Sith historical ties

[The_Prodigal_Knight]

SPAM!

[alcaldemb]

Those of us who have watched Star Wars episodes 4-6,  I am assuming all of us have, should know that the Empire was a reference to the Nazis.  Palpatine's name was taken from the Palatine hill, which was the location of the Roman imperial palace.  What many people may not know is the Sith name might be taken from the Scythians.  If one looks at Korribans location it is to the East on the galactic map, also Herodotus (spelling) called the Scythians the Scyth in his writings.  For those unfamiliar with the Scythians they were a nomadic culture which spawned the Sarmatian, Hun, Khazar, and Mongolian empires.  They lived on the steppe, which is barren compared to Western Europe, and part of their region, the Caucaus mountains, can be very jagged.  Korriban was a mountainous and relatively barren world.  Plus while the Valley of the Sith can be related to the Valley of the Kings in Egypt, the Scythians also practised similiar burial rituals ie burrying a leader with his possesions, and on occasion significant others.  Just a thought.

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Your logic for Korriban is flawed seeing how Korriban was created in the comics and not by George Lucas at all.

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Well it is more of a question about Star Wars in general and not Lucas, since I am relatively certain much of SW is drawn from history or older mythology. For example the Jedi order, outside of the seeming inability to breed, is based on the Guardians in Plato's Republic. So it occured to me that given location and geographic features of planets that the Sith might be based off of the Scythians.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Those of us who have watched Star Wars episodes 4-6,  I am assuming all of us have, should know that the Empire was a reference to the Nazis.  Palpatine's name was taken from the Palatine hill, which was the location of the Roman imperial palace.  What many people may not know is the Sith name might be taken from the Scythians.  If one looks at Korribans location it is to the East on the galactic map, also Herodotus (spelling) called the Scythians the Scyth in his writings.  For those unfamiliar with the Scythians they were a nomadic culture which spawned the Sarmatian, Hun, Khazar, and Mongolian empires.  They lived on the steppe, which is barren compared to Western Europe, and part of their region, the Caucaus mountains, can be very jagged.  Korriban was a mountainous and relatively barren world.  Plus while the Valley of the Sith can be related to the Valley of the Kings in Egypt, the Scythians also practised similiar burial rituals ie burrying a leader with his possesions, and on occasion significant others.  Just a thought.

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Your logic for Korriban is flawed seeing how Korriban was created in the comics and not by George Lucas at all.

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Well it is more of a question about Star Wars in general and not Lucas, since I am relatively certain much of SW is drawn from history or older mythology. For example the Jedi order, outside of the seeming inability to breed, is based on the Guardians in Plato's Republic. So it occured to me that given location and geographic features of planets that the Sith might be based off of the Scythians.

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I would say that the jedi religion is drawn more from eastern philosiphies like Buddhism and Taoism but that is just my opinion.

[alcaldemb]

Those of us who have watched Star Wars episodes 4-6,  I am assuming all of us have, should know that the Empire was a reference to the Nazis.  Palpatine's name was taken from the Palatine hill, which was the location of the Roman imperial palace.  What many people may not know is the Sith name might be taken from the Scythians.  If one looks at Korribans location it is to the East on the galactic map, also Herodotus (spelling) called the Scythians the Scyth in his writings.  For those unfamiliar with the Scythians they were a nomadic culture which spawned the Sarmatian, Hun, Khazar, and Mongolian empires.  They lived on the steppe, which is barren compared to Western Europe, and part of their region, the Caucaus mountains, can be very jagged.  Korriban was a mountainous and relatively barren world.  Plus while the Valley of the Sith can be related to the Valley of the Kings in Egypt, the Scythians also practised similiar burial rituals ie burrying a leader with his possesions, and on occasion significant others.  Just a thought.

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Your logic for Korriban is flawed seeing how Korriban was created in the comics and not by George Lucas at all.

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Well it is more of a question about Star Wars in general and not Lucas, since I am relatively certain much of SW is drawn from history or older mythology. For example the Jedi order, outside of the seeming inability to breed, is based on the Guardians in Plato's Republic. So it occured to me that given location and geographic features of planets that the Sith might be based off of the Scythians.

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I would say that the jedi religion is drawn more from eastern philosiphies like Bubbhism and Taoism but that is just my opinion.

