The Monk Class

[Shadenuat]

I know what you think you're getting at, but your ignoring the mystical (defensive auras) and training (mobility, dodging, reaction times etc) elements common to most Monk/Martial Arts lore in Fiction to make the point. It comes down to the same thing, the Monk has multiple layers of defenses, most notably the mystical ones that often take the place or combine with martial training to make up for the lack of armor.

 

You are arguing my point from motive taken from another poster.

I'm saying that it's not fair for monks to do same if not better damage and having same if not better armor like the class which has to rely on expensive weapons and armor, when you... have a class which relies on expensive weapons and armor. That's what they usually do, they are fighters for "poor".

 

Though, just to tickle you, I too hate it when DM tries to create an adventure around some specific culture/myth/historical period and there's that guy, that ****ing random guy who always brings a kung-fu monk into party of knight templar, priest and witch.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Amentep]

Since they're building the world from the ground up, I hope that they can give the Monk its own flavor within the context of the world, not just drop a shaolin fighter into the middle of the game.

 

I also think that its possible to find them a role within the party so that there is a reason to have a fighter or a reason to have a monk (or both) and not feel like you're missing something.

[Gyges]

I'd like to see them as more enlightened men and women, but in a pragmatic way that allows them the morals to go out in the world to decrease the amount of suffering by way of their fists.

[Shadenuat]

I also think that its possible to find them a role within the party so that there is a reason to have a fighter or a reason to have a monk (or both) and not feel like you're missing something.

 

Well if they'd separate armor and armor class, like add absorption rating for armor, and AC would work like dodge, Monk could be a dodge-like character - hard to hit, but when he gets hit, it hurts. At least that would secure tanking role for fighters.

Still I'm not a fan of creating a class based around hitting stuff with it's fists. I always though martial arts were created for different purposes - ceremonic and sports, to substitute for lack of weapons, or by fighting class to have to do something when your weapon breaks. Before Samurai would go all jujutsu on opponent, he probably had to lose his bow and arrows, break yari, and break both swords. If you can channel your "soul" through a vial of poisonous liquid, what's the problem with sword?

Edited October 5, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Elerond]

Martial arts don't mean necessarily unarmed combat. For example samurai were experts of kendo, which is style of sword fighting and kyudo, which is style of archery.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Martial_arts

Edited October 5, 2012 by Elerond

[Ashram]

Martial Art is completely ineffective against armoured and armed opponents, so yes, I am completely against introducing such a illogical immersion breaking class to any game.

 

As immersion breaking as being able to toss fireballs from your hands, or speak with animals and summon creatures from the abyss? Come on, this is high fantasy. Anything is fair game. We aren't playing medieval times....or conquer the realms via Total War. Its supposed to be logical enough to not be complete cheese, but its fantasy....fake...imaginative...fun. A knight in full plate with a longsword versus a shaoilin master...who is going to win? All the monk would have to do is knock him on his arse and its lights out. The knight wouldn't be able to get up. Lets keep an open mind about things.

[Umberlin]

Since they're building the world from the ground up, I hope that they can give the Monk its own flavor within the context of the world, not just drop a shaolin fighter into the middle of the game.

 

I don't get this 'Shaolin' thing people keep bringing up.

 

If by Shaolin you mean, "He doesn't wear plate armor" which, yeah, he doesn't. He looks like he wears a combination of Cloth and Leather at the most. Which is quite apt for what the Class seems to be trying for.

 

If by Shaolin you, "He doesn't use weapons, he uses his fist," then, yeah. He uses his fists. We have an example of the Monk in this setting, and a lore example of how magic can be used. This Monk in the art obviously enhances himself magically to have superhuman attributes.

 

Though I'd note actual Shaolin Monks train with swords and other weapons as well (you can see some interesting video documentaries of it). I'd also just plain note that the Monk in P:E's art looks nothing like a Shaolin Monk. This is a picture of a Shaolin Monk:

 

 

The picture of the adventurers, including the Monk, for P:E, looks nothing like the above.

 

Martial arts don't mean necessarily unarmed combat. For example samurai were experts of kendo, which is style of sword fighting and kyudo, which is style of archery.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Martial_arts

 

Well the Art we've been shown doesn't show them using Swords or Bows, and instead shows the Monk with fists sheathed in magical energy. Kind of speaks for itself what martial arts means in the context of 'this' Monk.

