good and bad from Arcanum

[Grape_You_In_The_Mouth]

Everyone should be using Leonidus' balance mod, btw

[forfs]

Arcanum seems like a great game, unfortunately for me it's broken because of music... It seems incredible, but I installed my copy of Arcanum about 5 times, and never got to play it longer than 5 hours with the longest play session lasting about an hour before I fall asleep. Nothing in this world has been able to bore me as much as Arcanum music, and mind you I had to read 200 page book on machining during my studies. I tried muting it and playing another music with another program in the background, but it doesn't work for me, music doesn't change with combat etc... 

[jamoecw]

 

Exploration.

Yeah, it's fun to travel the world map... but really.. you don't know where any of the towns is? Neither does almost anybody else.

Even in the capital city of Tarant, there's no maps of any kind to be found? Maybe one person in each town who can tell where another town is,

despite there being a railroad and ships all about. Maybe I could at least try to follow the rail tracks maybe? Come upon them in the wilderness?

I could've sworn that, very early in my playthrough, I spoke to someone, who then marked the location of a big city on my map (didn't see it there before they described where it was in dialogue).

 

The only thing I hate about exploration in Arcanum is that, just in trying to travel to even Shrouded Hills from the Crash Site, you can potentially bump into anything from like level 1 pansy wolves to level 5 kill-you-in-one-hit enemies. I'm all for the randomness of weaker/tougher foes, but, especially where you HAVE to world-map-travel merely to progress the narrative, the range of potential toughness of the foes you can encounter shouldn't be quite so great.

 

if you have the patients i would advise walking it if you are worried about random encounters, pretty much nothing in between, though i see that as a game flaw (random encounters should scale at least in part with your level so you don't get ****ed, and the wilderness should have random enemies, and thus it should be safer to travel a necessary but dangerous route via auto travel).

 

and ya, 1 person can tell about 1 city in shrouded hills, likewise in that city, so forth and so on, creating a linear route of exploration kinda (even if it isn't technically a line).

[Jarmo]

Unscaled random encounters were/are one of the things I liked.

 

Crash site to shrouded hills - you're probably ok unless you get unlucky.

Shrouded hills to tarant - maybe 50/50 chance or less of making the run without getting killed by something overly large.

 

It's a dangerous place and the game makes a good job conveying that.

Later on, the random encounters are just a nuisance, now you are the dangerous one and the game makes it apparent.

 

Oh. One more thing I love we're not going to see again any time soon!

Being able to actually rob stores. Not just grab a random pile of cash worth nothing, but grab that awesome magic sword you cant afford!

Awesome!! Breaks the economy like yesterdays sweat pants, but totally, completely awesome!

[Michael_Galt]

Well, on that note, I also liked how some stores had guards that stayed on duty during the night, some shopkeepers had traps on their chests, and in general, you couldn't just follow one strategy to be successful at that.

 

Also, something I think that no one has mentioned is that you could legitimately use gambling in the game to become rich.  That was one of my first characters, actually.  You could do it in FO:NV to some extent, but were essentially limited to using your skill in Vegas itself.  Additionally, you were limited by how much you could win, so it was not something you could use infinitely.

[Lephys]

Unscaled random encounters were/are one of the things I liked.

 

Crash site to shrouded hills - you're probably ok unless you get unlucky.

Shrouded hills to tarant - maybe 50/50 chance or less of making the run without getting killed by something overly large.

 

It's a dangerous place and the game makes a good job conveying that.

Sure, but to what effect?

 

"You literally need to travel across this map to this other city, in order to progress the game in any capacity, and yet, there's a 50/50 chance you'll confront something that you have no chance of beating or even fleeing from."

 

I think there's not much point in conveying the danger in such a manner if the game doesn't also afford you a "be careful" option, to either take or neglect. For example, if there was a guarded wagon to take between the first few cities, for a cost, versus just huffing it for free but being exposed to scary, deadly things, that would make a lot of sense.

 

But, to just have a 50/50 chance of basically wasting your time, and nothing you can really do about it (except, as jamoecw pointed out, avoiding the map's fast travel and spending 7,000 years traveling), that' s a bit silly. You might as well just have the characters roll dice every 5 minutes, to see if lightning strikes everyone dead, even inside of buildings. "HAH! The world is a dangerous place! No matter what! MUAHAHAHAHAHA! I don't know what the lesson is here, except FRUSTRATION!"

