Alignments

[JFSOCC]

I'm wondering if alignments will make an appearance, they certainly have in the past with games strongly linked to DnD.

let me be blunt, I hope not. I think it's a very poor way to characterize. "that man is acting evil because of his alignment" it's just ridiculous.

I think you can do away with them entirely, especially if you want (as you seem to claim in the kickstarter video) to have more mature themes and dialogue.

I think we're quite capable of seeing complex moral issues without seeing a prefix of "lawful-neutral" on a character.

 

my two cents.

 

Edit: sorry, apparently it was answered already. I did run a search before posting my question.

Edited October 12, 2012 by JFSOCC

[HumanFlesh+5]

i always liked alignments in past games, but i don't think it will fit the game mechanics of PE very well. because alignments always predestinate your decicions in a way, which makes the gameplay kind of limited.

[Sensuki]

There will be no alignments in Project Eternity, it will be a faction reputation system like Fallout: New Vegas (which I haven't played).

[Tale]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

[teknoman2]

i sure hope not. i prefer to keep it strictly action - reaction based so i can make things the way i want, without a stat that predetermines and limits my options.

[HumanFlesh+5]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

 

this sounds like there will be nothing like charisma..

[Ieo]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

 

this sounds like there will be nothing like charisma..

 

Interactions could be layered. Stats can matter, but it's off-putting when stuff is locked out completely because you were 1 point shy of the dialogue trigger. The reputation system can help a lot with this.

 

For example, if you're the awkward type and was accidentally misinterpreted by someone, you could earn enough reputation through actual deeds so the person would be ready to talk to you again. Something like that.

[ogrezilla]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

 

this sounds like there will be nothing like charisma..

how so?

[Fluffle]

"

Steve: Can you talk a little about the reputation system which you are developing? How will you handle cause and effect in the wider world of Project Eternity?

 

Feargus: Our reputation system will be similar to what players may have seen in Fallout: New Vegas. As you interact with people in the world, you start to generate a variety of reputations, positive and negative, with the world’s factions and communities. The system tracks both good and bad impressions, so if you save a basket of kittens from a burning house and later punch an old lady in the face, your reputation in that community is not “neutral”, it’s “mixed”.

People from those communities will react to you based on your reputation, but it isn’t always a case of “positive rep” = “good times”. Sometimes being disliked by one group may actually cause another group to approach you favourably. And being liked by a group may result in their enemies coming after you — even if you’ve never done anything to harm them directly."

 

Taken from: http://www.overclockers.com/kickstarter-and-game-development-highlighting-games-coming-to-linux-part-1

[HumanFlesh+5]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

 

this sounds like there will be nothing like charisma..

how so?

 

just a bad gut feeling ...

[Piccolo]

No, and thank god. Having a reputation system is so much better.

[Loranc]

I actually enjoyed the reputation system in new vegas 'when it worked'. There were a lot of bugs with the system and the game in general. I'm assuming those things will and should have mostly been worked out by now. But I do remember having a couple of issues with that faction stuff in new vegas.

[Tale]

just a bad gut feeling ...

Baldur's Gate had reputation. It had alignment, too, but it wasn't an implementation that adjusted for actions.

[Loranc]

just a bad gut feeling ...

Baldur's Gate had reputation. It had alignment, too, but it wasn't an implementation that adjusted for actions.

 

Yeah I remember baldur's gate alignments. 'I want to be a good guy! I'll go donate to the church! Wooo i'm lawful good now.

[Ieo]

just a bad gut feeling ...

Baldur's Gate had reputation. It had alignment, too, but it wasn't an implementation that adjusted for actions.

 

And neither of those things (reputation, alignment) had to do with character stats like charisma, so I don't know what HumanFlesh+5 is worried about.

 

(BG had no faction reputation, but PS:T did--mostly mutually exclusive too. That was nice. I haven't played FO:NV so I wonder what the difference is compared to PS:T.)

[Amentep]

just a bad gut feeling ...

Baldur's Gate had reputation. It had alignment, too, but it wasn't an implementation that adjusted for actions.

 

And neither of those things (reputation, alignment) had to do with character stats like charisma, so I don't know what HumanFlesh+5 is worried about.

 

(BG had no faction reputation, but PS:T did--mostly mutually exclusive too. That was nice. I haven't played FO:NV so I wonder what the difference is compared to PS:T.)

 

My experience with factions in FO:NV is that shooting people in the face is frowned upon*

 

I suspect there will be global factions and things; I wonder if there will be local factions (and whether people will belong to multiple factions).

