cipher:"Go to hell, damn robber!"

[You make 20 hurt to the panic woman with fireball. Her body smells like a Chrismas turkey.]

 

So Chipers can disregard most of conspiracy and lie. They can crash a normal plotline with a totally diifferent way.

I should say this ability will give us a pretty cool game experience. But will such a complex dialog writing be possible?Or OE will use another way to show cipher's ability? Will there be some kind of magic equipments that can avoid cipher's mind detecting,like Magneto's hemlet in X-MAN?

 

I can't remember were there any other RPGs have similar design. IMO, that will be a revolution on RPG dialog writing,If OE can do a creative job on the design of chiper.

Edited October 22, 2012 by bronzepoem

[Leferd]

Malkavian dialogue in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

[UncleBourbon]

While that is true, malkavians were balanced by the player not always being able to discipher the insight, and some other things. Knights of the Old Republic - both 1 and 2 - used the jedi mind powers as essentially a trained-only, class exclusive skill check, which I liked a bit. I also think Divnity II's mind read ability balanced well - you spent experience on each use, so you didn't just go around reading everyone's mind. I think a chance of successfully reading the targets' mind, and a chance that they noticed something would be better balanced. Also, these could be reduced as the cipher becomes more powerful, given he focuses on it.

[Giantevilhead]

Depends on how their telepathy works. What if ciphers don't actually read minds? What if they actually pull memories out of other people's minds? So when a cipher reads someone's thoughts, they basically steal those thoughts from that person and makes them forget. That would force you to be very prudent in how you use their telepathy.

[nikolokolus]

Somebody is letting their imagination run wild. The truth is we have no idea how the Cipher class will work in game. I highly doubt they will be true mind-readers ... or at least they won't be right off the bat.

[eimatshya]

It could be somewhat similar to paladins in Icewind Dale. I've been replaying that game with a paladin as the party spokesperson, and there have been a couple of times where evil people have tried to pass themselves off as wholesome individuals in conversation. However since the character being tricked is a paladin, and paladins can detect evil, I keep getting a dialogue option along the lines of "You cannot fool me, I see your evil aura." If anyone other than the paladin takes the dialogue instead, that option does not come up, and the party is deceived.

[bronzepoem]

Somebody is letting their imagination run wild. The truth is we have no idea how the Cipher class will work in game. I highly doubt they will be true mind-readers ... or at least they won't be right off the bat.

If they can't do this, they are not cool

[Amentep]

I think at *best* it might add additional discussion dialogues on use (akin to the "Speak to the Dead" spell in ARCANUM, but, you know, on living people) or similar to the Paladin scenario above.

 

I doubt the Cipher class will have extra dialogue as they mindprobe everyone in the world as I'd imagine that would just be too much.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Amentep

[Lurky]

Malkavian dialogue in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

 

Or Ventrue dialogue. Dominate had unique dialogue options, and it doubled as a combat ability too!

 

The Ventrue and Malkavian unique dialogues weren't free to use, either. You had to spend a bit of your resources to use them, and that resource wasn't regenerative. So it wasn't that cheap.

 

Seriously, insightful dialogue is cool, but Ciphers can manipulate other souls too (according to Update 15). I want the ability to do that in dialogue and in combat

Edited October 22, 2012 by Lurky

[USER47]

Well, Divinity 2 has mindreading, but it costs XP. So it makes you choose it only when you are suspicious etc. That's one of the many ways this could be done.

[NerdBoner]

Wind Adepts in Golden Sun can use telepathy on ANYTHING with a pulse... just saiyan'

 

/jrpgFag

 

 

anyway, i imagine a telepathy skill wouldn't be too hard on the main plot since any big bads would probably have magical/psychic/soul protecting power or items as needed....but this would add an interesting dynamic to small side quests and party interactions.

 

heh, i can already imagine characters, especially the sneaky ones, getting annoyed by this power.

[bronzepoem]

While that is true, malkavians were balanced by the player not always being able to discipher the insight, and some other things. Knights of the Old Republic - both 1 and 2 - used the jedi mind powers as essentially a trained-only, class exclusive skill check, which I liked a bit. I also think Divnity II's mind read ability balanced well - you spent experience on each use, so you didn't just go around reading everyone's mind. I think a chance of successfully reading the targets' mind, and a chance that they noticed something would be better balanced. Also, these could be reduced as the cipher becomes more powerful, given he focuses on it.

IMO, the biggest problem isn't balance, it's how far we can go on the design of chiper's ability,within necessary balance, of course.