 

I'm saying that it's not fair for monks to do same if not better damage and having same if not better armor like the class which has to rely on expensive weapons and armor, when you... have a class which relies on expensive weapons and armor. That's what they usually do, they are fighters for "poor".

 

Who says they don't? Even D&D a Monk used gear. It may not have been plate armor, or a sword, but it had to earned or bought just the same. Your issue seems to be created of pretending things don't exist . . . that do typically exist in any number of RPGs, even for Monk styled unarmed characters.

 

In some settings the equipment they are are Focus styled items that help them focus their inner energies. In others the focus are a glove type item that helps them release melee range bursts of energy, or even direct longer ranged bursts. D&D handled it another way. That worked too. Honestly this Monk seems little different than the D&D Monk and the D&D Monk had several builds, some unarmed, and others used 'exotic' weapons like Kamas or other such weapons.

 

There are plenty of ways a hand-to-hand combat Monk in a fantasy setting would use gear. Now if your issue is just going to be, "They don't have to buy plate and a sword" then . . . oh well, because they'll likely still have to buy gear of some sort. I really don't want to see another game Diablo III style where everyone ends up in Heavy Armor of some sort.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Umberlin

[junk11]

Martial Art is completely ineffective against armoured and armed opponents, so yes, I am completely against introducing such a illogical immersion breaking class to any game.

 

actually, some of the "old" martial arts are focus (or partially focus) on against armoured person when you lost or without your weapon in close range.

how to disarm and strike joints or weakness.

The martial arts we often see in movie are often for entertaining purpose..or having rules and limitations in sport events.

martial art isn't about fist and kick, they do include some weapon trainings as weapon is an extension of our body.

Nowaday we wear less metal on battlefield, so we developed something more useful like CQC for close combat.

 

Because of the eastern culture, martial arts are often associated with spirtuality.

This is the way to distiguish well educated martial artists and those "bandits or barbarians" in eastern culture.

From the devotion of spritual trainning comes with famous shaolin monks, then linked to western monks for their devotion to god.

Finally It created a "lawful" class monk in games like DnD.

 

To distinguish from fighters, comes unarmed combat.

But even DnD did not restrict monk class to use barehand, there are monk weapons...

It's really just a stereotype within a stereotype..

 

But really, why do we complain about a person who can channel his soul/inner power to enhance his body to destory/damage partially a well armour guy when a wizard in the same world can throw fireball from afar and kill several well armed soldiers?

Edited October 5, 2012 by junk11

[junk11]

Since they're building the world from the ground up, I hope that they can give the Monk its own flavor within the context of the world, not just drop a shaolin fighter into the middle of the game.

 

I don't get this 'Shaolin' thing people keep bringing up.

 

If by Shaolin you mean, "He doesn't wear plate armor" which, yeah, he doesn't. He looks like he wears a combination of Cloth and Leather at the most. Which is quite apt for what the Class seems to be trying for.

 

If by Shaolin you, "He doesn't use weapons, he uses his fist," then, yeah. He uses his fists. We have an example of the Monk in this setting, and a lore example of how magic can be used. This Monk in the art obviously enhances himself magically to have superhuman attributes.

 

Though I'd note actual Shaolin Monks train with swords and other weapons as well (you can see some interesting video documentaries of it). I'd also just plain note that the Monk in P:E's art looks nothing like a Shaolin Monk. This is a picture of a Shaolin Monk:

 

 

The picture of the adventurers, including the Monk, for P:E, looks nothing like the above.

 

Martial arts don't mean necessarily unarmed combat. For example samurai were experts of kendo, which is style of sword fighting and kyudo, which is style of archery.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Martial_arts

 

Well the Art we've been shown doesn't show them using Swords or Bows, and instead shows the Monk with fists sheathed in magical energy. Kind of speaks for itself what martial arts means in the context of 'this' Monk.

 

the monk in PE art has a sword/dagger tied on his belt if you look closely

[Umberlin]

the monk in PE art has a sword/dagger tied on his belt if you look closely

 

Good eye.

 

 

Actually I'm sure it's a weapon, but I'm not sure whether it's a dagger/sword as you say, or a blunt weapon. In the large version I originally looked at the end looks more blunted, almost like a baton/nightstick design. It fits that we have something like this though, since the classes seem to pull a lot from D&D. Their Monks as I mentioned earlier had an unarmed build, as well as several builds using weapons, exotic weapons and such.

