Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

[void_dp]

What if some optional parts of the Endless Paths offered a point-of-no-return?

Yes, I am basically using the "well it's an option so if you don't like it don't use it"-argument against people that want an easy-to-access dungeon

And that is not an option for me because:

What an adventurer are you, when you go in the part of dungeon that you know cant be escaped, and there are known point of no return? You go there simply to get traped? Realy....answer on that - stupid dead anventurer

If there will be known point of no return, than i realy realy want obsidian make that such way so there realy is no exit. You come, fight your no exit dungeon kill the boss, and in the end you DIE THERE from hunger and no exit and go for new game.

This will be superb and right way to deal with such andventurers that go through known points of no return without backup plan but with hearts full of hope for obsidiadn to gift them second railway - exit at the end

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[Pope]

What if some optional parts of the Endless Paths offered a point-of-no-return?

Yes, I am basically using the "well it's an option so if you don't like it don't use it"-argument against people that want an easy-to-access dungeon

And that is not an option for me because:

What an adventurer are you, when you go in the part of dungeon that you know cant be escaped, and there are known point of no return? You go there simply to get traped? Realy....answer on that - stupid dead anventurer

This, my friend, is what separates the men from the boys.

 

And also because this is a game and I expect there to always be an exit.

[svartelric]

Nope. There's never a time when More Options are a bad thing. And You can call it "hand holding", and a product of the "modern era", or whatever, but dungeon exits at every level have existed in RPGs since like, forever. BG2's watcher's keep had them. Temple of Elemental evil, not only had exits on just about every level, but it also gave mages the Teleport Spell, so that they, and their entire party, could instantly exit the dungeon from anywhere in it.

 

I'm all for Teleport/Recall spells, it seems a much more reasonable way to leave the dungeon than having an exit on many levels of the dungeon; on the other hand, a secret shortcut or two to be discovered as part of the dungeon crawl seems like a good idea!

 

My idea is that a dungeon called the "Endless Paths" should be an immersive experience, if not an extreme challenge; it should be a flavour dungeon, rather than a Diablo grindfest (I'd hate to see things like that in PE, I don't even think that Diablo 1 should be considered a proper RPG - you play no real role, other than mashing buttons, and that is not my idea of game either).

 

Also, if multiple exits are made, I think they should not be a direct way out; instead, I would love to have an intermediate map, between the dungeon level and the world map.

 

How does that sound?

[Stun]

First, there's the issue whether to have an exit at every level.

In other words, we're now splitting hairs. There's no real difference between placing an exit at every level, vs. placing an exit every few levels. The thread starter (after a few pages of debate) has now said that the latter is a-ok! but the former is not.

 

Second, there's the issue of points-of-no-return.

 

Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)

[void_dp]

This, my friend, is what separates the men from the boys.

And also because this is a game and I expect there to always be an exit.

Sigh....

And just how can THIS be logical?

You know it is GAME, and EXPECT threre to ALWAYS be an EXIT. And you talk about your something that you call "immersing" and want something that grant you with no exit and some points of no return. Because exits ruin your immertion to something you know is GAME WITH EXITS.

Oh my...

 

really....just go 1 step deeper and just make yourself to ingore exits like usual your immersion feeling ignores your knowledge of exit which is always there.

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[Piccolo]

So basically you're in favor of a complete suspension of Logic, engineering basics, and consistancy of lore, in order for all players to be plot shackled and held prisoner in this dungeon once they enter it.

 

Because all of the above (logic, engineering basics, lore consistancy) necessitates that the bigger the man-made structure, the more exits it will have. Also, I really don't see the "hand holding" difference between putting an exit at every level, vs an exit at every few levels.

 

There's also Zero logic behind your latest suggestion of not having any exits at the top and middle but then suddenly having a bunch of exits near the bottom.

There you go again, trying to impose thoughts and opinions on me in a vain attempt to win the argument.

 

I'm in favour of plausible explanations for there being only two exits if it makes for a much more intense, ominous dungeon the player can't just hop in and out of at leisure.

 

I'm sure you're not completely devoid of an imagination, so I shouldn't need to provide reasons why an ancient dungeon that's been abandoned for many years might not have as many viable exits as it had when it was first constructed.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Piccolo

[Darji]

Seriously, you are just being ridiculous.

 

DONT USE THEM! No one is forcing you. You dont want to use them, fine, then dont. Simple as that.

Noone is going to force you to use them if they do please send them to me.