[Jarmo]

Yeah, I'd prefer there was a way to travel safely between cities, even cities the plot doesn't take you to yet.

Coach or caravan would be just great.

-----

 

Anyway, finished the game. Pretty awesome all in all.

 

In the end, I could have used a bit more hand holding.

Never managed to find the guy I was going to meet in the inn in the beginning,

and later, when Virgil took off, never managed to run into him again either, guess I was supposed to, but didn't.

 

What's good, is the stuff that was left undone and the quests that broke down, didn't stop me from going forward and finishing.

 

And now I started it again, I'll try to avoid the main plot this time, see if I can find the towns regardless.

The last character was melee/magic half elf, this time I'm going to try out those schematics.

 

Should also try a slightly evil mage to get the other companions and stuff.

 

Not sure if I'll finish the game a second time, but I think the "free play" is more fun now I know how to play...

Edited September 7, 2013 by Jarmo

[Jarmo]

Oh, just noticed a villager also could put Dernholm in my map (though after getting a ghost mine quest involving dernholm),

and the smith pointed out Tarant, so it's not quite as linear as I thought, which is good.

[quechn1tlan]

Arcanum seems like a great game, unfortunately for me it's broken because of music... It seems incredible, but I installed my copy of Arcanum about 5 times, and never got to play it longer than 5 hours with the longest play session lasting about an hour before I fall asleep. Nothing in this world has been able to bore me as much as Arcanum music, and mind you I had to read 200 page book on machining during my studies. I tried muting it and playing another music with another program in the background, but it doesn't work for me, music doesn't change with combat etc... 

o_O, well I guess there's no accounting for taste. I(alongside everyone I know who played the game), personally hold Arcanum's soundtrack to be a thing of amazing beauty. It's in my top 5 of game soundtracks of all time. Others being Deus Ex, Warhammer 40k DoW, Planescape Torment and combined soundtracks of BG, IWD and NWN as one(not in any particular order).

 

 

 

and later, when Virgil took off, never managed to run into him again either, guess I was supposed to, but didn't.

 

You actually wasn't. Steps to get Virgil back involve one of the most  un-obvious quests in the game and as such available to either people with great understanding of the game, or a walkthrough. Some may call it a downside, but I found it very rewarding when on one of the playthroughs I figured it all out. With a tech-character no less(it is much easier to get him back as a mage).

[Fearabbit]

@Jarmo:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe "free play" is not really possible in Arcanum because most of the cool locations are impossible to get to if you don't follow the plot. Caladon and the Elven cities for example. I remember checking every stupid harbor for a ship to Caladon, and the option simply isn't there.

Plus Tarant is much cooler after you come back from Caladon. Some very cool high-level quests. I really recommend following the main plot at least until you've been to Caladon.

 

By the way, I love the music, but sometimes it really brings you down. Melancholic strings in combination with desaturated colors and decaying buildings are basically the main reason I never stay in Cumbria for too long.

In general the atmosphere in Arcanum can be a bit depressing.

[Jarmo]

Yea, I think I'll have to plot forward a bit.

Quit the tech guy and started again with a slightly evil elven magic lady.

 

It's pretty neat to just harm-harm-harm to bits the annoying people standing in my way.

 

The music... it's great, but there's only so much of it and after 20 hours the constant strings start to get on your nerves a bit.

 

Free play... I'm not sure either.

Most of the locations, at least, are findable by just finding them on the map.

Not sure if this applies to the mountain crossing to elven lands and then the river crossing south from there and reaching caladon by land route..

[Michael_Galt]

Shops with restocking and changing inventories.

 

Basically a fine idea, but leads to frustration.

 

You need a specific gem type to make a pair of spectacles, if you already collected all the gems and sold them, you can't get them anymore.

This is despite the gem being "relatively common", it's not available in any shop in all of the world. And you can't get back to the island for no particular reason.

Luckily I had an older save, so I could go back and murder and loot the spectacle guy, I didn't want to, but I couldn't know if I'll ever find the gems otherwise.

 

Also.. I just finished an epic quest of finding a shovel.

The first two towns didn't have a single shovel in them, farming towns and all but not a single shovel to buy or steal.