[Nonek]

As well as the spurning of steel I wouldn't mind if the monk character had to choose between certain schools of thought, philosophical ideals that he had to uphold within a playthrough. Such as a vow of non violence where he may only defend himself and never initiate combat, poverty where he must never have more than say ten gold coins upon his person or perhaps even silence where he uses sign language like Christine in Dead Money. Yes try that persuausion check now my good man, be an accomplishment all the sweeter if successful.

[Shadenuat]

the monk in PE art has a sword/dagger tied on his belt if you look closely

Looks more like a scrollcase.

 

In some settings the equipment they are are Focus styled items that help them focus their inner energies. In others the focus are a glove type item that helps them release melee range bursts of energy, or even direct longer ranged bursts.

I really don't want to see another game Diablo III style where everyone ends up in Heavy Armor of some sort.

 

Both of these approaches just lead Monk class away from his pretended concept. If you need mythical shinanigan to spread your beliefs of living simple life and being self-sufficient, you're doing it wrong. And obviously, MMO-like armor would't help either. This means that to prove his point, monk should be effective just in robe and using his fists (like in Wizardry 8, for example). But managing your equipment has it's own strategic value in RPGs.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Amentep]

Since they're building the world from the ground up, I hope that they can give the Monk its own flavor within the context of the world, not just drop a shaolin fighter into the middle of the game.

 

I don't get this 'Shaolin' thing people keep bringing up.

 

If by Shaolin you mean, "He doesn't wear plate armor" which, yeah, he doesn't. He looks like he wears a combination of Cloth and Leather at the most. Which is quite apt for what the Class seems to be trying for.

 

If by Shaolin you, "He doesn't use weapons, he uses his fist," then, yeah. He uses his fists. We have an example of the Monk in this setting, and a lore example of how magic can be used. This Monk in the art obviously enhances himself magically to have superhuman attributes.

 

Though I'd note actual Shaolin Monks train with swords and other weapons as well (you can see some interesting video documentaries of it). I'd also just plain note that the Monk in P:E's art looks nothing like a Shaolin Monk. This is a picture of a Shaolin Monk:

 

 

The picture of the adventurers, including the Monk, for P:E, looks nothing like the above.

 

I was more talking about the philosophy behind the Shaolin monastary being an outgrowth of real world Buddhism; obviously if the vision for a PE Monk is based in any way on Shaolin monks, they're still going to need to change what the monks believe in, so that it fits the setting (and thus the clothing associated with Shaolin monks and other things aren't necessarily going to follow through).

 

And yes, Shaolin Monks train - as far as I know - with the 18 arms of Wushu (sabre, spear, straight sword, staff, halberd, axe, battle axe, hook sword, trident, chain whip, mace, hammer, talon, trident-halberd, long handed spear, cudgel, walking stick and meteor hammer).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxPO6nwQvxY

[Umberlin]

Both of these approaches just lead Monk class away from his pretended concept. If you need mythical shinanigan to spread your beliefs of living simple life and being self-sufficient, you're doing it wrong.

 

What are you on about? We don't know what philosophies the Monk of this setting abides by. It's a high fantasy setting for a game, not a historical documentary.

 

I was more talking about the philosophy behind the Shaolin monastary being an outgrowth of real world Buddhism; obviously if the vision for a PE Monk is based in any way on Shaolin monks, they're still going to need to change what the monks believe in, so that it fits the setting (and thus the clothing associated with Shaolin monks and other things aren't necessarily going to follow through).

 

Why would you think in the midst of a high fantasy setting you'd find Buddhism? Monks, and Monk styled classes, in most RPG settings you'll come across have philosophies unique to the setting. They aren't going to insert real world religion of any sort into the game. It's a fantasy game. Not a historical documentary. This isn't even a question, it's automatic.

 

And yes, Shaolin Monks train - as far as I know - with the 18 arms of Wushu (sabre, spear, straight sword, staff, halberd, axe, battle axe, hook sword, trident, chain whip, mace, hammer, talon, trident-halberd, long handed spear, cudgel, walking stick and meteor hammer).

 

Which is just really neat to watch by the way. Actually even apart from the weapon training, one video is just a series of excersizes, mostly stretching, that are impressive in their own right.

[Elerond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxPO6nwQvxY&feature=player_detailpage#t=2583s

This part of that video will tell you why monks don't need armour :D

 

Some reason timestamp don't work in embedded player

Edited October 5, 2012 by Elerond

[Shadenuat]

Why would you think in the midst of a high fantasy setting you'd find Buddhism? Monks, and Monk styled classes, in most RPG settings you'll come across have philosophies unique to the setting. They aren't going to insert real world religion of any sort into the game. It's a fantasy game. Not a historical documentary. This isn't even a question, it's automatic.