Everything rely on the players, are you really naive enough to think even if Obsidian wont include some exit/shortcuts, every player will finish it in one go and wont try to "cheat"?

 

There will be mods, console commands, trainers maybe even cheatcodes which can be used to exit Mega dungeon.

 

 

And about your link, try playing only with that(derp) face in Expert Trials of Iron mode.

 

This does not work. People will use the tools and features they come across does not matter if this could ruin the experience or not. Look at fast travel for example. Even when people say they will not use it for their first time 99% of them will use it at some point.

 

While I agree that there should not be an exit on every level. Maybe throw in a Boss every 3 or 5 levlels and than you can exit it after that. But not on every level.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Darji

[Piccolo]

Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)

How many times do I need to say, I'm not suggesting preventing the player from turning back and leaving through the inital entrance. Perhaps I didn't make that point clear in my original post, but i've stated it numerous times now throughout this thread. You even quoted me saying it on the previous page!

[Hassat Hunter]

Who says it will last 7 times as long?

Based on designs given, including comparrisons to IWD(2?) dungeons, levels and other data on BIS/OE dungeons, yeah, 7 sounds about right.

And even if it will be 7 times as long, who says it can't still be designed in a fun and interesting way?

Sure it can. But I rather they save that for another game, not as a side-quest of this game. I really don't want 30 hour sidequests... without having even a chance of break doing it! Assuming the mega dungeon lasts that short, which is extremely unlikely.

After escaping from the Asylum, the long journey home in chapter 5 - Brynnlaw -> ship -> sunken city -> Underdark areas -> Underdark exit - was a part of the game that had to be completed in that order before being able to go back to Amn. And it took many, many hours of player time to complete that journey (especially if you made good-aligned choices in the Underdark and were thorough). And it did not become boring at all, it was really cool.

As mentioned, it was just another city besides Athkatla, so the comparrison isn't entirely valid. Secondly, it was the main quest, not an optional sidequest, with all the plotforwarding that would hold. The dungeon? No plot forwarding. Third, YES, it did already drag on. So making it twice as long just for the heck of it? Well, I would have dropped the game. I actually already did several times during this section, only to return 3 months later. So, yeah, no, don't want to.

What makes you think that PE's Mega Dungeon (and the side-story associated with it) can not be designed in an equally fun and interesting way, that will make you enjoy spending many consecutive hours of gaming time to complete it from start to finish?

As much faith as I have in Obsidian, I don't have faith that they can pull of a 30+ hour dungeon raid being as high-class in RPG'ing as they are famous for. As much fun was having, say, the reversed time puzzle in IWD (was it 1 or 2?) I don't think stretching it out 10 times as long would have been good, no.

 

Just to clarify, I am NOT against a hard-core dungeon where you need to survive and make it through without getting merchants etc.

Just DON'T do it with the 15-level mega dungeon which will be a large part of the side-content and made due to us for ALL of us, not just 2% of the Kickstarter backers.

[Pope]

First, there's the issue whether to have an exit at every level.

In other words, we're now splitting hairs. There's no real difference between placing an exit at every level, vs. placing an exit every few levels. The thread starter (after a few pages of debate) has now said that the latter is a-ok! but the former is not.

 

Second, there's the issue of points-of-no-return.

 

Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)

Points taken.

 

Next suggestion then (we're getting there!):

Split up the dungeon in different segments, each with their own point-of-no-return and exit after completion. Include autosaves before entering.

[Stun]

 

I'm in favour of plausible explanations for there being only two exits if it makes for a much more intense, ominous dungeon

Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.

 

the player can't just hop in and out of at leisure.

And this is a straw man. Just about every single poster on this thread who has advocated exits at every level or almost every level has put forth the suggestion that these exits be either 1) guarded; 2) puzzled; 3) trapped; or 4) hidden. This rules out "hopping" and "leisure", doesn't it. So stop arguing against stances that no one here is taking.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[UncleBourbon]

My hope for the great optional dungeon would be that you may assemble a sort of expedition to follow a couple floors behind you to go into it, and you would try to convince people from all over (some recommending/helping others, some less popular) and that they couldn't really trade for you, but maybe help heal/break up the hack and slash. But I also think most of members would demand a portion of the treasure and such. I think this would also play into the difficulty aspect - make it so each additional NPC of the expedition takes a share of the rewards, and that this increases by each member of the trek. Maybe there is an NPC who knows how to activated/create some manner of teleporter to take you back through the dungeon, but s/he is hard/expensive to recruit, or maybe only recruitable if you do something - and even then, it only works so many floors in, or perhaps they can only build or activate one of them on the way down, making you decide which floor to place it on. I think these NPCs should have very limited trading ability - mostly barter or something for a fixed stock of goods that is being depleted. Perhaps there are certain chests or holdings of goods only made apparent once you beat the final boss of the dungeon or something, and it is that reward which the expeditioneers take a part of. This means a greater chance for the best loot if you go through and clear it yourself, and then later hire NPCs to dig and secure it, but also much harder.