(a funny thing, after finding a shovel from the capital I realized I had one already, just not in the inventory but in the quickbar). 

 

Other than that, it's great to visit shops and see if they have something new and interesting. Shopping in Arcanum is fun!

Exploration.

Yeah, it's fun to travel the world map... but really.. you don't know where any of the towns is? Neither does almost anybody else.

Even in the capital city of Tarant, there's no maps of any kind to be found? Maybe one person in each town who can tell where another town is,

despite there being a railroad and ships all about. Maybe I could at least try to follow the rail tracks maybe? Come upon them in the wilderness?

 

What I would give for a game, where you can actually say, "I want a _" to a shopkeeper, and you could get it.  Whether it is common, rare, or original.  As in, I want another set of full mail armor, as I bought your last set, but have another member of my group that doesn't want to wear splint mail anymore.  Or, could I get another Crossbow +1?  Or, "I would like a sword that does fire damage and is at the minimum, +2."  And then, the price would be calculated, perhaps you would have to wait for a period, but you could get it.  That would be grand.

 

Maps!!!  Yes, I would also LOVE these...  So, maybe you could find a really famous adventurer, or traveling scholar, and they could mark locations of potentially lucrative ruins on your map for a price.  Or, maybe you could go to a cartographer, that would provide you a detailed map showing all sorts of things the normal one doesn't.  Maybe having this resource would decrease your travel time and or chances of being ambushed... Or even increase how much rest you could get in the wilderness, as you could use a good map to find good places to camp during your travels...  Maybe you could hire local guides that would show you to possible ruins, or teach you shortcuts to get around the region surrounding their village/town/city.

[jamoecw]

 

Shops with restocking and changing inventories.

 

Basically a fine idea, but leads to frustration.

 

You need a specific gem type to make a pair of spectacles, if you already collected all the gems and sold them, you can't get them anymore.

This is despite the gem being "relatively common", it's not available in any shop in all of the world. And you can't get back to the island for no particular reason.

Luckily I had an older save, so I could go back and murder and loot the spectacle guy, I didn't want to, but I couldn't know if I'll ever find the gems otherwise.

 

Also.. I just finished an epic quest of finding a shovel.

The first two towns didn't have a single shovel in them, farming towns and all but not a single shovel to buy or steal.

(a funny thing, after finding a shovel from the capital I realized I had one already, just not in the inventory but in the quickbar). 

 

Other than that, it's great to visit shops and see if they have something new and interesting. Shopping in Arcanum is fun!

Exploration.

Yeah, it's fun to travel the world map... but really.. you don't know where any of the towns is? Neither does almost anybody else.

Even in the capital city of Tarant, there's no maps of any kind to be found? Maybe one person in each town who can tell where another town is,

despite there being a railroad and ships all about. Maybe I could at least try to follow the rail tracks maybe? Come upon them in the wilderness?

 

What I would give for a game, where you can actually say, "I want a _" to a shopkeeper, and you could get it.  Whether it is common, rare, or original.  As in, I want another set of full mail armor, as I bought your last set, but have another member of my group that doesn't want to wear splint mail anymore.  Or, could I get another Crossbow +1?  Or, "I would like a sword that does fire damage and is at the minimum, +2."  And then, the price would be calculated, perhaps you would have to wait for a period, but you could get it.  That would be grand.

 

Maps!!!  Yes, I would also LOVE these...  So, maybe you could find a really famous adventurer, or traveling scholar, and they could mark locations of potentially lucrative ruins on your map for a price.  Or, maybe you could go to a cartographer, that would provide you a detailed map showing all sorts of things the normal one doesn't.  Maybe having this resource would decrease your travel time and or chances of being ambushed... Or even increase how much rest you could get in the wilderness, as you could use a good map to find good places to camp during your travels...  Maybe you could hire local guides that would show you to possible ruins, or teach you shortcuts to get around the region surrounding their village/town/city.

 

someone made a mod for mount and blade (the original) back when it was beta, and you could browse every weapon in the game, and tell the merchant to get it for you, you pay a price and then come back a couple of weeks later and pick it up, very awesome mod.  running around looking for a specific weapon or piece of armour gets old fast, more games need to do something like this (one of the reasons i like crafting so much in rpgs).