 

Lmao. First you use High Fantasy idea to prove that monks can exist, and now you use it to prove that monks can't exist.

[Amentep]

I was more talking about the philosophy behind the Shaolin monastary being an outgrowth of real world Buddhism; obviously if the vision for a PE Monk is based in any way on Shaolin monks, they're still going to need to change what the monks believe in, so that it fits the setting (and thus the clothing associated with Shaolin monks and other things aren't necessarily going to follow through).

 

Why would you think in the midst of a high fantasy setting you'd find Buddhism? Monks, and Monk styled classes, in most RPG settings you'll come across have philosophies unique to the setting. They aren't going to insert real world religion of any sort into the game. It's a fantasy game. Not a historical documentary. This isn't even a question, it's automatic.

 

I don't think they will. I said I hope they won't. I think we're actually agreeing on this!

 

And yes, Shaolin Monks train - as far as I know - with the 18 arms of Wushu (sabre, spear, straight sword, staff, halberd, axe, battle axe, hook sword, trident, chain whip, mace, hammer, talon, trident-halberd, long handed spear, cudgel, walking stick and meteor hammer).

 

Which is just really neat to watch by the way. Actually even apart from the weapon training, one video is just a series of excersizes, mostly stretching, that are impressive in their own right.

 

Yes, it is. Very impressive; I admire their dedication.

[Amentep]

Why would you think in the midst of a high fantasy setting you'd find Buddhism? Monks, and Monk styled classes, in most RPG settings you'll come across have philosophies unique to the setting. They aren't going to insert real world religion of any sort into the game. It's a fantasy game. Not a historical documentary. This isn't even a question, it's automatic.

 

Lmao. First you use High Fantasy idea to prove that monks can exist, and now you use it to prove that monks can't exist.

 

Actually I think its more like "High Fantasy proves the idea that monks who punch through armor and evade blows can exist and because it is high fantasy it won't be using real world religions, like Buddhism."

[Umberlin]

Lmao. First you use High Fantasy idea to prove that monks can exist, and now you use it to prove that monks can't exist.

 

. . . what . . .

 

Английское не ваш первичный язык?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxPO6nwQvxY&feature=player_detailpage#t=2583s

This part of that video will tell you why monks don't need armour :D

 

Some reason timestamp don't work in embedded player

 

I see what you were talking about though.

 

 

I don't think they will. I said I hope they won't. I think we're actually agreeing on this!

 

Well, yeah, I'm just not sure why you'd worry. It doesn't seem likely they'd do that at all.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Umberlin

[Shadenuat]

. . . what . . .

1.21 gigawatt. What's a monk, Umberlin?

Edited October 5, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Umberlin]

You need to . . . reread . . . everything . . . slowly . . .

[Shadenuat]

 

Okay, forget it.

Here's a kitten for you

[Damkyan]

Mhm, personally I don't understand the problem with "kung fu" monks. After all, this is fantasy, and we can use knowledge and resources of every countries or religions that we knows. Only using European our Asian stereotypes is not very good. As I know it, we could also make Muslim priests because priests exist in every religions. Having the choice to do characters from different cultures is a plus. Like Kara-tur in the forgotten realms. So yes, if the monk class is in the game I'd like to play it as a shaolin-ascetic warrior.

[Doxy]

I personally love monks in rpgs.

IWD or NWN monks are the best, but all of them seem to lack armor choices.

They are always either naked or wear same robe with different colours throughout the whole game.

Hate to bring D3 here, but some of the monk armors look very nice and have enough metal on them to not hinder monks movements.

So this brings me to the whole should monk be kung-fu or not.

He should! Its the reason alot of people pick monks in rpgs.

A warrior who focuses on his body, soul and uses his arms as deadly weapons.

Here is what an ideal monk in rpgs should look like

[trulez]

If anyone, with a bit of training, can channel their soul to either defensive or offensive powers that rival any weapon or armor, then why are weapons and armors not obsolete ?

A fighter who moves and strikes without any encumbrance is surely faster, more accurate and harder to hit than one encased in steel.

 

There is no need for two different disciplines of fighting skills to co-exist if one does the same job better than the other, it would be only logical that EVERYONE would switch to the one that is better (par few conservatives).