 

Basically, this means a temporary camp, with limited goods and possibly some mini-quests a couple floors above you at all times. Maybe randomly occuring waves of enemies appearing if you rest for too long, or something. The supply chain for this expedition would assumedly be carried down with the individuals. Clearly, I favor the idea of an extended journey into this dungeon - I'm a fan of dungeon crawls. In most of the pen and paper crawls I've been part of, if we get to a stopping point/end of session, the DM is reasonable and basically allows us to clear a room, set up watch, maybe barricade/bar a door, and get some uncomfortable rest.

Edited October 18, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Stun]

Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)

How many times do I need to say, I'm not suggesting preventing the player from turning back and leaving through the inital entrance. Perhaps I didn't make that point clear in my original post, but i've stated it numerous times now throughout this thread. You even quoted me saying it on the previous page!

Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.

 

LOL

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[void_dp]

I was really sad when none of developers on stream happened to play ArxFatalis

This one dungeon complex game is great to get the feeling of what such megadungeon can become.

[Piccolo]

Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.

Occupied? You're kidding, right? We're talking about an ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries here.

[void_dp]

Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.

LOL

no no no, your forgot earthquake and collapsed exit after defeat of final boss. So no exit. Really. Sorry but you go and start new game.

[Chabneruk]

Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.

LOL

no no no, your forgot earthquake and collapsed exit after defeat of final boss. So no exit. Really. Sorry but you go and start new game.

 

I think we all saw the problem with Piccolos approach about 10 pages ago But we can discuss it for three more pages, because this thread needs at least as many pages as the dungeon will have levels. At least!

[void_dp]

Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.

Occupied? You're kidding, right? We're talking about an ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries here.

Who said that ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries by someone known, can't be occupied by some one unknown.

And really - another unlogical point - if it is not occupied, than you cant fight anyone there because it is empty.

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[Piccolo]

Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)

How many times do I need to say, I'm not suggesting preventing the player from turning back and leaving through the inital entrance. Perhaps I didn't make that point clear in my original post, but i've stated it numerous times now throughout this thread. You even quoted me saying it on the previous page!

Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.

 

LOL

It's only tedium if you're the kind of gamer who insists on carrying every last piece of loot out of the dungeon so they can sell it. Such gamers should not be pandered to with exits at every level. They're as bad as grinders who treat killing like an MMO, to gain XP.

 

The rest of us will pass through the dungeon once without backtracking.

[Stun]

Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.

Occupied? You're kidding, right? We're talking about an ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries here.

So.... It's empty? Void of living things?

 

 

Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.

 

LOL

It's only tedium if....

...The game forces the player to back track level after level.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[Piccolo]

Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.

Occupied? You're kidding, right? We're talking about an ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries here.

Who said that ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries by someone known, can't be occupied by some one unknown.

And really - another unlogical point - if it is not occupied, than you cant fight anyone there because it is empty.

Did you even read the description they gave for the dungeon? It's inhabited only by souls of plague victims and such. Not the living.

 

Same goes for you, Stun.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Piccolo

[void_dp]

So you want to go there to fight 15 lvls of some plague victims souls?

[Piccolo]

So you want to go there to fight 15 lvls of some plague victims souls?

I'm just telling you what the dungeon description said. It's been uninhabited by the living for centuries and is now only home to restless souls.

[Stun]

The Dungeon description actually says THIS:

 

http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/319868

 

In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

 

We have no idea yet what 'Strong Souls' are in PE. They could be undead. or they could be something else entirely.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[void_dp]

It was your argument for no occupied state of dungeon. And if you yourself believe this description than i cant think of anything but that your are some evil bully and like to go and fight the only inhabitants of dungeon the plague victims souls

Or that you also dont believe this "known to all" desription, and believe that dungeon is occupied, but in this case why this description is your argument in this topic if you dont believe in it yourself?

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp