Update #24: Less than 30 Hours to go! Life and Death, and Audio CD Soundtrack!

[Gatt9]

I'd just like to point out that over the last two pages, the complaint has shifted from "Combat is too punitive!" to "There aren't enough consequences for combat!"

 

I love gamers.

 

Oh god, you're right.

 

(1) No healz?! No rezzes, and possibility for maiming or permadeath?! WTF and with objective xp only, why bother with combat!

 

(2) OMG stamina bar regens in combat and classes can spam soul powaz to heal it? NERF

 

 

And this, folks, is why mechanisms shouldn't be discussed in a vacuum.

 

You should probably take some time to think this through. It's really not complicated, there's no mystery here.

 

Why do you think there's little healing and no resurrection? Because the intent of the system is to make sure you actively have to try to die. The auto-regenerating Health A bar is so that people don't have to "Rest spam" to regain spells, same thing as the cooldowns.

 

Everything here is being done so people don't have to press a little "Rest" button and wait 30 seconds, because some subset of Players rest after every battle.

 

Which means, we're now designing 3 systems (Healer class, regenerating health, spell cooldowns) around a subset of players who press the Rest button frequently and don't like pressing the Rest button.

 

So seriously, how is this anything but bad design being dictated by a subset of Players? Remember, before you answer, this is the very same path that lead us to modern "RPGs" where everything's fully voiced, dialogue is minimal, dice rolls are replaced by player skill, level scaling, and no exploration.

 

Because all of those things were dropped because a subset of players complained about them.

[Providence]

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

[MaximKat]

Which means, we're now designing 3 systems (Healer class, regenerating health, spell cooldowns) around a subset of players who press the Rest button frequently and don't like pressing the Rest button.

No, they're designing these systems because they think that it's ****ing stupid for a group of adventurers to rest for 8 hrs every 15 mins.

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

Edited October 16, 2012 by MaximKat

[Tale]

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

[Tamerlane]

Dude.

 

Don't fight the made up numbers.

 

FFT taught me that they're the most dangerous thing in the world.

[Providence]

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

 

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

 

Oh yeah, I'm probably assuming way too much when saying that rapid regeneration could mean that you replenish your stamina in 20 seconds if you're not taking any damage.

[curryinahurry]

I'd just like to point out that over the last two pages, the complaint has shifted from "Combat is too punitive!" to "There aren't enough consequences for combat!"

 

I love gamers.

 

Oh god, you're right.

 

(1) No healz?! No rezzes, and possibility for maiming or permadeath?! WTF and with objective xp only, why bother with combat!

 

(2) OMG stamina bar regens in combat and classes can spam soul powaz to heal it? NERF

 

 

And this, folks, is why mechanisms shouldn't be discussed in a vacuum.

 

You should probably take some time to think this through. It's really not complicated, there's no mystery here.

 

Why do you think there's little healing and no resurrection? Because the intent of the system is to make sure you actively have to try to die. The auto-regenerating Health A bar is so that people don't have to "Rest spam" to regain spells, same thing as the cooldowns.

 

Everything here is being done so people don't have to press a little "Rest" button and wait 30 seconds, because some subset of Players rest after every battle.

 

Which means, we're now designing 3 systems (Healer class, regenerating health, spell cooldowns) around a subset of players who press the Rest button frequently and don't like pressing the Rest button.

 

So seriously, how is this anything but bad design being dictated by a subset of Players? Remember, before you answer, this is the very same path that lead us to modern "RPGs" where everything's fully voiced, dialogue is minimal, dice rolls are replaced by player skill, level scaling, and no exploration.

 

Because all of those things were dropped because a subset of players complained about them.

 

I would encourage you to go and play Darklands and then come back to the forum and tell us how easy it is...because in my estimation (and pretty much anyone else who has played the game) its combat is much more punitive than in IE games.

[curryinahurry]

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

 

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

 

Oh yeah, I'm probably assuming way too much when saying that rapid regeneration could mean that you replenish your stamina in 20 seconds if you're not taking any damage.

 

Pretty much. Your also making a massive assumption about how much damage an Ogre might do. It might be possible that an Ogre, which might be 4x stronger than your PC, could easily drop you to 10% of your stamina; or knock you out completely if you're not armed with full plate and a shield.

[MaximKat]

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

How stupid of me, this must make your made up numbers so much better than my made up numbers...

[Cantousent]

I would encourage you to go and play Darklands and then come back to the forum and tell us how easy it is...because in my estimation (and pretty much anyone else who has played the game) its combat is much more punitive than in IE games.

Having played Darklands, I can attest to this. The combat in Darklands was far less forgiving than Dungeons and Dragons. I mean, folks could at least wait to see how the system works before making assumptions about it. I have played a system quite similar to this before, as Curry clearly has also, and it will be a lot harder than folks realize.

