My fwiw kickstarter economic analysis regarding the rift between the traditionalists and evolutionists

[Infinitron]

Juvenile thread is juvenile.

 

What is the point of this post, metiman? You think you're helping this game by pigeonholing people into "factions", talking about "rifts" and making other generalizations?

 

All you're doing is putting people in a combative mood and reducing the chance of the Obsidian developers taking this forum seriously.

[max8472]

This discussion is a great non-sense for me.

 

The reality is, I suppose, that developers in the day of Baldur's Gate had the freedom to create what they wanted to do, and they DO IT. PE represent that same opportunity. They make the game for themselves, don't make it for the fans like an artist paint for himself. All that they want is creativity freedom. They now have that thanks to Kickstarter and it's all that matters to them. Fans could contribute of course but only to a certain degree. They never asked us if we wanted a 2D or 3D game (traditionalists/biowarians). So THEY are traditionalists, I suppose.

[NerdBoner]

Cooldowns Metiman, Cooldowns as far as the eye can see!

 

bet you can't wait huh?!

[Gorth]

I think I'll go on hunger strike until we get JA2 and X-Com3 quality combat (screw the IE games), complete with destructible terrain!

 

*sits down, sulks*

[Shades]

Well how about we make a deal? You can have your romances if I can have my BG2 style combat without any NextGen elements. What do you say? I don't think romances are the end of the world or anything. Actually I don't have a problem with romances that are actually part of the plot at all. I liked the whole Deionarra thing in PS:T very much. I just think romances as minigames are wasteful. But if they are optional and don't use up 90% of the game budget to write all that lovey dovey dialogue for them fine.

 

One thing: Have you actually seen what the combat is going to be like? If not, how can you tell whether it will be terrible or not? I have a huge dislike of cooldowns and don't really like the idea of not getting experience for individual kills, only quests instead. I admit I was a bit disappointed when I saw quotes confirming these things (I like wandering around the wilderness the BG way trying to kill everything and not end up dead) but... I'd like to think that Obsidian can make something decent out of it, that they know not to implement these things in ways that irritate everyone. They certainly have a vocal community here ready to let them know what they do and do not want.

 

I want romances certainly, (not as mini-games, simply as a continuation of the dialogue specific to each companion) however I'm not going to withdraw my pledge or anything simply because they aren't in the game. That being said though with such strong opinions on the subject I think it would be smart for Obsidian to say nothing about them until after the Kickstarter has finished.

 

Anyway, I was under the impression that perhaps a lot of people were maxed out on their pledges (I know I pledged up to the highest amount that I could without killing my bank account right away, probably one of the most expensive games I've bought But it'll be worth it), thus why we haven't seen a lot of movement (and why they're aiming towards more individual pledges rather than just more money). Though I guess that wouldn't explain why the total still continues to climb steadily. And there will be a number of people that will be waiting to increase their pledges until they see certain things, mostly mod support, some might feel the same about co-op, and there will be a number of other things that people will feel strongly about.

 

It will be interesting to see what difference the Paypal donations make to things, too.

[ddillon]

So... What's so bad about DA:O? (Aside from obvious gripes such as smaller party size, etc).

The controls are terrible (one player at a time in isometric mode, oh yay)

 

I'm not sure what you mean to say. I play DA:O on PC with a mouse and don't recall having any issues with the controls other than the lack of party formations. Could you give me an example of how it differs from IE games? (It has been a few years since I last played BG, BG2, IWD, etc).

 

The story is crap

 

I'd agree that it is lacking in certain regards, but I wouldn't call it crap. My gripes are aimed more at the writing and presentation of limited options than the overall story.

 

The combat is boring

 

Again, I'm not sure what you mean to say. How is it any more boring than the combat of IE games?

 

I thought Sten was a cool NPC though.

 

That's funny... I don't care for Sten.

Edited October 5, 2012 by ddillon

[Shaz]

Hrm. What am I?

I loved the BioWare games up through DA:O. Kinda liked ME2, did not enjoy DA2 or ME3 (hello understatement), but I still hold onto a bit of hope for DA3.

I'm currently re-playing PS:T. Happiness! Planning on some NWN2 next.

Turn based combat is great, but so is pause-n-play, which it seems we'll get. Combat is also far from the most important game aspect to me, but you seem focused on it.

I detest the extreme simplification and consolization that has been happening in the games I enjoy. Kickstarter allowing me to support what I want, instead of what game publishers think I want, has made me so very happy. Obsidian bringing back the game style I most enjoy has made me positively giddy. I don't want them to divert from the IE formula unless absolutely necessary. I expect they may have to somewhat, I just hope it's minimal and unobtrusive.

I love romances. Much more than that, though, I enjoy ALL forms of character interactions and getting-to-really-know-my-party members. I would love a 'best friendship' relationship just as much - if not more - than an actual romance.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but I really think it's far more than simply two factions.