 

*Oddly, Ceaser's Legion frowned upon this even when the CL guy I shot in the face told me to attack him if I didn't like what he was doing. Buncha hypocrites, if you ask me.

[Ausir]

Fallout: New Vegas has both Reputation and Charisma.

[AlphaShard]

Interviews have them state that there are no alignments. But there will be a reputation system tied to various factions.

 

this sounds like there will be nothing like charisma..

how so?

 

just a bad gut feeling ...

 

Fallout has always had charisma so if they are modeling it like that I think Charisma would play a BIGGER role then it did in the IE games. Charisma could be overshadowed by your Alignment in the IE games, not that way in the FO games.

[nikolokolus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Gary Gygax's single worst contribution to the RPG hobby was the invention/inclusion of a rigid alignment system. It's reductive, it hinders organic character growth or change in the course of a game (talking PnP here) and it's mostly just nonsense.

[Amentep]

But without alignment, why would you cast "Protection from Evil" or "Protection from Chaos"?

 

I'll be honest we never cared much about alignment when we played D&D unless you were playing a Paladin or clearly doing Evil/Good while playing a Good/Evil character.

[Ieo]

Fallout has always had charisma so if they are modeling it like that I think Charisma would play a BIGGER role then it did in the IE games. Charisma could be overshadowed by your Alignment in the IE games, not that way in the FO games.

 

Well, BG's CHA had minimal effect, but PS:T was a whole other ball game.

 

Since there's no alignment in PE, thankfully, and given what the devs have said so far (stat-lockout was pretty bad in PS:T when you were playing any other class but mage), we might expect interactions to react based on these--

 

reputation > race/culture > stat

race/culture > reputation > stat

reputation > stat > race/culture

race/culture > stat > reputation (doubtful?)

 

I think stats will still matter, but I doubt Obsidian would overshadow reputation or any of the other character variables with a stat due to the lockout problem (e.g. if you're a fighter, it makes little sense to spend points in CHA/INT/WIS for dialogue, so you'll miss out--otherwise maybe they'll include interaction variables for the other stats, which may not make sense for the world).

 

But back to topic. No alignment. Huzzah!

 

Faction reputation -- I hope there are different opportunities and situations arising between "joining" a faction and merely having high reputation.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Ieo

[Hagen]

Whenever someone brings up alignments, I think of that entry in the "Real men, real roleplayers, loonies and munchkins" list.

 

Real men are lawful good.

Real roleplayers don't use alignment.

Loonies are amoral silly.

Munchkins are whatever gives the most plusses.

 

Ancient humor aside, I agree with one of the lines above.

[JFSOCC]

it's the munchkin thing isn't it?

[TristanD]

We always used alignments as a starting point for characters in D&D, but they were fluid depending on players actions. Generally the only penalties for changing alignment were due to falling out of favor with your deity or not being able to use an item that had alignment based restrictions. Factions definitely had a bigger effect in our old Pen and Paper games.

[Gatt9]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Gary Gygax's single worst contribution to the RPG hobby was the invention/inclusion of a rigid alignment system. It's reductive, it hinders organic character growth or change in the course of a game (talking PnP here) and it's mostly just nonsense.

 

It defines the Character's overall personality, allows the DM to design his campaigns without having to try to account for every possible variation, and defines roleplaying expectations.

 

Without it, you have a Character personality that is largely ad-libbed, inconsistent, and often ends up with the Character being an Avatar for the Player's personality rather than the Character being seperate. It largely starts entering LARPs land where the Player is the Character, rather than the two entities being seperate.

 

Further, it's hell for the DM, since he has no reasonable expectation of how any given event will play out, since now all actions are completely arbitrary. A Paladin can pee on an altar, because there's nothing that defines the Character's personality as an individual who would never do such a thing. Campaigns themselves rapidly become ad-libbed since the DM constantly has to deal with the random actions of players.

 

Finally, the system does readily permit alignment shifts over the course of a game, and includes rules for how to handle such events.

 

Alternative systems, such as Reputation systems, are plagued by far worse problems than a Alignment system. Since now you attach values to actions, you end up with utterly ridiculous situations, such as a town's hero suddenly killing nearly everyone and ending up with an neutral reputation. Or worse, the "Pay a fee to commit a crime" scenario, where you identify someone who has something you want, find a reputation sink in the town, kill the person and then go donate your reputation back up.

 

At it's very best, long term, all Reputation systems do is attach numeric values to the Alignment system. Someone who actually creates a personality for their character, and follows the personality, ends up falling solidly into one of the Alignment brackets.

 

TBH, the only thing I've ever seen a Reputation system, or any other Alignment alternative do is facilitate people's desire to take arbitrary action and avoid consequences.