[Providence]

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

 

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

 

Oh yeah, I'm probably assuming way too much when saying that rapid regeneration could mean that you replenish your stamina in 20 seconds if you're not taking any damage.

 

Pretty much. Your also making a massive assumption about how much damage an Ogre might do. It might be possible that an Ogre, which might be 4x stronger than your PC, could easily drop you to 10% of your stamina; or knock you out completely if you're not armed with full plate and a shield.

 

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure combat will be at least as balanced as Arnanum's combat was...

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

How stupid of me, this must make your made up numbers so much better than my made up numbers...

 

I haven't made up anything. I reported a quote about automatic rapid regeneration of stamina in combat. And when I read the word "rapid", well... I read "rapid" and not "at a snail's pace".

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rapid

[curryinahurry]

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

 

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

 

Oh yeah, I'm probably assuming way too much when saying that rapid regeneration could mean that you replenish your stamina in 20 seconds if you're not taking any damage.

 

Pretty much. Your also making a massive assumption about how much damage an Ogre might do. It might be possible that an Ogre, which might be 4x stronger than your PC, could easily drop you to 10% of your stamina; or knock you out completely if you're not armed with full plate and a shield.

 

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure combat will be at least as balanced as Arnanum's combat was...

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

How stupid of me, this must make your made up numbers so much better than my made up numbers...

 

I haven't made up anything. I reported a quote about automatic rapid regeneration of stamina in combat. And when I read the word "rapid", well... I read "rapid" and not "at a snail's pace".

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rapid

 

Making a dismissive post about an unrelated game doesn't change the facts that your assumptions follow a narrative that frames your fear of the unknown. Like I told Gatt9, go play Darklands, educate your self on the system that is influential to the Project leader (and likely to others at Obsidian as well), and then comment on whether combat with such a mechanic is too easy or whatever other point you're trying to make.

[Providence]

Not that I don't like discussing made up numbers, but rapidly can mean anything faster than 1-2 per a 6s round.

 

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

 

Has Sawyer said anything about Stamina regenerating quickly

 

 

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance*, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

 

*now stamina

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

I mean, if rapidly isn't at least 5% per second then I think he's heavily misusing the word.

That's a mighty big assumption.

 

The worst assumption is that rapid means 3/5th the DPS of an Ogre.

 

Oh yeah, I'm probably assuming way too much when saying that rapid regeneration could mean that you replenish your stamina in 20 seconds if you're not taking any damage.

 

Pretty much. Your also making a massive assumption about how much damage an Ogre might do. It might be possible that an Ogre, which might be 4x stronger than your PC, could easily drop you to 10% of your stamina; or knock you out completely if you're not armed with full plate and a shield.

 

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure combat will be at least as balanced as Arnanum's combat was...

There won't be rounds, you could have learned that by now.

How stupid of me, this must make your made up numbers so much better than my made up numbers...

 

I haven't made up anything. I reported a quote about automatic rapid regeneration of stamina in combat. And when I read the word "rapid", well... I read "rapid" and not "at a snail's pace".

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rapid

 

Making a dismissive post about an unrelated game doesn't change the facts that your assumptions follow a narrative that frames your fear of the unknown. Like I told Gatt9, go play Darklands, educate your self on the system that is influential to the Project leader (and likely to others at Obsidian as well), and then comment on whether combat with such a mechanic is too easy or whatever other point you're trying to make.

 

Open a dictionary, which will be of more use to you than playing Darklands.

[Methuseleh]

I flat-out love the Darklands-style stamina system. Please keep KS open until I get home tomorrow night. I will up my pledge for all the cool stuff added, promise!

[curryinahurry]

 

 

Open a dictionary, which will be of more use to you than playing Darklands.

 

Nitpicking at definitions doesn't change the substantive issue that you are making massive assumptions of a system you don't understand and applying arbitrary definitions of mechanics without a suitable frame of reference. Even using the definition you provide, the key too which is, "short interval of time," there is little meaning without begging the question, "in reference to what?" A short interval of time can be 3 seconds or an hour depending on what you're trying to accomplish. The assertions you are making remain arbitrary because they are based on your personal narrative and related to a worst case scenario that may or may not exist. thus the cries of, "made up numbers." Does that make sense? Either way, I'm done...I've encouraged you to understand the reference within which the comment was made, if you elect not to do so, that is your problem.

[Volourn]

"The combat in Darklands was far less forgiving than Dungeons and Dragons. "

 

No, it isn't. Combat in ANY system is more or less forgiving based on the DM/developer. It's as hard or as easy as Obsidian decides to make it. The system itself won't decide that.

 

It's why you can play very easy DnD games and campaigns and very hard DnD games and campaigns. Same with Darklands style rules systems.