My PE pledge consists of over 1/3rd of my entire monetary expenditure this year for game purchases... and I buy games regularly, and have far outspent my husband this year on games. I've backed 8 projects on Kickstarter, and my PE pledge is more than all the others combined, and I'm considering increasing it. So... I dunno where I fit on your scale. It's not in either of your two factions, though I would consider myself more Traditionalist (in the actual sense of the word) because New is definitely NOT Better.

[evdk]

I'm not sure what you mean to say. I play DA:O on PC with a mouse and don't recall having any issues with the controls other than the lack of party formations. Could you give me an example of how it differs from IE games? (It has been a few years since I last played BG, BG2, IWD, etc).

The horrible, confused list inventory (purge it with fire).

[Blarghagh]

All you're doing is putting people in a combative mood and reducing the chance of the Obsidian developers taking this forum seriously.

 

So by all means keep going. The less Obsidian takes this board seriously the better the game will be. No game has ever been improved by listening to the vocal minority.

[Rink]

I don't think the anti-Traditionalist or Biowarian or whatever you want to call it faction would be at all happy with combat mechanics that are uncomfortably close to those of BG2.

 

I don't think they care that much if the story is good and characters are well developed and there are enough additions to the existing systems. There are very few games that really try to break away from game mechanics of other games of the genre and if you really want that, you probably gave up on videogames long ago.

I don't think anything they will announce will have a high impact on pledges (never seen shorttimed drop of pledges on any kickstarterproject) at all unless they point at new people that they haven't reached yet. Most people will not really read the forums (atm 120 users here of 50000) or the long updates or the stretchgoals. So they can introduce things that reach and mobilise new people or undecided people or they introduce more rewards for some pledgelevels shortly before the campaign ends to get last minute generosity of the fans.

I wonder what groups they haven't reached yet, I think they planned it well and got it covered good with the (quite different) games they started their video with. Maybe women can be mobilised less good, but that was the same case for IWD and BG, I guess. Maybe romances would really help a bit there, or cute pictures of companions, or classes with animal companions :D Damn my ideas are cliché

Edited October 5, 2012 by Rink

[BruceVC]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

[Macbeth]

Maturity means your body has reached it's adult form. Maturity used to describe someones attitude towards an issues is subjective and a logical fallacy. Maturity is not equal to political correctness or mild-mannerism it just means you're biologically an adult. The pride you take in your own so called "maturity" is thus unimpressive.

 

That is not the only use or definition of the word maturity.

 

 

“Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate how a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive, and is not determined by one's age.”

 

Know what you are talking about before posting, thank you.

[metiman]

Hrm. What am I?

I loved the BioWare games up through DA:O. Kinda liked ME2, did not enjoy DA2 or ME3 (hello understatement), but I still hold onto a bit of hope for DA3.

I'm currently re-playing PS:T. Happiness! Planning on some NWN2 next.

Turn based combat is great, but so is pause-n-play, which it seems we'll get. Combat is also far from the most important game aspect to me, but you seem focused on it.

I detest the extreme simplification and consolization that has been happening in the games I enjoy. Kickstarter allowing me to support what I want, instead of what game publishers think I want, has made me so very happy. Obsidian bringing back the game style I most enjoy has made me positively giddy. I don't want them to divert from the IE formula unless absolutely necessary. I expect they may have to somewhat, I just hope it's minimal and unobtrusive.

I love romances. Much more than that, though, I enjoy ALL forms of character interactions and getting-to-really-know-my-party members. I would love a 'best friendship' relationship just as much - if not more - than an actual romance.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but I really think it's far more than simply two factions.

My PE pledge consists of over 1/3rd of my entire monetary expenditure this year for game purchases... and I buy games regularly, and have far outspent my husband this year on games. I've backed 8 projects on Kickstarter, and my PE pledge is more than all the others combined, and I'm considering increasing it. So... I dunno where I fit on your scale. It's not in either of your two factions, though I would consider myself more Traditionalist (in the actual sense of the word) because New is definitely NOT Better.

 

I will admit that you are a bit difficult to categorize, but your affection for DA:O I think clearly puts you in the Bioware faction even if you didn't care for DA2. That seems to be a quite common position actually and I think it may have something to do with all of the Biowarians who are helping with this kickstarter. While it is true that Biowarians who dislike the direction that Bioware seems to be headed in post DA:O are more disenfranchised than those who like that direction (I cannot even imagine how bad DA2 must be) it is still a step above the position of the Traditionalist in terms of being accomodated by modern games actually being published. If you liked DA:O then you don't have a major problem with modern game mechanics and that gives you a much wider selection of games to choose from. An Old Biowarian would of course be expected to show up for what could essentially be seen as the real sequel to BG2, but with quality writing.

Edited October 5, 2012 by metiman

[evdk]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

 

If you enjoyed DA2 it puts you squarely in the "should be culled to prevent breading" group.

[Shades]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

 

If you enjoyed DA2 it puts you squarely in the "should be culled to prevent breading" group.