[Jarmo]

 someone made a mod for mount and blade (the original) back when it was beta, and you could browse every weapon in the game, and tell the merchant to get it for you, you pay a price and then come back a couple of weeks later and pick it up, very awesome mod.  running around looking for a specific weapon or piece of armour gets old fast, more games need to do something like this (one of the reasons i like crafting so much in rpgs).

 

 

There's a weaponsmith and armorsmith system available in M&B:With Fire and Sword where you can order some very expensive, best in the game items.

But that actually has a surprising downside. Once you equip with the stuff, you know you're not going to find anything better because there is nothing better.

 

This immediately takes out all the fun in shopping and looting. "Nope, nothing good found this time either, and there never will be again."

 

Despite this though, yeah. There should be a system for ordering up the highest quality items available, through whatever channel you have access to.

Maybe you could put out a call for some specific kinds of items, and maybe you'd find them, or something similar.

 

And maybe there'd be a reverse call for the real neat holy mace you found from the tomb? At +100% markup over the "going rate", too good to pass?

[Yonjuro]

 

But that actually has a surprising downside. Once you equip with the stuff, you know you're not going to find anything better because there is nothing better.

 

This immediately takes out all the fun in shopping and looting. "Nope, nothing good found this time either, and there never will be again."

 

 

 Agreed.

 

 

 

Despite this though, yeah. There should be a system for ordering up the highest quality items available, through whatever channel you have access to.

 

 

 

 I see the appeal but I really don't like this idea. For me, a big part of the fun is finding the items that help your party. When you literally never find anything useful (because it's always inferior to what you can buy at the corner blacksmith shop), that detracts from the game. Items you find are then no different from finding gold (except that you have an extra step to turn them into gold with which you buy the item you really want).

 

 Even when there is no randomized loot and you're on your Nth replay of a game, you have strategic considerations e.g. in BG2, after you've done it once, you know that going to the guarded compound in the temple district will yield Celestial Fury after a hard fight. If you were playing as a solo Swashbuckler, you might like to get it as soon as you can figure out a way to win that fight whereas a solo monk might not bother because by the time you can win that fight you don't need the sword anymore (<--not really true if running away a lot is part of the game plan, but I digress). Anyway, it adds replay value to the game.

 

 

 I think if you went down the street to Katanas 'r' Us to buy CF (or to Quarterstaves 'r' Us for the Staff of the Magi for a more extreme example) whenever you have the money (that you, presumably, got as a side effect of XP farming diseased gibberlings ), then something is lost from the experience.

[Lephys]

I see the appeal but I really don't like this idea. For me, a big part of the fun is finding the items that help your party. When you literally never find anything useful (because it's always inferior to what you can buy at the corner blacksmith shop), that detracts from the game.

Agreed. I know they're kinda set up that way for reasons, but I think that's one of the biggest detriments to games like Diablo and Borderlands. You have to find about 100 weapons before you actually find one that's significantly better than the last good one you found. In Borderlands, especially, you even keep getting all these specific quest reward ones, and, in my experience, they're almost ALWAYS blatantly worse than what I've already just happened upon randomly. It just feels like you might as well simply be finding piles of money, and being rewarded for quest completions with more piles of money. Then, once every hour or two, you actually find something that's slightly better than what you had, and it ACTUALLY affects your gameplay and makes you feel like you've made progress in the equipment/loot department.

[Yonjuro]

..., you even keep getting all these specific quest reward ones, and, in my experience, they're almost ALWAYS blatantly worse than what I've already just happened upon randomly. It just feels like you might as well simply be finding piles of money, and being rewarded for quest completions with more piles of money. Then, once every hour or two, you actually find something that's slightly better than what you had, and it ACTUALLY affects your gameplay and makes you feel like you've made progress in the equipment/loot department.

 

 Yup, and completely unlike real life, finding piles of money is not awesome. 

[Michael_Galt]

Well, I don't think you should be able to buy "epic" equipment almost at all- if it is one of a kind, there should only be one place you can find it, and if it is "in a store" (buyable), then it should be exceedingly expensive.  The idea should be that you CAN buy some epic equipment, but if you do, it will cost you a "King's ransom", so it would still be more "economical" to find similar things through regular questing or dungeon-crawling.  I am talking everything short of that. So, not "Crom Faeyrs" (not sure of spelling), but swords of fire +2, regular equipment, various common gems, shovels, things like that.