 

P.S. DnD also has rules systems that has the same sort of 'stamina and health' slash bars. It's not unqiue to Darklands at all.

 

P.S.S It has potential for coolness in PE to be sure if the combat is deisgned well.

[Cantousent]

"The combat in Darklands was far less forgiving than Dungeons and Dragons. "

 

No, it isn't. Combat in ANY system is more or less forgiving based on the DM/developer. It's as hard or as easy as Obsidian decides to make it. The system itself won't decide that.

Okay. Fair enough. I think you've got a point, which is why I think it's silly to worry about this system being too easy or hard until we can play with it first hand.

[curryinahurry]

"The combat in Darklands was far less forgiving than Dungeons and Dragons. "

 

No, it isn't. Combat in ANY system is more or less forgiving based on the DM/developer. It's as hard or as easy as Obsidian decides to make it. The system itself won't decide that.

 

It's why you can play very easy DnD games and campaigns and very hard DnD games and campaigns. Same with Darklands style rules systems.

 

P.S. DnD also has rules systems that has the same sort of 'stamina and health' slash bars. It's not unqiue to Darklands at all.

 

P.S.S It has potential for coolness in PE to be sure if the combat is deisgned well.

 

Not sure if you were paraphrasing me or not in the D&D quote, but I was specifically talking about IE games...Darklands had much tougher combat than IE games and you never had a trash mob problem because even rabble could be dangerous in numbers.

 

Other than that, your points are fine...I'm actually trying to remember if I played any other old RPGs that had similar mechanics. I'm thinking that I did but can't quite recollect.

[jvempire]

It's sad to see that some people here are trying to win arbtrary arguments. It shouldn't be whos right or wrong here, it should be about finding the best system for the game. People get more examples! Arguing over a system that is still in the idea phase can only go so far, with examples of good xp system from games we have a starting point of actual helpful discussion.

[Cantousent]

Not sure if you were paraphrasing me or not in the D&D quote, but I was specifically talking about IE games...Darklands had much tougher combat than IE games and you never had a trash mob problem because even rabble could be dangerous in numbers.

 

Other than that, your points are fine...I'm actually trying to remember if I played any other old RPGs that had similar mechanics. I'm thinking that I did but can't quite recollect.

lol Vol was quoting something I said, but you and I obviously share a real love for the Microprose title. I remember when Microprose was da bomb. Anyhow, Darklands was a superb game, but far from perfect. For one thing, it was buggy as hell. For another, the party spent a lot of time recovering from royal ass stompings, which is why I get frustrated by the 'it will be dumbed down or easy' arguments. The innovation of banking houses was great, but I can see it becoming confusing for some players. Still, it was a great game. I haven't played it in... fifteen, twenty years? I can't even remember when it came out. ...But I do wish that I could play it again. I really liked that, while you recovered, party members could earn money or improve skills.

[Meshugger]

Relevant to this thread:

 

Edited October 16, 2012 by Meshugger

[Badmojo]

Late to the party.

 

Ok first, necromancy is in, YEA!

 

XP reward by quest only. er, not sure, it has pros and cons. I like the idea, but not getting any xp for anything except the quest kind of takes away some of the fun. Still, it worked for bloodlines, but that was a very different type of game. Personally I think that there should be some type of reward/incentive to motivate you, but its not a deal killer.

 

The stamina/health...hmmm, lets just call stamina shield energy so its easier to understand. I have no probme with having a regenerating shield, what I DO have a problem is there is no magic/medicine that can heal, and the ONLY way to heal your health is to rest. Which from what I read, there will be *safe* resting areas (probably inns, campsites..etc) and non safe rest areas. I am not really happy with this, It sounds like your going to have to drag your party to these safe areas or all the way back to your inn/home just to heal, otherwise you will have to take a chance on these unsafe resting areas, in which if you fight a random encounter, you will not even get any XP for. I just cannot wrap my head around there being no healing in the game, no magic? No priest to healing gods? No medicine? noda? Honestly, this sounds like its going to be a pain and suck the fun right out. I HATE having to rest in games, it breaks up the pace, now we will have mandatory resting.

 

This will pretty much kill deep exploring for me, do I explore an area and maybe find some loot, but risk getting somebody hurt that I HAVE to drag back to a safe area so the bastard can heal by magically sleeping (time sink) it off? Oh, lets not forget respawning monsters I get to fight again for NO xp. It might not be that bad at first, but after a couple of dozen times, I am sure I will be ready to turn PE off and play something that doesn't make me want to smash the computer in.