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I thought that too, and while they definatly have a lot in common with eastern philosophies, the purpose they serve is exactly like Plato's Guardians. The Guardians were taken from a young age, trained in war, leadership, and philosophy. They were used to defend the state and serve as its leaders, but in the case of SW they serve more as advisors. You are right that they are heavily influenced by Buddhism and Taoism, but also by Plato's Republic and Monastic orders.

[Blackbishop]

I thought I was the only one that made the connection from the sith to nazi.

 

I did a report in 5th grade on "The influnce of the Nazi and today's world" almost 15 years ago.

 

My history teacher was shocked about the connection I made. He was a SW fan and jewish

[Ivan the Terrible]

On the subject of the Scythians and the Empire:

 

I don't know much about the Scythians, but I'd wager any mind which produced a flappy-eared comic relief character who's best line was 'Ex-squeeze-me?' did not make such a connection.

[alcaldemb]

On the subject of the Scythians and the Empire:

 

I don't know much about the Scythians, but I'd wager any mind which produced a flappy-eared comic relief character who's best line was 'Ex-squeeze-me?' did not make such a connection.

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Ivan you are probably right. Just given the Sith and Scythians names, and the penchant for conquest that the Scythians descendants possesed it seemed like a logical connection. Thats what happens when your a SW fan and the writings of Herodotus all of a sudden have a very similiar word to the wirtings of Lucas.

[Blackbishop]

Wasn't it said that there were no orginal ideas in the world just copies

[Meshugger]

It is well known that totalitarian regimes have a fetish for big parades, but as one can not deny that the empire's whole choice of costumes and general cloth was inspired by the Nazis.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

It is well known that totalitarian regimes have a fetish for big parades, but as one can not deny that the empire's whole choice of costumes and general cloth was inspired by the Nazis.

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They just look like military uniforms! As do the Nazis, there uniforms where nothing out of the ordinary.

[Jarx Xun]

does it really matter that GL might have gained inspiration from the Nazi's for his creative work? Does that make him a nazi to americans? Is that why people are against this connection. I'm sure though that GL has said that the Empire was inspired by the nazi regime, however I have no proof to back up that statement so I dunno.

[Ivan the Terrible]

??? 

In my experience in history, all dictators have been this way. All the way to ancient Greece.

And has anyone even thought of that in Episodes 4-6, the word Sith hasnt even been used?

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You're missing the forest for the trees, though. As an individual puzzle piece, it means nothing; connected, it's pretty clear.

 

- Minions who call themselves Stormtroopers (though they had different functions in the two states; in the Empire, they're the grunt soldiers, and in the Nazi regime they were the brown-shirted thugs who beat up opponents of the Nazis prior to Hitler seizing power but never had any real military function.)

 

- Officers in Feldgrau (Field Grey), usually associated with the World War II German army.

 

- While the whole 'Emperor hates non-humans' thing is mostly a product of the EU, one can't help but notice that the OT's Imperial officer corps consisted entirely of white male humans.

 

- An emphasis on 'super-weapons' to bring victory. German propaganda towards the end of the war always focused on 'wonder weapons' which were about to be rolled out which would save Germany from defeat, but which actually sapped a tremendous amount of their resources for very little practical gain; by the same token, the Empire builds one monolithic Death Star rather than god only knows how many Star Destroyers they could've built using that time and those resources only to see it disappear because of a single X-Wing fighter.

 

Anecdotal evidence on it's own, admittedly....but seriously, I'm utterly baffled how people can deny the connections. I've certainly never heard Lucas deny it, and to me it seems patently obvious.

[alcaldemb]

??? 

In my experience in history, all dictators have been this way. All the way to ancient Greece.

And has anyone even thought of that in Episodes 4-6, the word Sith hasnt even been used?

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You're missing the forest for the trees, though. As an individual puzzle piece, it means nothing; connected, it's pretty clear.

 

- Minions who call themselves Stormtroopers (though they had different functions in the two states; in the Empire, they're the grunt soldiers, and in the Nazi regime they were the brown-shirted thugs who beat up opponents of the Nazis prior to Hitler seizing power but never had any real military function.)

 

- Officers in Feldgrau (Field Grey), usually associated with the World War II German army.