[Jarmo]

 Despite this though, yeah. There should be a system for ordering up the highest quality items available, through whatever channel you have access to.

Maybe you could put out a call for some specific kinds of items, and maybe you'd find them, or something similar.

 

I realize I phrased this badly.

I didn't mean you should get the highest quality items at any time,

but the highest quality items you're able to get through the procurement channel available to you.

 

So if you have acces to a local weaponsmiths store and he gets his stuff by forging it in his backyard,

you can order from him whatever he's capable of making, that being normal quality items.

He wouldn't have 75 different suits of armor on store, but he could make a set if you can wait a week.

 

If you have access to the royal armory, you could easily order up masterwork armor and weapons.

Probably you could also order enchanted items, similar to the standard equipment of kings guard.

Maybe up to +2 keen or holy stuff, the process involving whatever magic and priests are involved.

 

The absolute highest level +4 wyverns tail splatters would be only available through finding them.

 

This would mean you can keep your bec de corbin specialist in bec de corbins througout the game.

Not requiring huge loads of luck in getting the weapon you want. Not the absolute best, but good enough.

[Michael_Galt]

Yes, that is pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  Similar to in many RPGs, where some smiths have some really good equipment [ie. the capability to acquire/make really good stuff], while others don't and never will, because they don't have the suppliers or ability.  I can remember how long I had to look for a greatsword +2 in BG1, for instance, while I found tons of people making daggers +1, longswords +1, etc.  Am I to believe that they can't just make me a greatsword +1? 

[jamoecw]

in the original M&B when the mod was made (in beta) the best stuff in game was only found at merchants and it was rare and expensive, but random.  so you would get the money and then run around to the different shops looking for a great helm or a charger or some such.  you'd go to one and then another, then another, so on and so forth all in a big cycle until you found it, just hours of traveling.  so telling someone what you want and paying for them to get it was great.

 

in BG not every merchant had unlimited +1 bullets, so if you needed more then you had to find a merchant that had some, wouldn't it be nice to ask someone where to get them and have a quest to go to some smith or something.  what if you wanted another full plate suit?  couldn't you ask someone for it and have them generate a quest for you to go off somewhere to secure some smith's services or some decent iron or something.

 

things made with forgotten lore i can see, and those things should be rare, but mundane for the world seem like something you should be able to get somehow, and not just randomly.

[Jarmo]

 

and later, when Virgil took off, never managed to run into him again either, guess I was supposed to, but didn't.

 

You actually wasn't. Steps to get Virgil back involve one of the most  un-obvious quests in the game and as such available to either people with great understanding of the game, or a walkthrough. Some may call it a downside, but I found it very rewarding when on one of the playthroughs I figured it all out. With a tech-character no less(it is much easier to get him back as a mage).

 

 

Ah, figured it out with my Elven sorceress playthrough. And I'd have figured it out on the first playthrough as well, only I was in "modern RPG" mindset and expected major plot twists to be settled just by following the main plot. He did mention a dead friend and I did have the old newspaper which actually told where to find Virgil, just didn't see I was supposed to start searching.

 

Saved the day as well! High charisma master persuader mage, there isn't no bandit mob can survive many seconds when the cavalry consists of Sogg, Torian, Vollinger, that Dark elf Sorceress (who is worthless in combat) and Worthless Mutt (who is anything but, a bit of a cheat actually what with 100+ points of bite damage in a round).

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jarmo

[Jarmo]

One more.

 

It took 2 playthroughs before I realized you can actually use the subway in Tarant.

Because it wasn't obvious to me where you had to click, thought it was just a flavor and ambience thing.

[BillyCorgan]

I'm ashamed but i have never exceeded two hours of play...

But I'm sure it's a good game... but even then it was already so ugly and complex...

[Jarmo]

 

I'm ashamed but i have never exceeded two hours of play...

But I'm sure it's a good game... but even then it was already so ugly and complex...

 

 

Took me a year, two failed attempts and Avellones video before I gathered enough fortitude to go forth.

The first try I gave up on the crash site, the second on the first village. The combat was just too horrible. (better on turn based mode)

 

The ugly barrier took a real effort, but when I reached the big city (Tarant) I was already adjusted and the scenery is better there.

All these old ones, real hard to get into nowadays.