 

The main question should be, is this fun? Going back and forth to rest/heal, does it feel FUN or does it feel like punishment/work? Lets not forget the mega dungeon, no healing potions and only being able to do the timesink healing all the way through...meh

[curryinahurry]

Not sure if you were paraphrasing me or not in the D&D quote, but I was specifically talking about IE games...Darklands had much tougher combat than IE games and you never had a trash mob problem because even rabble could be dangerous in numbers.

 

Other than that, your points are fine...I'm actually trying to remember if I played any other old RPGs that had similar mechanics. I'm thinking that I did but can't quite recollect.

lol Vol was quoting something I said, but you and I obviously share a real love for the Microprose title. I remember when Microprose was da bomb. Anyhow, Darklands was a superb game, but far from perfect. For one thing, it was buggy as hell. For another, the party spent a lot of time recovering from royal ass stompings, which is why I get frustrated by the 'it will be dumbed down or easy' arguments. The innovation of banking houses was great, but I can see it becoming confusing for some players. Still, it was a great game. I haven't played it in... fifteen, twenty years? I can't even remember when it came out. ...But I do wish that I could play it again. I really liked that, while you recovered, party members could earn money or improve skills.

 

 

Yes agreed; there were great and tedious things about the game; not including the demon bug I had that foiled 10 straight attempts at crashing a black sabbath after wandering around aimlessly til I got the correct clues! Honestly, I'm just really excited that we're getting a game that is pulling inspriation from Darklands but I certainly expect Obsidian to only to take what makes sense within their new system.

 

Btw, I really enjoyed the resting and recuperation mechanic, but I think many gamers would find it tedious.

[JanJansen]

Late to the party.

 

Ok first, necromancy is in, YEA!

 

XP reward by quest only. er, not sure, it has pros and cons. I like the idea, but not getting any xp for anything except the quest kind of takes away some of the fun. Still, it worked for bloodlines, but that was a very different type of game. Personally I think that there should be some type of reward/incentive to motivate you, but its not a deal killer.

 

The stamina/health...hmmm, lets just call stamina shield energy so its easier to understand. I have no probme with having a regenerating shield, what I DO have a problem is there is no magic/medicine that can heal, and the ONLY way to heal your health is to rest. Which from what I read, there will be *safe* resting areas (probably inns, campsites..etc) and non safe rest areas. I am not really happy with this, It sounds like your going to have to drag your party to these safe areas or all the way back to your inn/home just to heal, otherwise you will have to take a chance on these unsafe resting areas, in which if you fight a random encounter, you will not even get any XP for. I just cannot wrap my head around there being no healing in the game, no magic? No priest to healing gods? No medicine? noda? Honestly, this sounds like its going to be a pain and suck the fun right out. I HATE having to rest in games, it breaks up the pace, now we will have mandatory resting.

 

This will pretty much kill deep exploring for me, do I explore an area and maybe find some loot, but risk getting somebody hurt that I HAVE to drag back to a safe area so the bastard can heal by magically sleeping (time sink) it off? Oh, lets not forget respawning monsters I get to fight again for NO xp. It might not be that bad at first, but after a couple of dozen times, I am sure I will be ready to turn PE off and play something that doesn't make me want to smash the computer in.

 

The main question should be, is this fun? Going back and forth to rest/heal, does it feel FUN or does it feel like punishment/work? Lets not forget the mega dungeon, no healing potions and only being able to do the timesink healing all the way through...meh

 

Did you not play the same Infinity Engine games I did? You had, at least until high levels, very limited healing. Part of the idea of stamina is so you won't have to rest after every fight!

[Tamerlane]

Relevant to this thread:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8kUgHsKWJc

Oh, God. The memories. The memories!

 

Tamerlane's Off-Topic Time:

 

The "Mitchell" episode of MST3k. Saw it for the first time this summer. I was working up in northern Alberta planting trees. Hard god damn work. Rain, sun, snow, hail... through clouds of mosquitoes and black flies, never knowing when you're going to stick your hand in a wasp nest, carrying 30-50lbs of trees through swamps and up mountainsides, jamming your shovel into rocks. A few cents for every tree you planted. Painful god damn job; every part of your body hates you for it. It's damn near physically impossible to eat enough calories to sustain yourself in the long term. The middle and ring fingers on my right hand still claw up in the morning.

 

Nights off wasted on drinking. Days off spent lounging about in the sun or hiding in tents from the rain. Playing boardgames or huddled around a powerbar with a half-working laptop playing Mystery Science Theater and The Mighty Boosh. We spent the rest of that damn season singing the "Mitchell" song the robots created to each-other. Scrambling around in grass over your head in 35 C heat (and God only knows the humidity), shirt completely saturated in sweat ten minutes in to the day... **** somehow becomes a bit more bearable when your water break gets interrupted by a coworker stumbling up to you singing, "Heart pounding/Veins clogging/Mitchell!"

 

...

 

Also, yay for no resurrection magic.