 

Gotta be careful with all those bakers around, never know what they'll be cooking up next.

[metiman]

Juvenile thread is juvenile.

 

What is the point of this post, metiman? You think you're helping this game by pigeonholing people into "factions", talking about "rifts" and making other generalizations?

 

All you're doing is putting people in a combative mood and reducing the chance of the Obsidian developers taking this forum seriously.

 

No point at all, Infinitron. It's not part of some vast strategy for galactic domination. I just thought the math of the Great Rift of Eternity was kind of interesting. It goes without saying that I am deeply hurt that you feel it is juvenile. I now may have to the offices of Electronic Arts to feel better about myself again. I do see this as a war and there are factions regardless of how you might want to designate them. How could anyone reading this forum possibly deny that? Whether my designations are 100% accurate is beside the point. There are factions. And this is not really even a forum. It is a battlefield.

[BruceVC]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

 

If you enjoyed DA2 it puts you squarely in the "should be culled to prevent breading" group.

 

Gotta be careful with all those bakers around, never know what they'll be cooking up next.

 

Come now lets not be pedantic, we all know he meant "breeding"

 

[evdk]

Come now lets not be pedantic, we all know he meant "breeding"

 

 

OH GOD. That's a rather spectacular mess up. I wondered what was it with the kitchen talk

[Shades]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

 

If you enjoyed DA2 it puts you squarely in the "should be culled to prevent breading" group.

 

Gotta be careful with all those bakers around, never know what they'll be cooking up next.

 

Come now lets not be pedantic, we all know he meant "breeding"

 

 

Sorry, proof reader, it's difficult to resist

 

I'm a little curious, it seems anyone who professes a liking to the Dragon Age series at all gets automatically put into the Bioware 'faction'?

[Crusty]

What a weird thread.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Crusty

[Macbeth]

I'm a little curious, it seems anyone who professes a liking to the Dragon Age series at all gets automatically put into the Bioware 'faction'?

 

Hilarious, isn’t it? This entire thread is, really.

[BruceVC]

Hi Op

 

I appreciate the effort and time you into this post.

 

I enjoyed both DA1&2, and I like the option of Romance/Sex in games like BG2 and the DA series. I want Romance in PE.

 

But my favorite RPG is and was BG2. I can clearly see that the later RPG are "dumbed down" versions of classics like BG, IWD and others

 

I am supporting PE because I want the gaming experience of classic RPG. Where does this put me in grouping?

 

If you enjoyed DA2 it puts you squarely in the "should be culled to prevent breading" group.

 

Gotta be careful with all those bakers around, never know what they'll be cooking up next.

 

Come now lets not be pedantic, we all know he meant "breeding"

 

 

Sorry, proof reader, it's difficult to resist

 

I'm a little curious, it seems anyone who professes a liking to the Dragon Age series at all gets automatically put into the Bioware 'faction'?

 

I agree, I find the Ops premise generalizes too much. My point is you may think that classic RPG were the best but you can also have enjoyed DA1&2. Why does that put you into the Bioware faction, and if so what does that really mean in your ability to support and contribute towards PE?

[andreisiadi]

Maturity means your body has reached it's adult form. Maturity used to describe someones attitude towards an issues is subjective and a logical fallacy. Maturity is not equal to political correctness or mild-mannerism it just means you're biologically an adult. The pride you take in your own so called "maturity" is thus unimpressive.

 

That is not the only use or definition of the word maturity.

 

 

“Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate how a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive, and is not determined by one's age.”

 

Know what you are talking about before posting, thank you.

 

And who decides what is the appropriate manner ? You ? The majority ? Society ? Liberals ? I think I'll decide for myself, thank you.

[metiman]

I'm a little curious, it seems anyone who professes a liking to the Dragon Age series at all gets automatically put into the Bioware 'faction'?

 

Why would that not be the case? Dragon Age seems to be a kind of pivot point around here. If you liked it then you tend to like more modern game mechanics (Yes, I know there are going to be exceptions) and that's basically what the war is about. Traditional vs. Modern game and combat mechanics.

Edited October 5, 2012 by metiman

[Macbeth]

Maturity means your body has reached it's adult form. Maturity used to describe someones attitude towards an issues is subjective and a logical fallacy. Maturity is not equal to political correctness or mild-mannerism it just means you're biologically an adult. The pride you take in your own so called "maturity" is thus unimpressive.

 

That is not the only use or definition of the word maturity.

 

 

“Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate how a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive, and is not determined by one's age.”

 

Know what you are talking about before posting, thank you.

 

And who decides what is the appropriate manner ? You ? The majority ? Society ? Liberals ? I think I'll decide for myself, thank you.

 

That is another question entirely. My post suggested in no way others decide things for you: it merely tackled your all to narrow interpretation of the word maturity. Your ability to completely misread and/or wilfully misinterpret other people’s posts is quite staggering.