Balance is easy to do, we can just limit the ability under a very low level, like eimatshya said, the simple dialogue design of paladin in Icewind Dale. But that's not cool, not exciting enough. I wish PE can have a really exciting class, a revolutionary design.

 

I wish we can have something like this:

 

Princess:" Welcome, brave advantger. Thank you for your great contribution to our country."

Paladin:"It's my pleasure, princess."

 

Princess:" Welcome, brave advantger. Thank you for your great contribution to our country.(this man is so attractive. I can hold my heart beating!)"

Paladin:"Forget those contribution. Would you mind have a drink with me tonight?"

[You wake up in princess' bedroom. There are many scratches on your back. -5 health.] :devil:

Edited October 22, 2012 by bronzepoem

[Calmar]

I guess you'll actively decide to use your mind-reading powers and if you do so, the target may become aware of your intrusion and react accordingly.

[Gyor]

I'm curious about what kind of laws are there to prevent random mind rapes, no government is going to give Ciphers a free hand thier people.

[fbdllite]

I think it'll be something along the lines of a spiritual compulsion check versus targets spiritual willpower. Depending on how they want to build up the system this could be rather difficult in all but the most mundane situations.

 

It could easily just be another form of the standard ethos, pathos, and logos checks. (Intimidate, coercion, etc)

[Umberlin]

Malkavian dialogue in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

 

That's a very good example for anyone familiar with the Malkavian knowledge of the unknown, and its lovely application in Troika's Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Of course they could fall back on outright insanity to help keep things shadowed, that they didn't want revealed yet with the Malkavian. I imagine it's a much harder task when considering a wholly sane protagonist.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Umberlin

[Darth Trethon]

I'd play along and kill them all. That's probably the best thing to do...that way none would ever be fooled by them. I'd leave the woman for last so that she has the time to regret what she has done before dying.

[Heresiarch]

Malkavian dialogue in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

 

That's a very good example for anyone familiar with the Malkavian knowledge of the unknown, and its lovely application in Troika's Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Of course they could fall back on outright insanity to help keep things shadowed, that they didn't want revealed yet with the Malkavian. I imagine it's a much harder task when considering a wholly sane protagonist.

 

It's not the best example, since the Malkavian in VtMB is not reading minds. It is more like receiving information through the madness network. But even so the Malkavian protagonist's profound knowledge of what is really going on is inexplicable at times.

 

However, it's always good to have checks and social skills for understanding true motives of other characters. Playing a genre-savvy protagonist is always fun. If ciphers are better at it than the other classes, it's no big deal.

[Umberlin]

Malkavian dialogue in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

 

That's a very good example for anyone familiar with the Malkavian knowledge of the unknown, and its lovely application in Troika's Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Of course they could fall back on outright insanity to help keep things shadowed, that they didn't want revealed yet with the Malkavian. I imagine it's a much harder task when considering a wholly sane protagonist.

 

It's not the best example, since the Malkavian in VtMB is not reading minds. It is more like receiving information through the madness network. But even so the Malkavian protagonist's profound knowledge of what is really going on is inexplicable at times.

 

However, it's always good to have checks and social skills for understanding true motives of other characters. Playing a genre-savvy protagonist is always fun. If ciphers are better at it than the other classes, it's no big deal.

 

True but it suffers from a lot of the same design issues, that essentially being, "They know more than other characters, how do you address this?" Malkavian dialogue managed to do that, because it often relied on the Malkavian's gibberish making you work your brain for the detail - sometimes. Given I've seen few games bother, at all, let alone that much, it seems as good a starting point as any. It could easily have been not a lot of fun to play if they'd done it wrong . . . but . . .The Malkavian potentially having access to more information didn't really make them unfun to play, nor did it give them advantage beyond the other Clans. It was, as it should be, mostly flavor, with some dementation options sprinkled about that had actual effect, and not just flavor.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Umberlin

[lordgizka]

All we know at this point is that ciphers are going to be "like psionics" ability-wise, but use their own and others' souls to fuel their powers. And we have no idea about what souls are, even, in this setting. From a practical perspective though, if ciphers were going to have unique dialogue, we would hear about it by now. Quiet a huge feature, this.

[NerdBoner]

All we know at this point is that ciphers are going to be "like psionics" ability-wise, but use their own and others' souls to fuel their powers. And we have no idea about what souls are, even, in this setting. From a practical perspective though, if ciphers were going to have unique dialogue, we would hear about it by now. Quiet a huge feature, this.

not really, this game is in pre-production... and considering Ciphers were a stretch goal unto themselves (lol Barbarians, yeah, there's a class that's hard to implement) I would think certain funds/time would be allocated to their thorough and proper implementation.