 

- While the whole 'Emperor hates non-humans' thing is mostly a product of the EU, one can't help but notice that the OT's Imperial officer corps consisted entirely of white male humans.

 

- An emphasis on 'super-weapons' to bring victory. German propaganda towards the end of the war always focused on 'wonder weapons' which were about to be rolled out which would save Germany from defeat, but which actually sapped a tremendous amount of their resources for very little practical gain; by the same token, the Empire builds one monolithic Death Star rather than god only knows how many Star Destroyers they could've built using that time and those resources only to see it disappear because of a single X-Wing fighter.

 

Anecdotal evidence on it's own, admittedly....but seriously, I'm utterly baffled how people can deny the connections. I've certainly never heard Lucas deny it, and to me it seems patently obvious.

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Thank you Ivan, I really do not understand the anathema people have towards making a connection between the two. Infact since GL makes the Empire out to be a personification of evil doesn't it stand to reason that using the Nazis as a model would not be offensive to anyone. The officers uniforms, Vaders helmet, the use of black grey and brown, all are indicative of the Nazis having been an inspiration for the Empire. It is just amazing that some people continue to argue with us on what seems to be pretty clear.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

??? 

In my experience in history, all dictators have been this way. All the way to ancient Greece.

And has anyone even thought of that in Episodes 4-6, the word Sith hasnt even been used?

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You're missing the forest for the trees, though. As an individual puzzle piece, it means nothing; connected, it's pretty clear.

 

- Minions who call themselves Stormtroopers (though they had different functions in the two states; in the Empire, they're the grunt soldiers, and in the Nazi regime they were the brown-shirted thugs who beat up opponents of the Nazis prior to Hitler seizing power but never had any real military function.)

 

- Officers in Feldgrau (Field Grey), usually associated with the World War II German army.

 

- While the whole 'Emperor hates non-humans' thing is mostly a product of the EU, one can't help but notice that the OT's Imperial officer corps consisted entirely of white male humans.

 

- An emphasis on 'super-weapons' to bring victory. German propaganda towards the end of the war always focused on 'wonder weapons' which were about to be rolled out which would save Germany from defeat, but which actually sapped a tremendous amount of their resources for very little practical gain; by the same token, the Empire builds one monolithic Death Star rather than god only knows how many Star Destroyers they could've built using that time and those resources only to see it disappear because of a single X-Wing fighter.

 

Anecdotal evidence on it's own, admittedly....but seriously, I'm utterly baffled how people can deny the connections. I've certainly never heard Lucas deny it, and to me it seems patently obvious.

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Thank you Ivan, I really do not understand the anathema people have towards making a connection between the two. Infact since GL makes the Empire out to be a personification of evil doesn't it stand to reason that using the Nazis as a model would not be offensive to anyone. The officers uniforms, Vaders helmet, the use of black grey and brown, all are indicative of the Nazis having been an inspiration for the Empire. It is just amazing that some people continue to argue with us on what seems to be pretty clear.

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I dont understand why u insist on linking it to the nazis! There have been many evil regimes over the milenia that will have paralells to the empire. Why does it have to be the nazis? Because u came up with the idea?

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

How about this:

 

Communists took control first of Russia and later of many other countries. They created totalitarian dictatorships. In this form of government a small group of people seize power and take complete control of the government. Using the mass media a mass political party grows up demanding change in society. Secret police and networks of spies enable the state to smother opposition. The state takes control over all forms of expression including art, science and religion.

 

In April 1918 the Bolshevik secret police (The Cheka) raided 26 Anarchist centres in Moscow. 40 Anarchists were killed or injured and over 500 imprisoned (3). In May the leading Anarchist publications were closed down(4). Both of these events occurred before the excuse of the outbreak of the Civil War could be used as a 'justification'. These raids occurred because the Bolsheviks were beginning to lose the arguments about the running of Russian industry.

 

 

Does this sound familiar! Sounds very much like what happen during the SW saga to me! But it's nothing to do with the Nazis.

 

Palpatine used his force abilities to suppress resistance to his progress to chancellor.

 

Source

Source 2

[Powerslave]

http://solohq.com/Articles/Lamont/No_Case_...he_Empire.shtml

<---- A good read, points out evidence that The Empire is not actually as evil as most people would have it

 

BTW, Vader's helmet was created when Lucas, in his confusion as to how to make the helmet, combined a Roman helmet with a medieval jousting mask (you can see this is true if you look at the 2 different components of the helm). Thus, I do not believe he had ANYTHING related to Nazi Germany in mind when he created that helmet.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

So there are many other possible sources of inspiration, not just the nazis. Why cant u accept that alcaldemb?

[GeneralCrimson]

I think its pretty obvious Darth sun tzu is either german or pro Nazi. I see no reason to continue to argue with him cause hes the only one who doesnt accept the connection between the empire and the nazis. Let him deny the obvious in his ignorance

[GeneralCrimson]

Btw i forgot where but i saw somewhere that vader means father in either german or dutch most likely german i think and darth has something to do with position in power like king or emperor

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

Btw i forgot where but i saw somewhere that vader means father in either german or dutch most likely german i think and darth has something to do with position in power like king or emperor

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It was dutch i'm afraid!

[alcaldemb]

So there are many other possible sources of inspiration, not just the nazis. Why cant u accept that alcaldemb?

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The first post was to say the Sith may have been drawn from the Scythians. Could other totalitatian regimes serves as inspiration for the Empire, yes, but most people are agreed that GL drew much of his inspiration for the Empire from the Nazis. Just look at the way that Palpatine came to power, the military buildup that followed, it all mirrors Hitler's rise. What I fail to understand is why it seems to be so offensive to you that GL probably used the Nazis as inspiration. The Bolshiveks took over by revolution from outside of government, and Hitler from within which is exactly what Palpatine did. So yes while GL did get Palpatines name from Rome (Palatine), much of the inspiration for the Empire is from the Nazi regime, with only other small aspects being drawn from other nations (the Imperial guards red uniforms probably drawn from Roman Praetorian guard).

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

I think its pretty obvious Darth sun tzu is either german or pro Nazi. I see no reason to continue to argue with him cause hes the only one who doesnt accept the connection between the empire and the nazis. Let him deny the obvious in his ignorance

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Wrong again, i'm neither.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

So there are many other possible sources of inspiration, not just the nazis. Why cant u accept that alcaldemb?

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The first post was to say the Sith may have been drawn from the Scythians. Could other totalitatian regimes serves as inspiration for the Empire, yes, but most people are agreed that GL drew much of his inspiration for the Empire from the Nazis. Just look at the way that Palpatine came to power, the military buildup that followed, it all mirrors Hitler's rise. What I fail to understand is why it seems to be so offensive to you that GL probably used the Nazis as inspiration. The Bolshiveks took over by revolution from outside of government, and Hitler from within which is exactly what Palpatine did. So yes while GL did get Palpatines name from Rome (Palatine), much of the inspiration for the Empire is from the Nazi regime, with only other small aspects being drawn from other nations (the Imperial guards red uniforms probably drawn from Roman Praetorian guard).

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I would not be too suprised if GL did use the nazis as inspiration. I just think you are over stating the case as they are many other Dictatorships that share similarities with Palpatine's rise to power.

[jedipodo]

the discussion is nonesense.

Fact is, that George Lucas had to make clear who the bad guys are for the needs of the average (stupid?) viewer at cinema. For that what is simpler than using sterotypes? The helmet of Vader has contributed to that, of course!

 

PS: we totally forgot "Darth" Stalin in our dictator list

[Ivan the Terrible]

Does this sound familiar! Sounds very much like what happen during the SW saga to me! But  it's nothing to do with the Nazis.

 

Palpatine used his force abilities to suppress resistance to his progress to chancellor.

 

Source

Source 2

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The Soviets seized power with the purported objective of creating a 'classless' society in which all people were equal and the working class and proletariat had absolute control, after the supposed 'transitionary phase' of absolute dictatorship. They were a dictatorship that pretended to hold on to power for a limited time, claiming to be preparing the way for a 'better' society.

 

The Nazis seized power with the purported objective of absolute dictatorship, with a strict hierarchy leading up to one all-powerful leader who could make decisions quickly and efficiently, without the encumbrace of Senates and commitees and such. They seized power, and they never pretended they were ever going to give it up.

 

Which sounds closer to the Empire?